[worry]

An interesting question. I haven't gone over the book scene again yet, but I do think people are gonna analyze it and perhaps reassess it a bunch now.

[Terez]

Now GRRM has commented:

http://io9.com/georg...game-1565762209

[QuickTidal]

That scene was deeply uncomfortable to watch, and yeah it's REALLY hard to see it as anything but rape (regardless of what the Director said about it [Benioff though apparently doesn't see it as the director did...so their views on it don't really seem to align which is odd])

...I mean in the book the sex is consensual (but still really disturbing because it's still incestuous and happens next to the corpse of their dead son)

I mean the whole thing is effed...but what suffers most in it is Jaime's Season 3 (book 3) road to redemption...by AFFC Jaime has essentiually realized his sister had him snowed for hiw whole life, realizing she convinced him they loved one another...when in reality she only desired power, and sex...and he finally gets that, and moves towards being a better person...and that sex scene in the books is kind of their last hurrah before he's fully off of her as his drug...but in the show they've now backpeddled him to a place it's going to be REALLY uphill to get past. And that's kind of sad.

I don't understand why they chose that route, when the scene could have played like it did in the books without much effort...I'm truly baffled why they didn't.

Though it really sounds like Benioff and Weiss wanted one thing from it, and the director wanted something totally different. I wonder if he's going to get the directing gig again after such a brouhaha...I mean he has gone on record as saying "it BECAME consenual by the end of the scene"....but if he has to explain that to us as the audience, he fucking FAILED as a director. The editor answers to him, and he has final say on the scene...so he fucked up as far as I'm concerned.

[Stormcat]

That scene was horrible. Seriously Awful. I have read the books and my husband has not. So I try to keep spoilers to a minimum and still answer questions him and his work buddies have. All I could say was wow it did it go down like that in the books. He just plummeted back into disgusting territory.

This post has been edited by Stormcat: 21 April 2014 - 11:55 PM

[amphibian]

Reading the scene, I think what happened in the sept was mostly rape. There's elements of ambiguity from Cersei, but the scene suggests to me Jaime forcing through the objections and Cersei mitigating that force with her actions.

I think most people are upset because they now think of Jaime as a "good guy", rather than the frequently murderous and violent aristocrat he is. A side effect of this scene is that it calls to question what redemption is, how sticky a concept it is and whether a second redemption is possible.

I think I'm okay with the hbo scene as it is, although I am aware that this may come off as shock tactics rather than an actual thing that has to happen in the story. If they repeat this in other fashion, I'll not support that.

To be clear, I fully support the push for more women with agency in literature and other entertainment. It's far overdue and benefits us all.

[Cause]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 21 April 2014 - 07:57 PM, said:

I realise it's a completely futile gesture but I'm done with the show. Turning yet another consensual sex scene into rape for shock factor (despite breaking an arc you already accelerated) is just the final step too far. I've already been a bit uneasy with the interpretations of some of the female characters (Melisandre being the main one) but I can't get angry and feel conflicted about it if I cease watching it. Ho hum.

Will you Clarify? I don't like Melisandre much in the show but I feel she is as she is meant to be. My only complaint is that she is far more transparent in the show than in the books but I would hardly call her a good character. She has perhaps a goal of the greater good but she is willing to employ any means to see it done. I also have always thought that her actions are at least partly selfish. She wants to play her part in history.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

I was slightly taken aback when I saw the rape scene and thought I must've misremembered the book - looking back, I now appreciate that it's slightly more ambiguous and we only read Jaime's viewpoint, so the argument could well be made it was rape - but it didn't come across that way to me at the first time of reading (or indeed, at the re-read).

One interesting thing I did get though by watching with a non-reader is that they immediately picked up on the redemption thing and pointed out how quickly people seemed to have forgotten he was fucking his sister, kills indiscriminately on the battlefield/escaping from Robb Stark, and more to the point throws a kid out of a tower window. People seemed to like his character and were desperate to see him redeemed as a sort of romanticized Arthurian knight, but I think this has re-emphasised how unpleasantly human most of the characters are and made it feel a little more real.

All that being said though, I think it was a horrible scene to watch and unnecessary to portray it so graphically on screen; I think I'll be scene skipping on the re-watch...

[Tsundoku]

Gold.

http://www.news.com....i-1226896018412

[Gothos]

barely started season 4 yesterday but got interrupted. on the good side, seems the gf started enjoying the series, blasting though eps 1-3 of the first season last night. wheeee!

[blackzoid]

So..Jaime's a rapiest? Ok...
That wasn't in my version of Storm of Swords, but I guess its been a while since I read it.

[QuickTidal]

Just realized one of the stops on my forthcoming honeymoon is Dubrovnik.

So...I'm going to King's Landing!

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 27 April 2014 - 11:57 PM

[QuickTidal]

Sombra, on 25 April 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

Gold.

http://www.news.com....i-1226896018412

Cool revised script.

Though the person who wrote the article erroneously calls the show "beleagured" like this has already or will affect the ratings in any way...which is just poor journalism. People are surely talking and discussing the scene, but it doesn't mean people are hating on the show now or it's suffering in any way in the ratings / reception overall.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 28 April 2014 - 12:07 AM

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

what the white walkers the what what what what.

[HoosierDaddy]

Yeah, that was neat. Learning more about the Others in 10 minutes than 5 books, lol.

[amphibian]

Yes, like that some of them have better fashion sense than others amongst the Others.

/worrywort

[Terez]

He cut off Jamie's hand. If I remember correctly, Tywin sent him there. Maybe not. In any case, looks like they're expanding Bran's story slightly, which is good since he didn't have much to do for the next two seasons.

[worry]

He's working with Ramsey to hunt down the Stark kids. First step, get cozy with Jon Snow.

[Terez]

Ahhh, I don't remember that at all.

[worry]

Locke was there in the Reek scene where Ramsey showed his worth to Roose.

[Stormcat]

So this new white walker stuff... does that mean George is laying out stuff that is supposed to be in future books? It looks more and more like he is going to let the show finish the books.