[HoosierDaddy]

That would make him a human d'ivers, and that would not be the first time it's happened.

[Bear]

Quote

That would make him a human d'ivers, and that would not be the first time it's happened.

That was my thought as well...

[HoosierDaddy]

I don't necessarily agree that it is the case, but someone else pointed out all the different characters mentioning Quick Ben "unleashing" himself.

Ruthan Guud knew of the Nah'ruk's abilities, meaning he has ancient memories. The Che'Maile weren't necessarily still around at the time of the Human First Empire or Kallor's Empire, during which the destruction of Jacuruku took place with the fall of Kaminsod, and we know he remembers a Jacuruku prior to the fall, meaning he is ancient indeed.

Powerful enough to be wanted by an Azath, very very very old, definitely at least an ascendant from pre-Human era Wu. Who knows who or what he is.

[Skywalker]

Bear, on 09 September 2009 - 03:19 AM, said:

Quote

That would make him a human d'ivers, and that would not be the first time it's happened.

That was my thought as well...

ROTCG spoiler:

Spoiler

He wouldn't be the first human d'ivers we've met if this were the case... ROTCG had Ho, Ho, and Ho.

In any case, I think QB being d'ivers is unlikely. If he was, he'd have used it before when he was stretched oh so thin (in MOI/ BH)

[Tiste Simeon]

Unless his D'ivers ability was released once he became stretched by Icarium? Since then he didn't really need to use that particular ability. Against the sisters? Nah, he was able to pummel them and let their treacherous plans do the rest. And with Silchas, he had the aid of a cusser.

[Quick~]

I'll just park myself firmly in the Grizzin Farl corner, he was name dropped quite a few times during the book and we all know how hard it is to finish an EG fully, regardless of whether anyone really remembers them.

[MTS]

It's funny that this turned into a real possibility when it started as a joke. I'm not sure myself, but it's conceivable.

[Abyss]

Wow, this thread, it drafts, rights tiself, tangents out to the stratosphere and then realigns...


For what its worth, when Gudd recalls escaping an Azath, he mentions something about 'flaming fists', - we're only aware of two azath being beaten to death. The Odhan House that Iccy broke and the one Osseric trashed in the RCG prologue. If Gudd was in either of those, he is oooooold.

Grizzin Farl gets thrown around every time a mystery identity arises. Could be QB, could be Gudd, hey, how many of you thought Kilamandaros was a dude up until we saw her in TB? Krul sent Keruli to Genabackis. Bugg spent the last few decades concealing who and what he is. There are no rules when it comes to Elder Gods, but there are also a lot of types of ascendents, so anything is possible. griz gets dropped in a lot because he's the only Elder God aside from Father Light, we've never seen at this point. (and no, i don't think Gudd is Father Light).

I commented elsethread that Gudd's 'noble sacrifice' seemed to come out of nowehere. he displays no particular fondness or loyalty to the Malazans before then. I'm wondering if maybe he was happy to charge into the Nah'ruk because he wouldn't die.

I agree the 'she' he was referring to was his sword in some way.

- Abyss, remains curious.

[MTS]

Abyss, on 09 September 2009 - 01:23 PM, said:

I agree the 'she' he was referring to was his sword in some way.

- Abyss, remains curious.

I'm of that opinion too. Tarr refers to Corabb's sword as a 'her' earlier on in the book, so there's precedent for it, and it's common anyway. I don't see some other theory being more plausible.

[Sindriss]

Maybe he used the socalled "suicide" to get away from the army, nobody would bother looking for him if they all thought he was incinerated by the nakruk

[MTS]

That's at odds with his POV though. His motive is to warn the Bonehunters of what they are facing. If indeed he wanted to get away, he needn't have charged into the fray, just slipped away in the fracas that followed. He'd have been intelligent enough to consider that before committing suicide to save his own skin.

I think it was more altruism on his part. That's if he knew he could survive, though. If not, then he's a useless martyr.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 09 September 2009 - 01:55 PM

[Abyss]

Mappo, on 09 September 2009 - 01:54 PM, said:

That's at odds with his POV though. His motive is to warn the Bonehunters of what they are facing. If indeed he wanted to get away, he needn't have charged into the fray, just slipped away in the fracas that followed. He'd have been intelligent enough to consider that before committing suicide to save his own skin.

I think it was more altruism on his part. That's if he knew he could survive, though. If not, then he's a useless martyr.

But that's my point, speculative tho it may be.
Rather than sit in the ranks and wait for the massacre, he charged in to let them see he was ascendent (or whatever) and couldn't win so they should run for it, all this knowing that whatever happened he would not die even if the Nahruk 'killed' his body.

The martydom didn't fit with what we had seen of the character up to that point. He had a certain fatalistic streak, but he had also commented on seeing action and fighting to stay alive.

- Abyss, stayin a-liiiiiIIIIIiiiiiiiiiiive....

[Tiste Simeon]

He could be Denuth? Unless Denuth reappeared at some point and I missed it... Or was Ereko Denuth??

[Abyss]

Ereko was Denuth. Maybe.

The fact that Gudd anticipates a fight to the death with Draconus and that he's able to use Stormrider gear without dying really does speak to someone of considerable power, even if he's not showing it for whatever reason.

If he was a god, then either he was concealing his power or he had been depowered (see Fener, Errant, others) to the point that the Nahruk could kill him, or his 'death' was faked.

If he was an ascendent or otherwise immortal in the ageless sense, then he sacrificed himself and I suppose the message was that in the company of the Bonehunters even an immortal could be made to act like a mortal and sacrifice himself.

Btw, to my uncertain recollection, Stormriders use lances and wands. This is the first time we've seen a sword attributed to them. I wonder if that's significant.

- Abyss, ...ice ice baby...

[Tiste Simeon]

Was Greymanes sword in ROTCG meant to be a stormriders one, or was it something else? I forget...

[HoosierDaddy]

Common thought was it was connected to Burn due to the talk about unleashing it so close to Burn's old temple.

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

This is going to be a bit sideways, but BH Gudd is a Captain, talking to Gall, and Madan'Tul Rada, another Captain...

Looking through the RG Dramatis Personae, Madan goes down to Faradan Sort's Lieutenant, Gudd isn't listed.

So while I'm sure someone is going to pat me gently on the head and say the timeline isn't important, or something... Just... Uh?

This post has been edited by Hellian's Keg Lid: 10 September 2009 - 04:03 PM

[Urizen]

Hellian, on 10 September 2009 - 04:03 PM, said:

This is going to be a bit sideways, but BH Gudd is a Captain, talking to Gall, and Madan'Tul Rada, another Captain...

Looking through the RG Dramatis Personae, Madan goes down to Faradan Sort's Lieutenant, Gudd isn't listed.

So while I'm sure someone is going to pat me gently on the head and say the timeline isn't important, or something... Just... Uh?

I can give you a pat on the head.

The whole thing can be explained by the fact Madan'tul Rada initially is Faradan Sort's lieutenant, then Sort goes AWOL after Y'gathan(Sp?), which leads to Rada getting bumped up to Captain to replace Sort, Sort then comes back and is reinstated as Captain and Rada goes back to being her lieutenant.

Gudd is probably not listed in the DP of RG since we don't see on stage anytime during RG.

[HoosierDaddy]

I forget, but he also could have been a battlefield promotion. The Marines were the only Malazan group to take any significant casualties during their march on Letheras in RG.

[Egwene]

Well, when he gets asked by Captain Skanarow as to who promoted him, he becomes evasive, but we do get a Gudd PoV (page 370 DoD) that he lost two lieutenants in Y'Ghatan so he was definitely promoted by then.

There is a bit of a discrepency about Faradan's sword. When she first turns up, people assume she stood the wall due to the markings, and I can't remember if they were on sword or scabbard or both. However when the sword breaks as she digs out the Y'Ghatan survivors, she basically says that no, it's not the real thing - that got left in a body somewhere. So Gudd picking up a Stormrider sword without being a Stormrider is quite possible (and as has been said - his POV during the battle also indicates that he has the sword but wasn't a Stormrider before). Faradan's comment also seems to imply that if it had been the real thing it would not have broken... it seems fair to deduct that the sword itself is heavily invested. However, during that PoV on page 370, Gudd ponders the etchings on her sword and the kind of damage that could only come from the deadly touch of wand-magic which seems to indicate that Sort still has her sword and intact.

I would have thought though that if Gudd had carried the sword openly, Faradan would have recognised it. So he must have disguised it somehow.

It is odd that in a Gudd PoV early in the book he thinks of himself as not a very good fighter and altogether doesn't show much in the way of self-confidence. That makes me wonder if it isn't more likely that much like T'Amber he is at times possessed by someone, rather than the real thing.

Gudd is constantly combing fingers through his beard... is that a trait we have seen anywhere else?

Maybe we could put together a list of page numbers for Gudd references. That might make it easier to piece things together.

Edit: oophs... stormriders are on the other side of the wall as Sinisdar Poste kindly pointed out to me. Call it a moment of chaos!

This post has been edited by Egwene: 11 September 2009 - 12:36 PM