[tiam]

Morgoth said:

perhaps they made a bargin? Or perhaps Hood asked Paran to save WJ sister as an atempt to seek forgiveness for killing wj himself?

That could be true. i like that idea actually. that would be a good way for Hood to get the MotD on his side. Not just indebted but actually on Hoods side. A nice idea

[zeeny]

Paran's reaction points to Hood asking something Ganoes would rather not do. I doubt saving ANYBODY falls into that category. Imo, whatever Hood asked involves treason to somebody or something Paran is associated with.

[tiam]

yeh maybe betraying another god or someone close. Maybe Silverfox so that Paran can hand over the Imass souls to Hood

[Father Light]

In addition to the hood as Jaghut thread i add the following info...

When Feather Witch is describing the holds she states "and upon the Throne of Ice sits Death cowled and frost rimed". hence adding more weight to the idea that hood is jaghut and was master of a hold before aquiring or creating a warren of his own.

apologies if this has been posted before but i don't recall it having been and can't be bothered to read the 15 pgs of posts again to find out!

if it hasn't then i think this a salient point.

pf ref is 61.

[Dolorous Menhir]

That's one of the two main supports of the Hood=Jaghut theory. When people try and backup H=J, that's what they refer to. It is by far the most obvious link in the chain of reasoning.

The other being Gethol's comments upon dismissal from HHDeath.

[Ivan the terrible]

I was just thinking about otataral in relation to Krul. If the Warrens are veins, then surely Otataral must be a blood clotting agent. It reacts to close up a wound in the body by stopping the flow of blood or magic. It would mean the deposits of Otataral occur where a diastourous wound has occured. Maybe, this could if this has been brought up before i apoligise

[Obdigore]

I like that theory, but how can the 'Rent' be explained? Also, why does it not appear and shut down magic when people move between warrens?

I would think Otataral is more a type of un-used magic. There is a dragon of that type, why not anther, and a warren full of the stuff, and there was some massive seepage when the jade giants came down looking for their god? If the nascent can be flooded, why cant Wu be 'flooded' from another warren?

Other than the fact that no human would look for a warren to nulify all magic, and if they found it, how could they access it? Why would any of the elder races need too, as it does nothing to them?

Could it be an offshoot of high thyr(the healing warren), that is able to instantaly lingering sorcerous damage, and the body as well?

No, I cannot explain the teblor cliffs of the stuff. But I cannot explain how the oceans came to be either. Perhaps Toblakai's do not become warrens unto themselves, thats just what it appears, as they tap into the power of the Otataral warren?

Thoughts?

[Ivan the terrible]

What gives you the idea that Otataral is a warren? I can only guess at Morn that the souls acts as a stop gap measure, kind of like a skin graft. I don't understand why you think it would shut it down noticible blood clotting occurs in the event of a serious wound not from the flow of blood from one vein to another. Noticiable ore deposits ie blood clotting could only be seen where external bleed out occurs outside Krul i.e Chaos incursions into the ordered system.

Also the reason elder magics could be explined by the bodily metaphor. Blood clotting can prevent seepage from the weaker veins, but once an artery is cut the flow cannot be stopped. Thus otataral nullifys the younger warrens but cannot deal with the older important ones. They can only be closed off by the power of the soul the will. See Kulp Dead house Gates. A warren flowing unchecked can cause a wound

[airheadgreg]

OK to drift back several pages, how do we know that Traveller on drift avail is Dassem Ultor? As far as I know there are three Malazan soldiers who have ?fakes their own deaths, one being keeper who ?drowned?.

I got the impression that Dassem Ultor became Hoods man in Memories Of Ice?you know the guy with swords stuck in his hands?who never dreams?because there?s that idea that Dassem actually died? If I?m wrong any help to who each guy is will help me?


-Greg

[Obdigore]

Ivan the terrible said:

What gives you the idea that Otataral is a warren? I can only guess at Morn that the souls acts as a stop gap measure, kind of like a skin graft. I don't understand why you think it would shut it down noticible blood clotting occurs in the event of a serious wound not from the flow of blood from one vein to another. Noticiable ore deposits ie blood clotting could only be seen where external bleed out occurs outside Krul i.e Chaos incursions into the ordered system.

Also the reason elder magics could be explined by the bodily metaphor. Blood clotting can prevent seepage from the weaker veins, but once an artery is cut the flow cannot be stopped. Thus otataral nullifys the younger warrens but cannot deal with the older important ones. They can only be closed off by the power of the soul the will. See Kulp Dead house Gates. A warren flowing unchecked can cause a wound

1) The fact that there is an Otataral Dragon, and it seems that all dragons have a related, aspected warren.

2) In there, you indicated that when you cut yourself, only your skin heals, and your body does not? (Veins do not bleed into one another, and all over the muscle/fat/bone without consequences.)

3) I see the opening/closing of a warren (through a gateway) as a violent event, not something gently accomplished. That is why OT should show up anywhere warrens open into each other. Clotting helps keep blood in the proper veins, not just in the body.

4) I am not trying to argue with you. I personally think your theory is about as likely as mine, and vice versa. I had just never though of the substance of OT until you mentioned it.

[airheadgreg]

Hetan said:

If he doesn't leave his warren, why is he known as the death wanderer?

OK so in Hoods Warren, Hood does not livebut he wanders according to Reast, but before houses were hold before holds were wanderings, so Reast i VERY old so may still only know of wanderings, Hood being the last wanderer not transfering to a hold or warren until after Reasts inprisonment...?


-Greg

[Ivan the terrible]

Yeah i agree with you both are unlikely. I did not mean that otataral does not occur internally just that it would not be visible to us. because it would in occur in Chaos the relam in between warrens. The elder warrens and thus internal clotting is irrelevent. It is when Chaos is unleashed outside of the body it becomes harmful and needs to be quenched by a soul or Otataral

[Sty]

Ivan the terrible said:

I was just thinking about otataral in relation to Krul. If the Warrens are veins, then surely Otataral must be a blood clotting agent. It reacts to close up a wound in the body by stopping the flow of blood or magic. It would mean the deposits of Otataral occur where a diastourous wound has occured. Maybe, this could if this has been brought up before i apoligise

Isn't it mentioned somewhere in DG that some huge sorcerous event took place during the time of the First Empire to shape the otataral island?
I believe someone (might be Heboric) muses on this somewhere in there..

[Ivan the terrible]

Yeah but he doesn't explain his nature, he just theorises that it occured after some huge magical event or where magic has run out. He like us doesn't really know

[airheadgreg]

OK idea for the shaping of our wonderous island, but a point first, what are the Jade giants and why are they deep withing the Otataral. My idea is that as Otataral is created as Heboric muses by a large scale unleashing of sorcery. So the Jade giants are Teblor yet bigger and could wield magic, with a great unleashing causing the island to be made as the rent created tries to heal Otataral is built up around taking the Jade Giants soul (and all the likewise jade giant souls) to seal this massive rent.

This would also explain the mountains of Otataral the Teblor use as blood oil, there being a Jade Giant deep within...

-Greg

Oh and a possible idea that their is infact a jade giant for each hold???maybe???

[Obdigore]

the giants are actually vessels for Souls (although, maybe they are just chained to them, like all of Karsa's enem...victims.)

We dont rightly know, except during the jade-storm near the end of BH, Quick can here a chorus of souls crying out. And Heboric embraces them all.

[Illuyankas]

The Jade Giants don't move, they are hollow statues with souls inside, sent here behind the CG for some unknown purpose.

As to Morn, the Rent was bridged by a soul as soon as it was made, so no otataral had the time to form.

[Obdigore]

yes, but the jade giants probably crashed down sometime. or are we assuming that they always have been there, since Burn took a 'quick afternoon nap'?

[Illuyankas]

Well, they are passing through an enormous rip and trying to hit a target of (proportionally) minimal size, over a period of 120,000 years or so. So a few have landed since the CG came down.