[Dolorous Menhir]

airheadgreg said:

OK to drift back several pages, how do we know that Traveller on drift avail is Dassem Ultor? As far as I know there are three Malazan soldiers who have ‘fakes their own deaths, one being keeper who ‘drowned’.

I got the impression that Dassem Ultor became Hoods man in Memories Of Ice…you know the guy with swords stuck in his hands…who never dreams…because there’s that idea that Dassem actually died… If I’m wrong any help to who each guy is will help me…


-Greg

Dassem was the old Knight of Death. He left the position around about the time of his reported "death" in the GotM prologue. The new Knight of Death we see in MoI is someone else, and that someone else is Baudin.

Whiskeyjack & Dujek discuss Dassem Ultor during one of their conversations in MoI, and they flat out say that Ultor faked his death at Y'Ghatan.

As for Traveller = Dassem Ultor, I'm not sure what the definitive evidence is, or even if there is any. It just seems to fit very well. Traveller is described as Dal Honese, and Dassem Ultor was half Dal Honese (or it was the other way round). There is the troublesome matter of them having different eye colours, but SE has written around bigger discontinuities than that.

Also Traveller first appears in the company of Malazans, and not just any Malazans but a long-missing Family member (Hawl). This lends weight to the idea that he is Dassem Ultor, and has been doing something undercover within the Malazan Empire (whether with the knowledge of Laseen or without, I don't know).

But you mention the other three Family members who disappeared - the Crust brothers, and Ameron. The Crust brothers are accounted for though (Captain and Keeper) but Ameron is the other candidate for Traveller. Unfortunately Ameron is totally the wrong race to be Traveller (I forget if he was a Napan, but he certainly wasn't Dal Honese like Traveller is confirmed as). I think Ameron will surface in some other capacity.

edit: I'm neglecting the fourth lost Family member, Toc the Elder, but I don't think anyone is proposing he is Traveller. I think Father Toc met a nasty end somewhere, and that he is actually properly dead.

airheadgreg said:

OK so in Hoods Warren, Hood does not livebut he wanders according to Reast, but before houses were hold before holds were wanderings, so Reast i VERY old so may still only know of wanderings, Hood being the last wanderer not transfering to a hold or warren until after Reasts inprisonment...?

-Greg

Raest called Hood the Death Wanderer. But I don't think Hood was King of High House Death when Raest went into imprisonment, he took the role sometime later (I'm thinking post-Imass Ritual).

And I don't know what you are talking about with "before holds were wanderings" but Hood is widely believed to be a Jaghut, and so is not old enough to be anything like you are proposing.

[Dark Mac]

1. At one point, it's mentioned that the Otataral at the Seven Cities Jade Giant was created to prepare for the coming of the JG that landed there. How this was done, and who did it, I have no idea.

2. K'rul aspected the dragons himself. Does this mean he created the aspect of Otataral for the OD?

[Illuyankas]

1. It's possible that the very entrance of the JG created otataral, by burning the matter around it and changing it to otataral. I don't think there's an Otataral Fairy roaming round the world and sprinkling ottie dust on magical things though.

2. K'rul aspected the dragons before the OD was created. My theory is the OD was created by a dragon drinking Sorrit's otataral-corrupted blood, but some people think that Scabby killed Sorrit himself. Did we ever find Sorrit's gender, by the way?

[airheadgreg]

I was under the impression that Sorrit was female...

[Fooler]

As per Temper's thoughts in NOK and the 2nd Seguleh in BH, it seems to me that ... (here I'll just copy it from my post in The Crimson Guard and Hood):


NOK SPOILER - though minor.

Temper stated that Skinner was the only Avowed to surrvive a fight with Dassem. Could this encounter not have been how both Skinner and Dassem got on Hood's bad boy list?

Dassem either cut a deal with Skinner or refused to kill him (thus betraying a god) and Skinner got away (Cheating Death).

[Jimmy]

[QUOTE=fan_83]i would guess that the leader is the leader of the crimson guards.. he was the only malaz whose access to the land is blocked by a bridge on fire... unless that malaz is the new high king of house of soldiers?[QUOTE]

The Crimson Guard aren't Malazan and Prince Kazz D'vore is the leader of them.

[Obdigore]

Here is what i would indeed call a crazy theory:

The pieces of jade.... CG's realm following him from his other universe?
They seem to be full of pain and suffereing... perhaps tainted by his madness even through such a long distance?

[tiam]

This is actually a crazy theory but its sort of a standing theory. By this i mean were not gonna know what they are until SE puts it in. we can speculate foever but whenever i read about JG i simply think of them like this.

Ive reread HOC twice continually to try and come up with this. The Jade giants are nothing but magical repsitories. They are magical but only insofar asthey absorb. Neway they have absorbed countless souls from other realms (see Heborics dream in HOC) while Heborics in that dream he says they cannot all be going into his realm other wise they would be in countless locatns so i believe they sort of disintegrate when they have took there souols to the CG wound. However some get through in bits and thats why there presnet.

I agree its not perfet just a theory i stand by to help me read HOC without trying to work out why they are in Wu

[Lord of Salvation]

So can someone tell me who exactly called forth the jade giants, or what ever those gleaming green things were in the sky?

[Dark Mac]

There are two explanations for the JGs given in HoC:

1) They are the CG's army/worshippers from his realm, coming to help him out.
2) They are the CG's enemies from his realm, coming to take him out.

The CG seems to have been some sort of villainous figure in his own realm, so both make sense. However, they seem to be doing nothing to stop the CG, so I'd guess that they're there to help him.

[tiam]

no. i disagree. I beleieve they areneutral. I know that doesnt make sense but i believe they arejust housing for the millions of souls for the wound he created. Basicly that otateral dragon is the block on our end and the rest of the realms are trying to block the wound the normal way

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Fooler, is that Buddy Christ by any chance? It makes me feel like starting a Kevin Smith thread in the Inn. Someone should, anyways.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Krait;117098 said:

Three theories (probably all mentioned before)

1. Karsa Orlong will become Emperor of the Edur and Letherii,after Icarium kills Rhulad and thus end all slavery and indebtedness on Lether.

Actually that one is new to me, but I don't buy it. Karsa isn't interested in power like that, I think. End slavery and indebtedness yes, becoming Emperor no.

Quote

2. Skinner is a woman. (Hood does need a wife )

HOOD DOESN'T NEED A WIFE. THAT WAS A CURSE NOT A MISSION STATEMENT.

As for the gender of Skinner, that's an open question. No proof either way, though "male" would be the natural assumption.

Quote

3. Traveller is not Daseem........... Traveller's description said blue eyes (or black) and in NoK Dassems description said black eyes (or blue).Can't remember which way round it was,but definitely different,although it's probably just a mistake

That's the prevalent thinking, there is just so much evidence weighing for "Dassem is Traveller" that the eye colour issue is discarded. Editing error or not.

There is precedent for such mistakes, Korlat's brother Orfantal was female in GotM.

[Onrack the breakable]

After reading HOC the (US)cover seems to show Karsa getting gang shredded by the 5 remaining Deragoth while Icarium looks on. The Deragoth being somewhat upset that he killed 2 of them and appears to have chopped the nose off another. The scene not showing Mappo suggest Iccy would be angered at Karsa -for killing Mappo in a merciless, tortured manner- even if he didnt remember why.

I was then amazed to find this cover was really supposed to be the faces in the stone or some such nonsense which it resembles in no way. I think the faces claim was just a red herring because the cover accidentally showed too much of what was in store 4 books or so down the road. Ie: Karsa getting shredded horribly by the 5 remaining Deragoth while Iccy looks on.

[Danno]

This is my crazy theory. It is late, I am tired and it's complicated. Also, I still haven't read the Bonehunters or Midnight Tides so this may be hopelessly out of date. Anyways,

The Theory:
The Emperor, being an accomplished mage, and having stayed in the Deadhouse, learned of the coming threat of the Crippled God. Hence, with Surly's full participation, the Emperor and Dancer arranged their own deaths and subsequent ascensions. Together, they seek to form a human resistance and solution to the problem of the Crippled God using the Malazan Empire, with Surly's full cooperation, and High House Shadow. They have the additional goal of occupying the Elder Shadow Throne.

Ideas Supporting the Theory:
1. Cutter ruminated in the HoC (I think) that the Elder Gods would never allow a single individual to be a real power in both realms. Such an individual would be a target of the other Gods and ascendants and would not be tolerated. The only way for Kellanved and Dancer to pull off the trick of having such power in both realms was to die and then ascend. Leaving Surly in charge of the Malazan Empire, they could take control of High House Shadow.

2. Doing so does give them vast resources to combat the Crippled God: The Malazan Empire, High House Shadow and the Shadow Hounds. They have an army of assasins trained by Kallor and, finally, they may be able to place a mortal on the throne of the T'lann Imass. They do know where it is, after all...

3. High House Shadow is probably related to the Elder Throne of Shadow in much the same way that the Human Warrens are related to the Elder Warrens. This is stretching things a lot, I know, but this connection may give some kind of advantage to Kellanved and Dancer, or at least make them some kind of special opponents to the Crippled God. As well, Kellanved is especially ambitious and with the Crippled God out of the way, he may have a plan to take the Elder Shadow Throne.

4. This is in keeping with a theme of the books, which is that human ingenuity and aggression are needed to combat the Crippled God. The Elder Gods, it seems at least, are no longer up to the task. The fight a defensive, reactive battle and more is required. If my theory is right, then the 'more' is Kellanved, Dancer and Lasseen. It seems that no one else is really prepared to fight the Crippled God. Also, even if the Elder Gods are not in cahoots with them, they may be at least allowing it to happen so that there is some human plan against the CG.

Real Proof:
None This is crazy theories, right?

Big Hole (besides all the other big ones I am sure this theory has):
The Emperor and Dancer would have had to know or almost be certain that they would ascend upon death. In this case, ascension would have been a voluntary act. Either that or, through some trickery or deal, they may have been able to arrange their own ascensions with some certainty...

Anyways, thats the theory...

Cheers all!

[Dolorous Menhir]

I'm not convinced they had Surly's "full" co-operation, but apart from that everything you say is quite reasonable. I think Laseen had some degree of involvement in the ascension but I wouldn't imply that she was an equal partner with Dancer & Kellanved. Happy to take power after the ascension, and willing to go along with the assassination story, yes, but not enjoying the full confidence of K & D or as actively opposing the CG.

Also I think Kellanved knew exactly what would happen when he ascended. There was no element of chance there, Shadowthrone rarely seems to take risks like that. He works it out in advance.

And I think you mean Kalam somewhere in the middle there, not Kallor.

Also, I think Silverfox is in charge of the Imass now, I'm assuming getting her to sit on the Throne is a big priority for the Imass. Don't see Shadowthrone maintaining his control there, he lost it when he ascended really.

edit: I should note, NoK sheds a lot of light on the assassinations of Kellanved & Dancer and the motivations of Laseen and Tayschrenn. Hopefully it will be put on general release soon, in the meantime I won't say anything more on this thread.

[Yasnian]

Not a bad theory for not having read MT or TBH. Or Nok?
Keep'em coming