[Venerus]

I actually thought he was Grizzn as well, TBH. The Elder Gods mention his name several times, we've seen that EG's like to attach themselves to mortals sometimes (Krul, Mael), and he's super old. He's a powerful ascendant and he has something deeply personal against Draconus. Okay, not very convincing, I know.

However, two things: at one point, Rudd is having one of those internal monologue, and he basically says to himself "I don't want to meddle with those big powers anymore." It read, to me, like he was giving us his reasons to defying the Errant's summons. I'm at work and can't remember, but I thought I remembered the Errant thinking Griz Farl was somehow stuck/indisposed -- being in an Azath would do that. Not knowing that the Azath had been destroyed would be right up the Errant's obliviousness alley. The second thing: it makes more narrative sense if GF's name isn't being thrown around totally at random by the EG's, and that Gudd is someone we've at least heard something about.

Although his name doesn't look anything like GF anymore. So sad. Would have made it so much perfecter.

[Urizen]

Egwene, on 10 September 2009 - 06:17 PM, said:

It is odd that in a Gudd PoV early in the book he thinks of himself as not a very good fighter and altogether doesn't show much in the way of self-confidence.

This seems to be a Tiste Andii trait. TTH showed this both with Nimander and his Posse and to some extent with Spinnock. They don't think very highly of themselves only to proceed to kick some serious ass.

[Illuyankas]

"Oh, I'm pretty awful at swordplay. The last person I sparred against beat me four bouts out of five."
"Who was that?"
"Rake." [insert blender sound effect here]

[Sinisdar Toste]

pedantic bear says: faradan sorts sword was a stormwall sword. gudds sword is a stormrider sword. opposite sides of the conflict

[Egwene]

oophs... glad you pointed that out. Got them well and truly muddled, lol. Thanks for the clarification.

[MTS]

Found Gudd's only dialogue in BH. Very interesting. It's when they're at the ocean waiting for the transports, and Gudd is discussing some T'lan/Jaghut stuff that happened hella' long time ago, and the origins of the Strike, who he claims to be from. I've transcribed it for you. Aren't I nice?

Quote

'...just fell into the sea - those breakers, that tumult in the middle of the bay, that's where the citadel stood. A tier of raised land surrounded it - the island itself - and there was a causeway linking it to this shore - nothing left of that but those pillars just topping the sands above the tideline. It's said the shattering of a Jaghut enclave far to the north was responsible-'
'How could that sink this island?' Gall demanded. 'You make no sense, Captain.'
'The T'lan Imass broke the Jaghut sorcery - the ice lost its power, melted into the seas, and the water levels rose. Enough to eat into this island, deluging the tier, then devouring the feet of the citadel itself. In any case, this was thousands of years ago-'
'Are you a historian as well as a soldier?' the Warleader asked, glancing over, his tear-tattooed face bathed red like a mask in the setting sun's lurid light.
The captain shrugged. 'The first map I saw of Seven Cities was Falari, a sea-current map marking out the treacherous seas along this coast - and every other coastline, all the way to Nemil. It had been copied countless times, but the original dated from the days when the only metals being traded were tin, copper, lead and gold. Falar's trade with Seven Cities goes back a long way, Warleader Gall. Which makes sense, since Falar is halfway between Quon Tali and Seven Cities.'
Captain Kindly observed, 'It's odd, Ruthan Gudd, you do not look Falari. Nor is your name Falari.'
'I am from the island of Strike, Kindly, which lies against the Outer Reach Deeps. Strike is the most isolated of all the islands in the chain, and our legends hold that we are all that remains of the original inhabitants of Falar - the red- and gold-haired folk you see and think of as Falari are in fact invaders from the eastern ocean, from the other side of Seeker's Deep, or some unknown islands well away from the charted courses of that ocean. They themselves do not even recall their homelands, and most of them believe that they have always lived in Falar. But our old maps show different names, Strike names for all the islands and the kingdoms and peoples, and the word "Falar" is not among them.'

It's interesting that he speaks with confidence of something that happened so long ago - it affirms what we know of his longevity. It could be his certainty over the original inhabitants of Falar means that he is from before the Falari came to that archipelago, and that he is a Strikeian human Ascendant. The fact that he knows of a Jaghut enclave's shattering is also interesting. It cements his association with Ice.

Anyway, that's the only revealing details we have of him before DoD, and in light of what we have from DoD, it ain't much. But make of it what you will.

[Varen]

Was reading DoD again last night, just picked it up at a random spot and found the scene where Gudd has woken up in Skanarows bed, just after Draconus has come back.

He is thinking about his future, and the problems of including Skanarow in it, and he think something along the lines of " then i'll have to tell her about the vow". Just wondering if this is a hint as to his real identity. Anyone we know of thats made any important vows and cant be accounted for at minute?

[ritchiediaz]

I don't have my book at the moment, but I think there is a pretty good hint as to Ruthan Gudd's origins during an exchange between The Errant and Sechul Lath when discussing summoning Elder Gods - the Errant says (and i'm paraphrasing, i'll edit later when I have the book)

Quote

there are a lot more Elders than I think we are aware of, just as powerful and old

I think Ruthan Gudd is one of these 'others'.

[MTS]

If Draconus knows him though, one would assume that he is known to the others, thus not making him an 'other', but one of the Elders we know of i.e. Grizzin Farl. Or, perhaps, some non-Elder entity.

[ritchiediaz]

Mappo, on 15 September 2009 - 11:56 AM, said:

If Draconus knows him though, one would assume that he is known to the others, thus not making him an 'other', but one of the Elders we know of i.e. Grizzin Farl. Or, perhaps, some non-Elder entity.

Possibly, although just because Draconus had an encounter doesn't mean that The Errant necessarily is aware of him.

I just think that the Errant's statement was quite clearly pointing out that the Errant, Sechul and Killy don't know every entity that may be considered 'Elder'

[MTS]

ritchiediaz, on 15 September 2009 - 12:02 PM, said:

Mappo, on 15 September 2009 - 11:56 AM, said:

If Draconus knows him though, one would assume that he is known to the others, thus not making him an 'other', but one of the Elders we know of i.e. Grizzin Farl. Or, perhaps, some non-Elder entity.

Possibly, although just because Draconus had an encounter doesn't mean that The Errant necessarily is aware of him.

I just think that the Errant's statement was quite clearly pointing out that the Errant, Sechul and Killy don't know every entity that may be considered 'Elder'

I agree with the statement that was being made, but considering the efficacy of the EGs at the time, it would seem rather odd that Draconus is fairly intimately acquainted with an Elder that is unknown to the Master of the Tiles. Gudd wasn't really hiding, either, if he was known to Draconus. The others were.

[ritchiediaz]

Quote

Gudd wasn't really hiding, either, if he was known to Draconus. The others were.

but isn't Draconus still a bit of a mystery anyway? i don't think you can assume that simply because Draconus had an acquaintance with Ruthan Gudd (or whoever he was at that time) that the Errant or anyone else would know who he was - The Errant seems more or less bound to Lether / First Empire for a start, whereas Gudd was Jacuruku / Korelri.

I'll double check the sequence, but Gudd definitely seems stressed when the Errant is summoning the Elders, but that may have simply been Fid's reading.

Either way he certainly doesn't seem to be Grizzin Farl as Sech and the Errant mention that GF doesn't have a material form at the very least.

[Illuyankas]

GF is mentioned to have lost his physical form, true. However it specifically points out Gudd brushes his fingers through his beard as a reflex action as he's unfamiliar with his new body. So there's still that chance.

[ritchiediaz]

OK, back home got the book, howsabout this:-

Correct quote for above:-

DoD p354 (UK Hardback)

Quote

Ardata. But she is not the only one. I always sensed, Setch, that there were more of us than any of us imagined. Even with my power, my command of the Tiles, I was convinced there were ghosts, hovering at the edge of my vision, my awareness, Ghosts, as ancient and as formiddable as any of us.

DoD p356 (UK Hardback)

Quote

Captain Ruthan Gudd...

Yup.

This post has been edited by ritchiediaz: 15 September 2009 - 09:03 PM

[Cropsalar]

Chaeone, on 19 August 2009 - 07:53 PM, said:

QUOTE (Hetan @ Aug 19 2009, 08:26 PM) I have to agree - it was my thought too that he might be GF... and no, I don't think he's dead.

I still think Yeddan Deryg was awesomer Ice cold and loyal to the point of... loyalty.

Agree, i mean he single handedly took out a FA, then like 4 Liosan, and now i want to know...

What's he gonna do with his shiny new toy?

oh, as a P.S. i love u, he also wiped out eh, was it 100 (?) witches and warlocks.

i think we have a new daddy cool in the ranks.

I just re-realised how unbelievablely badass Yeddan Deryg is.

[chaosek]

Isn't he the infamous Neferius Bredd (or what ever the spelling?).

[cauthon]

WTF is Nefarious Bredd anyway?

[Illuyankas]

Isn't it obvious? He's the Bonehunters equivalent of Grub.

This post has been edited by Illuyankas: 24 September 2009 - 08:38 PM

[Aptorian]

I thought Grub was the Bonehunters equivellant of Grub. He practically gave them their signature name.

You know, come to think of it, how old is Grub supposed to be in DOD. Wasn't he just a toddler in DG?

Is he another Dragon? Or is he in fact a D'iver version of Harlo?

[The Dark Wanderer]

Grub is the Chain of Dogs version of Grub. Sinn is Y'Ghatan (sp?) version of Grub. And I do like the idea of Nefarius Bredd being a similar kind of thing, although I'm not sure it works with timings (yes I know) and also there doesn't seem to be an event/series of events where 'he' would come from. Plus if this set of speculation on Grub/Sinn being avatars almost then it makes sense for them to age in relation to the event that created them. (ie Grub changes as the 'history' of the Chain of Dogs changes so he 'grows up' when Mallick Rel tries to distort the true events and then changes again when the truth comes out when the Wickans help in RotCG).

Feel free to scorn.