[QuickTidal]

Malaclypse, on 02 May 2014 - 08:58 PM, said:

I watch this show and I mostly enjoy it but I am driven to analyze the differences and after the latest episode, I gave thanks to all the gods, above and below, that the Malazan material will never be corrupted in this way, at least not in my lifetime. Please no.

Also, how is this corrupted when you don't know the end of the story exactly? We don't knwo whether GRRM has a scene like that in the books and we haven't reached it yet?

[worry]

That was rad. Besides Lysa's clunky little infodump on Jon Arryn, that might be my fave of the season so far.

[Terez]

Yeah, that was clunky. I wonder if it's what GRRM had in mind. It doesn't seem to fit very well.

Also, the Cersei-Margaery conversation was a strange one. I don't know what to make of it. It seems to have been intended to be sincere on Cersei's part.

[worry]

Well, it's cuz Mace is the third judge in Tyrion's trial. She was covering all the bases.

This post has been edited by worry: 05 May 2014 - 07:42 AM

[Terez]

Good point. Puts Margaery's reaction in a bit more perspective.

[worry]

[QuickTidal]

No one is going to mention it?

Jon Snow killing Owen Harper through the back of the neck out the mouthhole...including a brilliantly horryfing side shot of the whole thing...

Both the Mrs. and I were like "Ooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!" for like a straight minute. Well played GoT...that was gory.

Also, Arya practicing her water dancing and mentioning Syrio was great! I really can't wait for her to get to Braavos now!

[Terez]

[Spoilsport Stonny]

QuickTidal, on 05 May 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

No one is going to mention it?

Jon Snow killing Owen Harper through the back of the neck out the mouthhole...including a brilliantly horryfing side shot of the whole thing...

Both the Mrs. and I were like "Ooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!" for like a straight minute. Well played GoT...that was gory.

Also, Arya practicing her water dancing and mentioning Syrio was great! I really can't wait for her to get to Braavos now!

That was badass.

As per Arya's conversation with Sandor re: Syrio vs. Meryn Trant...Well that's all the proof I need to know that Syrio ain't dead. As if his off-screen "death" wasn't enough.

[amphibian]

I fully agree with the Hound regarding the silly forms Arya is doing.

There's a reason why the Hound, the Mountain and many others are walking around while Syrio isn't - they're better at fighting than he was. The kung fu/tae kwon do empty forms stuff doesn't work for real combat, which is something martial artists have been fitfully learning for centuries now.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

amphibian, on 05 May 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

I fully agree with the Hound regarding the silly forms Arya is doing.

There's a reason why the Hound, the Mountain and many others are walking around while Syrio isn't - they're better at fighting than he was. The kung fu/tae kwon do empty forms stuff doesn't work for real combat, which is something martial artists have been fitfully learning for centuries now.

Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side.

[amphibian]

In the long view of things, actually, yes, the galaxy is far better off without the Jedi, Sith and other magicians. Would kick 'em out in a heartbeat if it were up to me.

[Garak]

Or in this case wearing armor.

EDIT: Amphibian are you Kreia by any chance?

This post has been edited by Garak: 05 May 2014 - 04:01 PM

[amphibian]

Garak, on 05 May 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

Or in this case wearing armor.

EDIT: Amphibian are you Kreia by any chance?

I didn't know what Kreia meant, so I looked it up.

I suppose that "JEDI/SITH GTFO" general position is one I could agree with, but it seems like she caved in the end.

Arya won't cave and she now knows water dancing is BS.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 05 May 2014 - 04:23 PM

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 05 May 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

I fully agree with the Hound regarding the silly forms Arya is doing.

There's a reason why the Hound, the Mountain and many others are walking around while Syrio isn't - they're better at fighting than he was. The kung fu/tae kwon do empty forms stuff doesn't work for real combat, which is something martial artists have been fitfully learning for centuries now.

Hang on.

A. Syrio is alive. The allusions in both book and screen (not showing his death in either media) is proof of that.

B. Syrio's fighting style is superior to the Hound or Meryn Trant (or any other armored knight with a meat cleaver)...Syrio most likely escaped and purposely didn't move in to kill because he knew he needed to get away, the city was rising in revolt around him...but moreover, unless Trant, or the Hound, or any other armored warrior was kitted out in plate covering EVERY part of their body with no gaps in said armour (fairly impossible)....Syrio would be lightning fast, and could get his slim sword through those gaps. In the scene with the Hound Arya's forms are only that, forms...she never got to learn how to apply them properly. That's why she can't do anything to the Hound, she's not fast enough yet, or blind enough yet, or educated enough yet...to get the sword through his defenses. She'll learn that all in Braavos. It would be like showing someone Kung-fu forms, but never showing someone how to apply them to a match. Same deal.

C. There is, I imagine, a reason why the Faceless men of Braavos are so feared by all in Westeros and elsewhere. It sounds like when they are fully trained and ready, they are nigh untouchable/unkillable.

Personally, I can't wait till Arya comes into her own, learns all she neeeds to learn, and comes back and ices every last person still alive from her list....armoured or otherwise.

[amphibian]

QuickTidal, on 05 May 2014 - 04:43 PM, said:

Hang on.

A. Syrio is alive. The allusions in both book and screen (not showing his death in either media) is proof of that.

Then why is Meryn Trant alive? Syrio is not alive and the refusal to accept his death is because people like weeaboo stuff to an irrational degree.

Quote

B. Syrio's fighting style is superior to the Hound or Meryn Trant (or any other armored knight with a meat cleaver)...Syrio most likely escaped and purposely didn't move in to kill because he knew he needed to get away, the city was rising in revolt around him...but moreover, unless Trant, or the Hound, or any other armored warrior was kitted out in plate covering EVERY part of their body with no gaps in said armour (fairly impossible)....Syrio would be lightning fast, and could get his slim sword through those gaps. In the scene with the Hound Arya's forms are only that, forms...she never got to learn how to apply them properly. That's why she can't do anything to the Hound, she's not fast enough yet, or blind enough yet, or educated enough yet...to get the sword through his defenses. She'll learn that all in Braavos. It would be like showing someone Kung-fu forms, but never showing someone how to apply them to a match. Same deal.

C. There is, I imagine, a reason why the Faceless men of Braavos are so feared by all in Westeros and elsewhere. It sounds like when they are fully trained and ready, they are nigh untouchable/unkillable.

Personally, I can't wait till Arya comes into her own, learns all she neeeds to learn, and comes back and ices every last person still alive from her list....armoured or otherwise.

You sound like a crazy person. Kung fu does not work in real fights. They have to switch it to San Da, bastardize "techniques" and more to get things to work. Kung fu and other empty form arts are basically dancing that somewhat correlates with actual fighting. Even their limited versions of sparring suck. It's a profoundly bad way to train, but hey, it looks cool and people like going with the flash over the real stuff. A highly trained warrior in plate armor like Meryn Trant is going to murder even the best and most skilled swordsman alive if that person is armed with a wooden stick and nothing else. All he has to do is twist a couple times, corner Syrio and stick a sword in him. There's nothing more to it than that.

The Faceless men are feared because they are assassins - ambushing people with poison, knives and so on for unknown reasons and often leaving the victim looking like they'd just had a bad accident, rather than being murdered. They do not do what the Mountain does - walk right up to a person and murder them in single combat in broad view of everyone. The Faceless men also have the added bonus of being inscrutable.

Arya has zero shot at ever being a warrior on the level of Brienne or the Hound, much less the Mountain, so going the assassin route is far better for her prospects. The Hound backhanding her to the ground was a kindness, even if impolitely delivered and done AFTER she said to his face that she was going to try and murder him eventually.

[Primateus]

I have to agree with Amphibian here. Martial arts, waterdancing and such are all well and good until someone comes along who's not playing by the same rules.

Like the fight between Jorah and the horsedude in season 1. Horsedude got slaughtered because the rules he'd been going by his whole life (armour makes you heavy and slow plus I like to jump around with my curved sword and try to look badass) didn't avail him squat against a well-trained knight in armour!

[Binder of Demons]

In the case of the tv show, and Syrio fighting Trant, since we don't see the conclusion, I think the most likely scenario is that it came down to the two of them in the room, Syrio somehow escaped and Trant decided that it was easiest to say he killed him. (say for arguments sake, stabbed Syrio, Syrio falls out window, no body found, but "must have died". Wasn't there a window looking out over water?).

As for martial arts being "useless" for real world fighting, I'd dispute that. You even allude to as much by saying you'd have to use bastardised versions of the techniques taught in a real world scenario. But you could use them, if you were willing to do whatever is necessary. And that is where I think the real distinction lies. The mentality for the use of the art.

In the case of a character like Arya, her doing the "water dance" routine is a perfectly good way for her to improve her form and technique in the absence of a teacher, and a person to spar with. The Hound might be the one that gives her the right mindset to use those techniques more wisely (at least until Braavos)

It would always be ludicrous for Arya to try and fight armoured Knights in trials of strength and heavy sword play. But she could have equally decided to stab the Hound once or twice quickly in the legs (femoral artery), and then back up while he bleeds out, rather than a straight poke in the chest through armour. But she never even considered this, as her mindset was that of someone conditioned to seeing "Fair" sword-fights.

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 05 May 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 05 May 2014 - 04:43 PM, said:

Hang on.

Syrio is alive. The allusions in both book and screen (not showing his death in either media) is proof of that.

Then why is Meryn Trant alive? Syrio is not alive and the refusal to accept his death is because people like weeaboo stuff to an irrational degree.

As I said Meryn Trant is alive because Syrio decided that it was much more worth getting out of it, rather than stay to fight him properly. If he did as is assumed (slipped away and became Jaquen Hagar by changing his face)...do we assume for one minute that the Kingsguard who faced him including Trant would ADMIT that he bested them and escaped? Not on your life.

Also, weeaboo stuff? Hang on. A Mediterranean (Braavos is an island and Forel on TV was played by a Greek) swordsman is all of the sudden included in a nasty internet term to denote people obsessed with Anime and Japanese culture? And that somehow ties into people not wanting him to be dead?

I don't even know where to start Amph.

I'll set the record straight, for me anyways lest I be labelled with a meme...I believe Syrio to be alive because of the following:

A. In both book and movie he doesn't die on screen/page. In the entertainment structural narrative this is done for one reason and one reason only...so they can live again later. If this weren't the case and the point was just to show Arya that he died...both Martin and the show would have had it happen with her watching...like they have done with literally every other shocking/not shocking death. Syrio (I believe) is the ONLY death in ASOIAF that we aren't a party to as audience. Every other one is on page / on screen. That has a purpose, whether you wish to see it or not.

B. Faceless men can change their face. Easy to escape, not only to fight another day...but to continue to help Arya. We also assume that Syrio confronted the Kingsguard AS Syrio. If he changed his face, it's entirely possible he did it after Arya left the room, but before the Kingsguard showed up. If they can change their face (as we saw on the show)...who's to say they can't change their body to look dead....only to still be alive under the glamour. Trant & Co. retreat believing him dead...he escapes.

C. We also assume, possibly wildly incorrectly that the Syrio that WE meet...is the real face. It's possible, even probably that the face Arya meets isn't his true face.

D. Arya mentions upon meeting Jaquen (on her way out of the city not too long after her master's supposed death) that there is something in his voice that reminds her of Syrio. What if he doesn't leave her? What if he merely delays meeting up with her again?

EDIT: Here is a nice long post with more points as to why Syrio is alive...

But yeah, with regards to the rest of your comments. I don't think I ought to get into that with you...I digress to your apparent martial arts knowledge over mine...but man, I have a few friends who would vehemently disagree with you about such a generalization.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 05 May 2014 - 07:14 PM

[polishgenius]

There's no real evidence that Syrio is alive, and GRRM is dismissive of the idea. The whole theory hinges on the idea of him being a Faceless Man, but that's an unsupported leap.

Even if he didn't die, he's definitely not Jaqen and I doubt we'll ever see him again, in any significant fashion.


As for the water-dancing being superior thing- sure, but in an equal fight. The series has form for showing how armour and a big fucking sword beats speed, with aged and outnumbered Barristan Selmy beating up on the bodyguards of that chap in Dance. Sure, he'd be better than them rag-tag bunch and could indeed win a fight v an average man in armour, but he was also far more disadvantaged.


And Arya isn't learning Water Dancing in Braavos. That's not what the Faceless Men do. Like has been said, she's learning to kill people without getting into a fight at all.