[Aptorian]

Dolmen;334634 said:

rake is an ascendant. rake is better than silchus. silchus almost lost to trull but won against 5 pure blood karsa gods. iron bars is at skinners level slinner survived dassem. dassem has been beaten by a cross bow. once. based on this rake may be above dassem. i have yet to read of rake succumbing to a mundane weapon. seguleh forced rake out of island before 6. thats roughly under mok but envy feels mok would not face rake and live...

that said...the first should be above brys and dassem just as i feel rake is. this is just an opinion. besides trull and quick combined could not beat iccy yet silchus nearly lost to both. iccy is just that powerful. he 2 is immortal so surely he is better than all?

This is a terrible post.

You can't make these comparisons and you can't make deductions based on what seems logical.

We don't know how one character stands up against another before they actually go toe to toe.

Dassem isn't a worse fighter because he was wounded by a crossbow. Anyone can be wounded by a sneak attack, not even the gods have spidersenses.

Rake and Ruin can be wounded by mundane weapons, Trull damaged Ruin good and proper with a spear.

You can't base peoples skill upon what other characters are guessing. Your evidence of Rake being better than Mok is that Envy thinks so... what?

Even if you set these charcters up against each other it is the push and pull of Oponn that will have as much of a saying in the outcome as skill.

In the WJ vs Kallor fight Kallor trips on a spear and WJ breaks his leg.

In the Trull vs Ruin fight Ruin trips over... another spear? Can't remember.

In the Icarium vs Karsa fight Icarium clips Karsa's sword at the first blow and Karsa is lucky enough to knock out Icarium at the next blow.

Most of the fights are like this. It's Erikson messing with us.

I remain convinced that Erikson had a bet with someone and cheated when he decided the outcome of the Trull vs Icarium fight.

[Tarcil]

my ranking of whiskeyjack is based on his relation with dassem, not with his fight with kallor.

btw kallor couldn't penetrate W's defense and w only wanted to defend silverfox, he wasn't going to go all the way for the kill. however when the oportunity was there he went for it and had kallor by the balls, if not for his knee.

at dolmen: indeed why must we be male chauvinst pigs--> seguleh 1 could be a woman!!!
imagine the marital fights...
btw is there any clue if these ranked seguleh are married?

[Tarcil]

reading all these posts,

about a killing match: I think the top three there would be Dassem, rake and karsa. But I think it wouldn't happen. When they all meet, they look at each other, make joke, laugh, and go to K'rul's bar or the phoenix inn for a cup of tea (maybe tusked seal sperm).
Pure speculation, no spoiler.

What I noticed is that all top players here are known for there focus and mindpower which they can channel in a fight. most obvious is karsa of course.

in skill I would say dassem, seguleh 1 and brys

Spoiler

P.S. Skinner is a filthy cheat with Cowl to save his ass (think it was cowl who got him away from dassem when they clashed in the time of kellanved)

[blackzoid]

Tarcil;334794 said:

reading all these posts,

about a killing match: I think the top three there would be Dassem, rake and karsa. But I think it wouldn't happen. When they all meet, they look at each other, make joke, laugh, and go to K'rul's bar or the phoenix inn for a cup of tea (maybe tusked seal sperm).
Pure speculation, no spoiler.

What I noticed is that all top players here are known for there focus and mindpower which they can channel in a fight. most obvious is karsa of course.

in skill I would say dassem, seguleh 1 and brys.

RotCG

Spoiler

Dont mention that without spoiler tags! You are referring to their second fight I presume. Besides from RotCG, the other Avowed were surprised that Skinner had his armour now. So it appears that he did NOT have his armour when he fought Daseem the first time. And that time, he held Daseem back long enough for the other Avowed to escape. Pretty impressive. He may have declined now, but he is still pretty good. Much better than Karsa in skill level, in my opinion.

[Aptorian]

Arrrh Tarcil ROTCG SPOILER!!!!!

[Sparkimus]

Maybe that's the key Apt, it's the SPEARS!!! keep one around just for the off-chance your foes slip on 'em.

...but yeah I agree, that was a pretty terrible post

[Dancer+]

The bolt Dassem was struck by could easily have been a magically imbued bolt. It wasn't a mundane weapon by any stretch of the imagination.

[Dolmen 2.0]

Aptorian;334727 said:

This is a terrible post.

You can't make these comparisons and you can't make deductions based on what seems logical.

We don't know how one character stands up against another before they actually go toe to toe.

Dassem isn't a worse fighter because he was wounded by a crossbow. Anyone can be wounded by a sneak attack, not even the gods have spidersenses.

Rake and Ruin can be wounded by mundane weapons, Trull damaged Ruin good and proper with a spear.

You can't base peoples skill upon what other characters are guessing. Your evidence of Rake being better than Mok is that Envy thinks so... what?

Even if you set these charcters up against each other it is the push and pull of Oponn that will have as much of a saying in the outcome as skill.

In the WJ vs Kallor fight Kallor trips on a spear and WJ breaks his leg.

In the Trull vs Ruin fight Ruin trips over... another spear? Can't remember.

In the Icarium vs Karsa fight Icarium clips Karsa's sword at the first blow and Karsa is lucky enough to knock out Icarium at the next blow.

Most of the fights are like this. It's Erikson messing with us.

I remain convinced that Erikson had a bet with someone and cheated when he decided the outcome of the Trull vs Icarium fight.

Ok...First I reiterate the word OPINION. my post was my point of view. there are no set criteria on how to assess the ability of Eriksons characters thus I have made no attempt to do so. I'm simply saying that from the way I see things I feel the order I suggested before applies (Dassem MAY be inferior to the likes of Icarium, Rake and/or The Seguleh First). You shouldn't have to tell me what I can or can't do with my opinion apt. thats just condescension

Secondly your own post points to oppon playing a major part in every huge clash we have seen so far. granted that it IS a wild card with no real alliance to anything or anyone the fact it can affect any one says just that. so why can't we assess individuals by outcomes? you say its an issue on the luckiest on the day but if you beat the devil the day he had a cold you still beat the devil. thus if dassem was shot by a crossbow He was shot by a crossbow, perhaps it was two windy so he couldn't hear it or something but despite his increadible skills He still got shot by said crossbow.

could Rake or Brys or the first get hurt by a cross bow? most likely but still the crossbow hit him Dassem, it happened and thus dassem isn't perfect. That he has flaws was the whole point and I didn't think I'd have to defend an opinion that simplistic but the fact he ain't perfect makes me feel that the likes of Rake, Iccarium, the seguleh first and maybe even Osric(fought toe to toe with rake for millenia afterall) COULD be superior because I have yet to read such a failing. I'm sure when we learn some revelation of how rake lost to a farmer or some such thing my impression will change of him but for the time being I have yet to find anything that makes me doubt his ability.

BTW this doesn't mean Dassem, brys or the first would not beat him at swordmanship, just that based on precedent I don't think they can.

[Aptorian]

I'm sorry, of course you're entittled to your own opinion, but the way you're setting up each character is ludicrous

I mean how can you say that for example Rake is better than Dassem because we've not seen Rake getting shot with a crossbow? It's not logical at all.

I guess Fiddler is stronger than the CG aswell then because I've not seen him getting pulled into another dimension and getting torn to pieces

[Tarcil]

to apt

I was referring to the first fight.

Spoiler

Didn't he already have the armour?? seems i missed that part.

edited the post

[magicrealist]

Tarcil;334963 said:

to apt

I was referring to the first fight.

Spoiler

Didn't he already have the armour?? seems i missed that part.

Spoiler

No he got his armor during the exile on Jacuruku from ardata.

[Aptorian]

I am not reading that :GA:

[Tarcil]

I edited the post

srry seems i didn't read something in RotCG

and THIS is not a spoiler.

[Sparkimus]

You need to get some of those smileys to run around the other way Apt, that way you can have even more nonsense going on in all your posts :GA:

[magicrealist]

Btw, someone said I'll put the seguleh first number one IF he is a mortal, I forget who. I just would like to say, that Dassem is not mortal he's a god, and Brys is an Ascendant ( i think). I don't see why it would matter if the Seguleh first is a god.

[Tarcil]

anyway

back on topic: I think the seguleh first is a woman who is deadly with kitchenknives. Makes a mean vegetablesoup.

Why: everybody got to eat!!!

When you can't challenge anyone anymore (already the best) you need a new challenge in life. I personally believe that cooking is a damn challenge.

Also we know that the second is (un)dead and he seems to have been away from his people for a very long time yes?
any idea what the expire date of a position is? forever?

Might be that there are more positions unfilled, like say that the 12th had died, they wouldn't have known now? or if mok or rake would die without them knowing, would their positions remain empty?
7th and 3rd if i recall.

[VampireGoat]

Quote

Secondly your own post points to oppon playing a major part in every huge clash we have seen so far. granted that it IS a wild card with no real alliance to anything or anyone the fact it can affect any one says just that. so why can't we assess individuals by outcomes? you say its an issue on the luckiest on the day but if you beat the devil the day he had a cold you still beat the devil. thus if dassem was shot by a crossbow He was shot by a crossbow, perhaps it was two windy so he couldn't hear it or something but despite his increadible skills He still got shot by said crossbow.

Maybe it was windy and didnt hear it? Come off it..

Lets take a little recap of how dassem died

Dassem died during the 'siege' of y'ghatan. So he's already in the middle of a battle field, two armies screaming and shouting. So yes he couldn't hear it that does go without saying.

Secondly Dassem was battling some kind of sorcey/god charged super hard arse at the time as well.

Lastly dassem was shot from friendly lines. He was assasinated by the claw while facing an equally skilled/powered opponent.

Now my NoK memories are a bit fuzzy, I can't remeber if he was still fighting or he'd just finished but the fact remains, daseems wounding was down to betrayl not a lack of marshall prowess. In that respect he's on level peggin with Brys who's grand achievements in the series is beating a opponent who, lets be fair, wasn't known for great skill just couldn't die and then took drank poisoned wine and fell dead.

Well who knows, maybe it was a little dark and the king of lether and his advisors were well known for taking a quick nap during important meetings and kingdom deciding duels so he thought nothing of it and gave into the errant induced desire to drink. I dont care the errant was involved. He, like oppon, is the master of proding and pulling, in other words suggestion. He may make certain choices seem better and more appropriate but by all means he isn't a brute force man.

I don't get all the Brys love as a swordsman anyway. Sure he was good, perhaps the lether best, but lets be fair what does that mean? Rhulad was no legendary opponent, he's a guy that got ruined in seconds by an Avowed, of which only one can match daseem and that isn't bars. Bars was damn good to be sure but he still wasn't a daseem beater. Brys to me, was a guy who was great in a country that just hadn't seen what the rest of the world had to offer. If he came face to face with the ascendant, the vowed, the religously devouted seglueh, the t'lan imass etc he'd seen find his champion abilities humbled somewhat.

Putting him next to Rake and daseem when we've no real evidence of him showing superior fighting abilities outside of a sparing contest doesnt qualify him as one of the top swordsmen in my book. Especially when you consider what we've seen Mok do.

If Mok, the 3rd seglueh can beat down multiple undead k'ell hunters then he has got to be something special. Mok backuped by his two budies cut paths through groups of kell hunters. By what I remeber kell hunters moved like lightning and cut down just about anything. I don't recall anyone else ever so much as getting a chance to even cut one with a sword in either MoI or RG, everyone just died. To fight creatures like that with standard weapons is a sign to me that in terms of skill, they are elivated above everyone else of traditional flesh and blood. If this is Mok's ability then the 1st if something purely terrifying.

I stand by Envy's opinion of Rake being able to dominate all though. The skill displayed against the demon in Gotm was no laughing matter. We know he happily strolled around the seglueh isle taking out everything till he'd simply had enough. Now their may be opponents that could beat rake at sword play but he does have 300 thousand years+ of experience and training and he's a physically superior being when compared to most of the malazan world really.

Only person we've seen get close to the level of skill is traveller who may/may not be daseem. If said theory proves true then daseem has already 1up'd his way to a lot higher position then he was when he 'left' imperial service.

[Dolmen 2.0]

admission one. i forgot the third had only two marks. more rep to erikson for making the first a pure white masked seguleh another rep to apt for remindin me. thanks.

second admission dassem getting hit by a cross bow is a poor way to express my opinion. dassem was indeed shot from behind though its not said out loud, KoK alludes to it.

i still think dassem is below the elder immortals like rake ofcourse posts above explain why in ways i never thought of so more rep to them.

[Veilside]

You're forgetting that Dassem is now a god, so he'd have gotten a lot more powerful from that.

[BeLeG]

Do u remember Trull's and Fear's reaction when they saw what Brys could do?
Trull could not believe it was even possible to do what Brys did.And Trull is really really good with his spear.How can you say Brys is untested?

And I will say it again:please leave Karsa out,he can do pretty much anything because SE enjoys him the most.On the other hand after 3 books of Karsa's adventures I dont like him at all.

Spoiler

I've read many RotCG spoilers and I must say I am dissapointed the way SE gives us doubts about Skinner's abilities.Magical armour?I think I wanted more from the best of the Avowed
He has a badass name,Blues and Iron Bars were damn impressive and we were told he ranked above them,we were told he once survived a fight with Dassem and an Ascended Seguleh 2nd is after him.Well the expectations were high don't you think?