[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

I can't believe I haven't read NoK yet. What kind of fan am I.

[Obdigore]

Crazy Theory:

Kalam was injured, perhaps died due to poison. Could he then ascend after a time in the Azath to become the new god of plague/poison/pestilence that Paran killed?

[Onrack the breakable]

It seems equally likely that Iskar Jalek is Wiskey Jack or Dassem Ultor. I lean more towards Whiskey Jack simply because it sounds similar although it is more likely to be Dassem or someone else entirely based on the miniscule evidence.

It could be either or both without having any significant effect on the story.

Anyway thats not much of wild a idea anyway.

Heres a real wild idea: Icarium is half jaghut and half gene engineered C'chain C'hmelle but due to some mismatch of chromosomes he can produce a Matron Mother's Death Cry without actually dieing.

Hahaha. Top that!

[tiam]

very nice. Also expalins were he got his skills of machine making from.

Dont think Kalam will become god of pestilence tho. just because hes poisoned. If anyone Dujek maybe?

raymondluxery yacht- what kind of fan are you? a poor one who cant be crazy enough to buy a 25 pound book that although good is so short its like an Erikson leaflet

[Dolorous Menhir]

Onrack the breakable;131479 said:

It seems equally likely that Iskar Jalek is Wiskey Jack or Dassem Ultor. I lean more towards Whiskey Jack simply because it sounds similar although it is more likely to be Dassem or someone else entirely based on the miniscule evidence.

It's Whiskeyjack. Iskar Jarak was a Bridgeburner.

Relevant quote: BH, p 428

Frozen time - Anibar for "the past"
Flowing time - similarly, "the present"
Unfound time - "the future"

Quote

"Boatfinder, the Iron Prophet came to you long ago - in the frozen time - yet he spoke to you of the unfound time."

"Yes, you understand, witch. Iskar Jarak speaks but one language, yet within it is each and all. He is the Iron Prophet. The King.

"Your king, Boatfinder?"

"No. We are his shadows."

"Because you exist only in the flowing time."

The man turned and made a reverent bow that stirred something within Samar Dev. "Your wisdom honours us, witch," he said.

"Where," she asked, "is Iskar Jarak's kingdom?"

Sudden tears in the man's eyes. "An answer we yearn to find. It is lost-"

"In the unfound time."

"Yes."

"Iskar Jarak was a Mezla."

"Yes."

Samar Dev opened her mouth for one more question, then realized that it wasn't necessary. She knew its answer. Instead, she said, "Boatfinder, tell me, from the frozen time into the flowing time, is there a bridge?"

His smile was wistful, filled with longing. "There is."

"But you cannot cross it."

"No."

"Because it's burning."

"Yes, witch, the bridge burns."

King Iskar Jarak, and the unfound kingdom... [emphasis is Samar Dev's]

It's definitely Whiskeyjack. "Iron" fits his description well (beard, grey eyes, hard manner), he was the commander of the Bridgeburners, he was on Seven Cities. "Iskar Jarak" is obviously a corruption of "Whiskeyjack". No doubt in my mind.

The passage also suggests that Whiskeyjack will be back, if we can read Samar Dev's thought "King of the unfound kingdom" as saying WJ will be back in the future.

Onrack the breakable said:

Heres a real wild idea: Icarium is half jaghut and half gene engineered C'chain C'hmelle but due to some mismatch of chromosomes he can produce a Matron Mother's Death Cry without actually dieing.

Hahaha. Top that!

I like that one. If the KCCM were genetically retro-engineering the Short Tails back into existence, then it's quite reasonable they were also tinkering with the Jaghut, their slave race. And Icarium must date back that far, if he learned his mechanical savvy from the Short Tails.

[Rahvinn]

Was it not mentioned in a Steve Erikson interview that Whiskeyjack was not going to be brought back in any shape or form?
Just recall that offhand from another thread, but who knows, it does sound a very convincing theory.

About the whole Icarium as a bio engineered Super Jhag, sounds kinda scary! Wonder how Gothos would react to hearing he wasn't the father after all :eek:

On a side note/question/theory, mentioned in the books that on a far continent two Imass armies had been destoryed by a human Empire or Tyrant etc, could this have anything to do with the Crimson Guard?(this may have been asked already but...)
Read somewhere that they were one of the few who have fought on the Assail continent, and with them pulling out at the start of MOI....a couple of hundred Avowed would do some serious damage to any Imass that appears in front of them

[Dave]

Crazy theory/ies:

K'rul was the elder god of death, and was replaced by Hood when he disappeared because of Kallor's curse.

Even crazier theory:

Hood asked Paran to kill K'rul in TBH.

This second crazy theory would, at the very least, explain QB's and Paran's reactions to Hood's request.

[GardenGnome]

It has, however, no basis in anything we know about Hood or K'rul. We know K'rul is "the maker of the paths", and is somewhat the elder god of the warrens. He's also somehow linked to dreaming. Hood, on the other hand, was around, as the Death Wanderer, at the same time as K'rul was around and kicking in the old times. Wanderer is just part of the evolution - from wandering, to holds, to houses.

[Dave]

I've actually covered this before in the Elder Gods thread, and was told it belonged in the crazy theories thread, so here it is. My understanding is, this being the crazy theories thread that I don't need to defend it, but I'll try anyway...

I think there's evidence to suggest that K'rul was the elder god of death. This evidence I draw from the MOI prologue, and from Rath'Hood's particular reaction to the presence of Keruli at their council later on in MOI. Rath'Hood seems to have a stronger reaction than any of the other members of the council, and I always wondered why. My theory offers an explanation.

As for K'rul being associated with sleep, that's part of the reason why I think K'rul was the Elder God of death. Sleep and death are not incredibly dissimilar (yes, you wake from one, and presumably don't dream during the other), and the sleep engendered by Keruli was not easily told apart from death...

I've recently re-read the series keeping an eye out for any references to Hood being an elder god, or him having been around that long, and have come up with nothing. He's not mentioned in the MOI prologue once, neither by the Imass nor in the section covering Kallor and the three elder gods. That latter section, dealing as it does with the death of an entire continent, is somewhere I'd expected to find Hood mentioned. Therefore, I think this occurred prior to Hood's reign as god of death.

I've quoted some of this 'evidence' in post #22 here:
http://www.malazanempire.com/forums/showth...p?t=4404&page=2

[Saccian]

Heh, this is an interesting thread. As for Skinner, in TBH the 2nd Seguleh(or former 2nd) used the words him when talking about the person he was hunting so its looking like he's a dude. I did a triple take on that as I was confused when he was mentioning a female character but then realised he was talking about Poliel killing all her priests.

[Dolorous Menhir]

baphomet23;135416 said:

I've recently re-read the series keeping an eye out for any references to Hood being an elder god, or him having been around that long, and have come up with nothing. He's not mentioned in the MOI prologue once, neither by the Imass nor in the section covering Kallor and the three elder gods. That latter section, dealing as it does with the death of an entire continent, is somewhere I'd expected to find Hood mentioned. Therefore, I think this occurred prior to Hood's reign as god of death.

I've quoted some of this 'evidence' in post #22 here:
http://www.malazanempire.com/forums/showth...p?t=4404&page=2

The other pertinent piece of information is from GotM - I'll just quote the whole passage.

Gardens of the Moon, on page 635, said:

Raest raised himself from the ground, drawing his sorcery around his body to hold its shattered parts in place. "No T'lan Imass can withstand me," he hissed.

"A dubious claim," Kruppe said. "Even so, he is joined in this endeavour."

The Jaghut Tyrant straightened to see a tall, black-shrouded figure emerge from the streambend. He cocked his head as the apparition approached. "You remind me of Hood. Is the Death Wanderer still alive?" He scowled. "But, no. I sense nothing from you. You do not exist."

"Perhaps," the figure replied, in a deep, soft tone that hinted of regret. "If so," he continued, "then neither do you. We are both of the past, Jaghut." The figure halted fifteen feet away from Raest and swung his hooded head in the dragon's direction [Silanah]. "Her master awaits your arrival, Jaghut, but he waits in vain and for this you should thank us. He would deliver a kind of death from which there is no escape, even by such a creature as you." The head turned, and the darkness within the hood once again regarded the Tyrant. "Here, within a mortal's dream, we bring an end to your existence."

Raest grunted. "In this age, there are none who can defeat me."

The figure laughed, a low rumble. "You are a fool, Raest. In this age even a mortal can kill you. The tide of enslavement has reversed itself. It is now we gods who are the slaves, and the mortals our masters - though they know it not."

"You are a god, then?" Raest's scowl deepened. "You are a child to me if so."

"I was once a god," the figure replied. "Worshipped as K'rul, and my aspect was the Obelisk. I am the Maker of Paths - do you find any significance in that ancient title?"

Raest took a step back, raising his dessicated hands. "Impossible," he breathed. "You passed into the Realms of Chaos - returned to the place of your birth - you are among us no more - "

"As I said, things have changed," K'rul said quietly. "You have a choice, Raest..."

There's material there for both notions - when Raest first sees K'rul he immediately thinks of Hood. But later, once he knows who K'rul is, no more mentions of Hood or death. I don't think K'rul was an Elder God of Death.

Also, I think the title Raest gives Hood - "the Death Wanderer" - suggests that at the time of Raest's imprisonment Hood was not yet the King of High House Death.

[GardenGnome]

True, you don't have to defend it, as such. A crazy theory is wild speculations on areas we don't really know about. However, having a theory that flies in the face of what we do know is kind of silly.

As Dolorous points out, Raest knew of the Death wanderer. From what Silverfox and Paran says somewhere in MoI, I believe, we know that wandering predates holds, which again predates houses. An entirely different dicsussion, and very interesting discussion, would be the differences between these three stages, and how it evolves from one to the other.

But ok, I'll give your idea some merit. It's possible - allthough I doubt it - that K'rul could have been the former god of death. I especially like the bit with dreams vs death. However, it seems far more plausible that there is some other connecting between K'rul and Hood. Also, about Rath'Hood - keep in mind, he's one of the "leaders" of the council, therefore it could just as much be outrage at being defied, or because it is expected of him, as it could be something personal between Hood and K'rul.

[Dolorous Menhir]

A question that occured to me reading the extract quoted above:

we know Raest was imprisoned by the Imass & his fellow Jaghut before the Tellann Ritual, from the MoI prologue. Pannion's mother, who thought about recently imprisoning Raest, was killed by pre-Ritual Imass, the group including Pran Chole.

So if Raest was out of the picture before the Ritual took place, how does he know of the T'lan Imass and their powers?

It's possible the world knew of the Ritual in advance, though I don't believe that, but even if the Jaghut knew the Ritual was coming, how could they know what it would do or involve? It's not like the Imass had committed self-genocide and become an undead army before.

[Illuyankas]

Perhaps he took the knowledge from Mammot's mind?

[GardenGnome]

Or that it's just another inconsistency in timelines...

[Obdigore]

perhaps he has become somewhat aware before, and clans of T'lan have converged to 'sing him a lullibie' as it were, and so he has felt the change that has come over the Imass?

or its a GOTMism... you know, whichever.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Illuyankas;135580 said:

Perhaps he took the knowledge from Mammot's mind?

Well, much like Ganath, Raest didn't know what race Kruppe was when he first encounters him - though he could instantly see Imass in his appearance and tongue. So I doubt he plumbed Mammot for ancient history of the Imass while neglecting to find out about the dominant race of the day, a race that Mammot was a member of.

[Abyss]

Wasn't that before he possessed Mammot?

- Abyss, could sell floss to Jaghuts