Malazan Empire: Reaper's Gale Prologue - Malazan Empire

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Reaper's Gale Prologue

#161 User is offline   Morgoth 

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Posted 01 September 2006 - 09:19 AM

Morgoth;109296 said:

why is it assumed that the people appearing in canoes and the soldiers appearing four years later are the same?

First of all, we know the Perish have very advanced ships for the times, so it would be pretty silly for them to travel in canoes, furthermore, would they not have mentioned this in tBH? I mean, we're talking a huge number of soldiers here, a much higher number than what they put at Tavore's service.

To me, it would seem as if the people who were killed two years after the edur invasion are either grey helms or grey swords, both could be there if we're to follow the timeline I believe. Though, ofc here I may be wrong.

The people who arrived in the canoes could be barghast, but then not belonging to the barghast we met in MoI as they had lost pretty much all their connection with the sea and indeed, could possibly field that number during the early pages of MoI, but hardly at the end. Not to mention that the timeline does not match here.

There are ofc many races that these vessels could belong to, but I doubt it is any of the more modern. I personaly would rule out anything human, though ofc, I might be wrong. The human nations we've come across of a size necessary to be able to launch such an invasion/imigration should be able to use much more advanced and efficient ships.

Seguleh perhaps? The numbers seem wrong though, and I very much doubt that such a huge number of seguleh could arrive anywhere without killing enough people to be noticed.

There's too few FA left I would think.

TT? Perhaps, as they were at one point sea farers with the Barghast which would explain the use of canoes. Indeed, considering their size, the number of soldiers could be susbtantialy reduced making them perhaps more able to hide. We do not, after all, know whether any sizable colonies of TT excist on any of the continents we've yet to visite so it could be possible to muster such a number from somewhere. At the same time, this bleeds warren long way I think, which possibly rules out the TT..

Could also be edur, though then I assume we'd have heard of it in MT.

The other two tiste races would probably just use their respective warrens to travel though it is possible that the boats arrived from a warren of some kind. someone fleeing assail? That's a shot in the dark I know, but as we know there's a war there and I'm pretty sure whomever arrived with the boats did not come from one of the continents we've visited so far, Assail seems as likely -if not more so- as any. The Jheck we get a verbal glimps of in BF? Lol, at this point it seems I'm just listing names of primitive species we know little about. No, atm I think I'll stick to my TT theory until Kallor or the released book proves me wrong :)

As to Kilsomethingsomething, her multi jointed body and martial aspect would indeed hint at her children being FA, not TT who after all do not more than the typical amount of joints. Damn hippies.

Great prologue though. The guy in the scale mask is not Reese, just so that's clear for everyone :)


just wish to point this out once more ^^
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#162 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 01 September 2006 - 01:45 PM

Ok, i'm in agreement that it's at best an assumption that the canoe people and the dead army four years later are the same group. Given the description of the waterline to get the to the beach, it's not rediculous that the War Thrones weren't going to work, hence the canoes. But yes, there are ample hints in the past that could link this to bhargast or moranth.

But at a minimum, the dead army is linked to T&F. Whether they are Grey Swords, Grey Helms/Perish, or something else alltogether is up for debate.

Assail, we've been told, is ICE territory, so unlikely there's a link there.

Pretty sure RedMask is a new character

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#163 Guest_Ceuningske_*

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Posted 01 September 2006 - 04:08 PM

Well, we have Grey Swords and Grey Helms, So won't there be some Grey Shields out there as well? :)
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#164 User is offline   percival 

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Posted 01 September 2006 - 05:03 PM

i love the way it just draws you in once again.. now i cant wait for the book!
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#165 User is offline   Coldnight 

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Posted 01 September 2006 - 07:02 PM

Imperial Historian said:

According to mal's rough timeline Mt takes place in 63/64 so the edur conquer lether in that period, bonehunters takes place 64/65, so 2 years is probably after Tavore met the perish.


I believe that the conquest of Lether took place in 1164. Remember the the drowned Edur Paran and BB's found somewhere on Genabackis in MoI? I'm pretty sure it's the one who attacked Tehol at the end of MT and was thrown by Bugg into his warren. BH ended in 1165, so Tavore and the Perish might get to Lether at the beginning of 1166 - 2 years after the conquest. Heartless bodies are very probably some of Grey Helms. That clearly makes the owners of the canoes someone else. Besides who would take so many canoes on the ships just to get ashore?
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#166 User is offline   Dark Mac 

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Posted 01 September 2006 - 09:08 PM

tiam;110732 said:

The 'Pure Kin' that are mentioned seem likely to be Andii or maybe Liosan. But Andii seems likely.


We find out in TBH that they're other Edur, but their civilization is pretty barbaric. They're essentially enslaved by Rhulad's Edur.
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#167 User is offline   Jorram 

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Posted 01 September 2006 - 09:20 PM

Darn, I lost my 45-minutes long post!

Anyway, beside some rant the essential part was this:

1) Kilmandaros and the "child of undescribable terror" are mentioned as separate entities in Fear Sengar's story of Scabandari's demise. So it's not really possible that the Edur confuse one for the other. IMO the safest bet is yet another inconsistency that SE has failed to remember (we've seen a lot of those after all).

2) Maybe I missed something but what were Mael's motives for urging Gothos to seal time/death/whatever on Lether? Nothing in MT explained his reasons to do that and now we see that it actually impeded Kilmandaros from killing Scabandari right out. Kilmandaros herself obviously knew that Mael wanted Gothos to do the ritual in this way, yet she didn't jump on him after learning that it would not allow her to kill Scabandari. Which is even more weird. So - what was Mael's aim?

3) Why is the red masked guy ranting against the Letherii conquerors as though the following Edur conquest never happened? There is mention of Letherii forces (having just slaughtered the red-hairs army) but none of the Edur's empire. I dub it highly implausible to assume that two years after the conquest there are still Letherii troops on their own. So RedMask's lack of comments regarding the Edur strikes me as somewhat odd, to say the least.
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#168 Guest_Garibaldi_*

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Posted 01 September 2006 - 09:22 PM

I think your making an assumption that the war canoes left behind had to be brought by larger ships. They can just as easily be sea worthy and travel long distances.
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#169 User is offline   tiam 

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 10:05 AM

Dark Mac;110890 said:

We find out in TBH that they're other Edur, but their civilization is pretty barbaric. They're essentially enslaved by Rhulad's Edur.


Hmmmm i dont think so. In the Nascent when trull is chained its said that Trull called them the Pure Kin. Rhulad then claims that if they were Pure Kin why did they die so easily? Ofcourse they enslaved the ones from Sepik but that was after Trulls chaning. So i doubt Rhulad would slay more edur. He enslaved the ones from Sepik because they were already slaves. Also Hannan Mossag says they have found no other enclaves of Edur in MT. So i think the ones they found were either Blue rose Andii that Trull stood up for. Or they were seperate Andii or even Liosan
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#170 User is offline   tiam 

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 10:08 AM

Yeh but due to supplies and such i think larger ships would have to be used. Leteher is miles away from anywere Also given the description of the waves of the cove i think magic must have been involved. If one fisher boat survived long enough to let its passengers off then got smashed to pieces an entire fleet of war canoes would surely be problematic.
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#171 User is offline   Morgoth 

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 11:26 AM

tiam;111094 said:

Yeh but due to supplies and such i think larger ships would have to be used. Leteher is miles away from anywere Also given the description of the waves of the cove i think magic must have been involved. If one fisher boat survived long enough to let its passengers off then got smashed to pieces an entire fleet of war canoes would surely be problematic.


Er... history is filled with examples of primitive canoes being able to reach shores far far away from their origin..

on another point entirely, the perish would obviously not land thei big war galleys on shore, but neither would they use canoes when they obviously have the technology and skill to build much more efficient landing crafts
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#172 User is offline   Shiara 

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 11:45 AM

Okay, I've been lazy and haven't read this whole thread - has anyone mentioned yet the possibility that these huge canoes are Barghast? Considering that the front sections are partially dismantled, would this be where those swords were kept?
*casting the shaved knuckle*
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#173 User is offline   Morgoth 

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 12:01 PM

Shiara;111152 said:

Okay, I've been lazy and haven't read this whole thread - has anyone mentioned yet the possibility that these huge canoes are Barghast? Considering that the front sections are partially dismantled, would this be where those swords were kept?


yes, several times :)

My theory is TT or a reduced version of that race, but i'm in an extreeme minority
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#174 User is offline   tiam 

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 01:13 PM

Hmmmm TT? Maybe but i dont think so. Maybe thats were the Barghast practices came from from when they travelled the sea together maybe they acquired some traits from the TT. But the numbers dont match. TT are rare. Even lesser TT (Trell Barghast Fenn and teblor) are few in number. I doubt theres 500 000 trell (who are plain dwellers neway) Bargahst seems likely but not Genabackan as they dont have the numbers (70 000 in MOI and they took losses) but maybe another clan from another continent. Fenn unlikely nigh impossible really. And teblor are far far way and would be concerned in Genabackis.
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#175 User is offline   philospher77 

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 04:13 PM

Morgoth;111142 said:

Er... history is filled with examples of primitive canoes being able to reach shores far far away from their origin..

on another point entirely, the perish would obviously not land thei big war galleys on shore, but neither would they use canoes when they obviously have the technology and skill to build much more efficient landing crafts

Plus, if they were used as landing craft for larger ships, the obvious thing to do with them once you have dropped off all the troops is to take them back to the ships, not leave them on the shore. After all, the only reason to leave them on shore is so that people can get back to the ships, which weren't riding at anchor out to sea. And, if they were just landing craft, you wouldn't have that many of them, because you would make multiple trips per boat.
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#176 User is offline   Morgoth 

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Posted 03 September 2006 - 12:30 PM

@tiam - you know, it pays of sometimes to read all posts between your own, instead of jumping to the last in the thread :D
Take good care to keep relations civil
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#177 User is offline   Hume 

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Posted 03 September 2006 - 12:37 PM

If only everyone would do that Morgoth, unfortunately certain people in life like the sound of their own voice.

No im Not talking about you Tiam..

#178 User is offline   tiam 

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Posted 03 September 2006 - 01:32 PM

yes i like the sound of my own voice that must be it. I try and get involved in a debate and get abuse. Thanks Hume. Were not all perfect like you
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#179 User is offline   Shiara 

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Posted 03 September 2006 - 01:38 PM

Who says Hume is perfect? He broke my camera!

:D
*casting the shaved knuckle*
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#180 User is offline   tiam 

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Posted 03 September 2006 - 01:46 PM

I was being sarcastic because Hume doesnt seem to like me on this forum.

*cries himself to sleep
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