[wolf_2099]

Dancer;334168 said:

Skinner is definitely below Dassem in terms of Swordsmanship.

I agree, but not by much. I'd put him in with Karsa and Rake.

When you have size, strength, magic, etc to rely on, you don't need to necessarily develop as much skill.

[Lisheo]

Karsa would annihilate Skinner, I'm sorry, but Karsa is the best swordsman in the Malaz world apart from the First, Brys and Dassem!

[wolf_2099]

Lisheo;334186 said:

Karsa would annihilate Skinner, I'm sorry, but Karsa is the best swordsman in the Malaz world apart from the First, Brys and Dassem!

Why? I fucking hate it when people don't bother trying to back up their examples. (It also doesn't help I really really dislike Karsa.) Skinner has managed to to hold his own against Dassem. Dassem is well, Dassem. Brys had his run in with Rhulad. The first is again, the First, we've seen how scary the third is.

The guy can shrug off magic, play around with a sword pretty well, when has he demonstrated greatness with a sword? What makes him so great?

Iron Bars managed to hold off the gods, and kill a segulah, Rake killed a demon, Whiskeyjack should have had Kallor, they're all good swordsman, but what makes Karsa stand out?

he fought Icarium (sp?) yes? But I cannot for the life me of think of a time Icarium fought anyone else, or any examples that would make him a great swordsman. Scary as hell with magic yes, but a sword?

[Lisheo]

Iccy doesnt use magic, he goes berserker, for want of a better term. Massive strength. Im gonna be honest with you, while Karsa shows no sign of excellent swordsmanship, he is FAST. And he is STRONG. All it would take for him to kill Skinner would be a parry, and then an extremely fast slice like he demonstrated on Siballe.

[Binder of Demons]

Since I haven't read RotCG or TtH, I can't really say how good Skinner actually is with a sword (i assume those might shed more light on his prowess?).
But we only know he walked away from his confrontation with Dassem.

Quote

.....Dassem had slain every one who had challenged him: Shirdar, Keal, Bartok. Only Skinner, they say, had come away alive from their clash."

I've no doubt he is well skilled but there are many ways he could have escaped being killed, especially when magic is involved.
Also, when Iron Bars is showing off his skills, Corlo thinks aloud that he may be just as good as Skinner.

Quote

It had been said, by Guardsmen who would know, that he was nearly a match to Skinner. And now Corlo believed it." (MT, UK HC, p.661)

And we then see how far beyond that level that Silchas was.

And in another bit of roundabout reasoning. We have Trull nearly killing Silchas. And yet, from back in MT Trull expresses his shock at Brys' ability.

I think that pretty well establishes Brys as something truly special. I would say that Dassem is at least at that level judging by the way people refer to him. And having seen the ability of Mok, then by extension the Seguleh 1st must also be exceptional.

Karsa, seems to be a very adept swordsman and his amazing power allied to his surprising speed makes him a very dangerous opponent. Considering how easily he defeated the Seguleh in the champions area, when we know she was incredibly fast, means we can't take him in any way lightly.

I think Brys, Dassem and the Seguleh 1st are at the top.
Everyone else is at least a level below. Karsa and Mok probably are next. With possibly a reborn Tool somewhere around here too. It's possible Rake goes in here too.

Everyone else we've seen is below this IMO. Skinner, Iron Bars, Kallor, Whiskeyjack, and even Temper have all shown their skill at some time but none have been proven to be able to take out those higher up.

That's my 2¢

[magicrealist]

wolf_2099;334149 said:

I quite like Dassem, but I like Brys more.

Remember the fight with Rhulad, he didn't just beat him.
He severed the guys freaking tendons and muscles so he could no longer move. All of them. As said, he performed freaking surgery with a sword.

That would require knowledge of the body like the Segulah have, and a ridiculous amount of control.

I like to think of Brys, Dassem and the First as the best swords man. Followed by Rake and Karsa.

I don't put karsa up there as well I think he is very very good, I just haven't seen anything to put him on the level as the other guys. He is big, strong and quick, but never came of as as deft with a blade as the other.

Same with Rake, that and, his efforts would be focused on magic and sword play, rather than just focusing oin being a great swordsman.

Karsa manhandled the 12th seguleh. MANHANDLED. Thats damn impressive. The 12th seguleh is no slouch either.

[wolf_2099]

magicrealist;334233 said:

Karsa manhandled the 12th seguleh. MANHANDLED. Thats damn impressive. The 12th seguleh is no slouch either.

So? She was a woman. They probably only let her in to fill their equal oppurtunity employment quota.

Didn't he just stomp the ground to get her off-balance then pick her up by her leg or something?

[buddhacat]

wolf_2099;334237 said:

So? She was a woman. They probably only let her in to fill their equal oppurtunity employment quota.

Women are just worthless pieces of meat, ain't they? Couldn't get anywhere without them quotas that take away jobs from us mighty men, eh?

Fucking chauvinist pig.

[magicrealist]

wolf_2099;334237 said:

So? She was a woman. They probably only let her in to fill their equal oppurtunity employment quota.

Didn't he just stomp the ground to get her off-balance then pick her up by her leg or something?

The 12th seguleh is one of the best swordsman on the planet though. Period. Karsa treated her like a toy. I don't care what sex you are, that is an impressive feat.

[wolf_2099]

buddhacat;334257 said:

Women are just worthless pieces of meat, ain't they? Couldn't get anywhere without them quotas that take away jobs from us mighty men, eh?

Yeesh, take a joke, why don't ya?

Although, I do ask again, didn't Karsa just stomp the ground to get her off-balance then pick her up by her leg or something?

[Ursus]

wolf_2099;334287 said:

Although, I do ask again, didn't Karsa just stomp the ground to get her off-balance then pick her up by her leg or something?

Yes, that is correct. It was pretty anticlimactic.

Edit:
Which doesnt mean that the seguleh 12th was in any ways a bad fighter. Karsa is one of the Big Names in the series. I'd probably bet on Icarum if he and Karsa faced off...probably. What is a Seguleh to that?

[wolf_2099]

Ursus;334301 said:

Which doesnt mean that the seguleh 12th was in any ways a bad fighter. Karsa is one of the Big Names in the series. I'd probably bet on Icarum if he and Karsa faced off...probably. What is a Seguleh to that?

To me it just seems like Karsa is a ridiculous Dues Ex Machina. To me he was billed as a very tough, but very skilled fighter. But he's strong enough to stomp the ground to make a seasoned fighter loose their footing? Seems ridiculous to me, But I am veering off-topic.

[Deuce]

magicrealist;334233 said:

Karsa manhandled the 12th seguleh. MANHANDLED. Thats damn impressive. The 12th seguleh is no slouch either.

That's true but I believe they were all discussing swordsmanship. That is pure fighting Karsa displays. Brute strength along with tactical. But not a display of of his ability with a sword. Even the greatest fight he probably had against the Deragoth IIRC was mainly about his tenacity and strength than his ability with a sword. Of course he's a good swordsman but we haven't seen a level of exhibition that we have seen with Dasseem, Brys or even a Mok (who is all we really have to judge the Seguleh 1st by).

In the end it's all speculation and sometimes just hard to compare one to another. In example, some are leaving Rake below Daseem, Brys and such. Yet Rake was the 7th but only after being too exhausted to keep fighting the wave of challenges. He wasn't defeated. So do we know how good he really is with the sword? Not really because we haven't seen it as much as some others and he has mainly used his magic in his scattered appearences. But hearing about him fighting constantly and climbing the ranks of a warrior society until he was just simply tired was impressive.

[Oseric]

Dassem, Brys, and Seguleh 1st

top three no doubt, and these duels would be sick as hell to see

[Sotgnomen]

You guys need to refine the definitions here a bit.
Are we looking for the best swordsman, as in plain skills? Then I understand disqualifying Karsa, being that he is superhuman fast and strong. but be fair then. Dont say Brys would be crushed by Traveller with Vengeance, this would hardly be a fair fight either.
Withdraw all ascendant and racial advantages, and it would be very difficult to range accomplishments.
If I should guess, I would say
-Dassem(based on rep)
-Brys(maybe up there with Dassem, certainly I cant see how anyone could beat him in MT, but difficult to compare)
-Seguleh 1st, assuming he is in fact mortal(also maybe up at the top, seeing how the third beat a supernaturally enhanced First Sword of Imass)
Anyone else I cant see having a prayer.

If thinking merely who could beat who, skills notwithstanding, I dont see who could rank above Karsa. Several up there with him, I would not put money on a match of karsa and icarium, and thus by extention dassem.
Maybe the new and improved Brys could compete also, but as merely a Mortal Sword, I doubt it.
An ascendant 1st seguleh might be up there, we just dont know enough. Anywhere from all-poweful to barely ascended. As for Mok beating Tool, I just dont think it's quite up to scale. Tool vs any of the first three, and Im certain floors would be wiped.
Rake Im not sure of. I cant quite remember the sequence in MoI. My impression was he did not get tired fighting the Seguleh up to seven, he simply got bored. Feel free to correct. But I think he would be at the top. He beat Draconus, and as for him I simply refer to the RotG prologue. See what big powers feared to face him(if current speculation on this forum is correct as to their identity)

[Silencer]

"Lady Envy: 'Anomander Rake once crossed blades with a score of Seguleh, one after the other. He’d paid an unannounced visit to the island – knowing nothing of the inhabitants. Taking human form and fashioning a mask for himself, he elected to walk down the city’s main thoroughfare. Being naturally arrogant, he showed no deference to any who crossed his path...Two bells. That was the full duration of Rake’s visit to the island and its people. He described the ferocity of that short time, and his dismay and exhaustion which led him to withdraw into his warren if only to slow the hammering of his heart.'"

That's the quote. Envy also seemed quite certain that Mok would get killed by Rake, even with Senu and Thurule backing him up - remember her little rant about "do you know where the souls of those Seguleh ended up"?
I think we can put Rake up there. A score of Seguleh and the 7th thereof.....and he was just a little tired.

[muco]

I remember in an interview where Erikson states that people tend to underestimate Karsa and it might be true with regards to his sword skill too.

Just a few things I noticed in the books.

Like Seguleh, Karsa's clan is a warrior clan, which exists to fight above all else.

Karsa was the best (not strongest, that was Bairoth I think) swordsman the clan had. No small achievement.

And I don't think I remember anyone getting through Karsa's defence with a sword in his hand. In RG, Rhulad how much ever he tried could not get through Karsa's defense.

But there is no doubt that Karsa's physical abilities does help him in many ways during a fight. Like the fight with Seguleh 12th, he knew he could defeat her with or without his sword. Even with Rhulad, with an impaled sword, Karsa killed him. Doubt how many can manage to do such a thing.

Don't know whether Karsa is superb swords man or his confidence in beating anyone with or without his sword makes him look better than he actually is.

[Silencer]

I think a lot of it is his attitude - admittedly, the whole "nothing can beat me attitude" isn't going to cut it on it's own, but Karsa simply refuses to give up.
Of course, I think that with Karsa's slowing widening world-view, he could soon find himself come crashing down......most likely by magic - although
TTH SPOILER:

Spoiler

With the whole Calm thing in TtH, his confidence might be broken in regards to his prowess

At the same time, he has been immune to magic the whole series, basically, and I think it would be...nice....to see him get brought down with it.

[Dolmen 2.0]

rake is an ascendant. rake is better than silchus. silchus almost lost to trull but won against 5 pure blood karsa gods. iron bars is at skinners level slinner survived dassem. dassem has been beaten by a cross bow. once. based on this rake may be above dassem. i have yet to read of rake succumbing to a mundane weapon. seguleh forced rake out of island before 6. thats roughly under mok but envy feels mok would not face rake and live...

that said...the first should be above brys and dassem just as i feel rake is. this is just an opinion. besides trull and quick combined could not beat iccy yet silchus nearly lost to both. iccy is just that powerful. he 2 is immortal so surely he is better than all?

[Zanth13]

Dolmen;334634 said:

rake is an ascendant. rake is better than silchus. silchus almost lost to trull but won against 5 pure blood karsa gods. iron bars is at skinners level slinner survived dassem. dassem has been beaten by a cross bow. once. based on this rake may be above dassem. i have yet to read of rake succumbing to a mundane weapon. seguleh forced rake out of island before 6. thats roughly under mok but envy feels mok would not face rake and live...

that said...the first should be above brys and dassem just as i feel rake is. this is just an opinion. besides trull and quick combined could not beat iccy yet silchus nearly lost to both. iccy is just that powerful. he 2 is immortal so surely he is better than all?

great since of logic, but i notice two possilbe flaws right away.

1. Iron Bars is most likely not on Skinner's level. In fact, I think its mentioned that yes IB is good, but other Avowed are better and then it states Skinner, and Blues I believe,

2. Iccy was unconvinced that he could be Traveller, and Dassem is almost for sure Traveller...that self awareness of iccy is saying alot for the big D.

also Rake was fighting back to back to back against the Segulah (probably not all at once, doesnt seem to be there style) so he was fighting without a break, and defeated their 7th...

ROTCG spoiler ahahahaha

Spoiler

Iron Bars barely defeated the Segulah he faught(if it wasnt for the vow he would have died)... and she was not very high on the totem poll compared to the others we have seen.... that is why I believe the top 3 segulahs are the baddest mofos we have seen, with the exception being Dassem.