[Morgoth]

@Hoosier, Apt

You both seem so sure that Gudd considered the fate of the Bonehunters more important than the preservation of his true identity.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just poitning out that there's a lot of factors in regards to Gudd that we do not know

[Urizen]

This Qoute is somewhat interesting:

Quote

I'll be damned.A Mael-bit Nerruse-whore-spawn Stormrider. Who knew?

QB's thoughts seem to indicate that the Stormriders at least, (and maybe Gudd) have some sort of connection to Nerruse, Lady of calm seas and fair wind.

[Aptorian]

Morgoth, on Sep 4 2009, 10:01 AM, said:

@Hoosier, Apt

You both seem so sure that Gudd considered the fate of the Bonehunters more important than the preservation of his true identity.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just poitning out that there's a lot of factors in regards to Gudd that we do not know

He thought it prudent to Sacrifice himself as a warning to Malazans as to what the Nahruk could display. So, I don't think his secret identity was his biggest concern, he was about to die.

If he really was a god, I think he would have reached out to other powers in the wasteland to try and make them interfere. Imagine if he had contacted Draconus? But he didn't. He had ancient knowledge and a stormrider suit and weaponry. That's about the extent of his power.

Shit, even L'oric was more impressive, he would at least had gotten a wholed of Osric on his ascendant phone.

"Whaaahh, dad the lizards are trying to kill me again!"

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 04 September 2009 - 08:44 AM

[Morgoth]

Aptorian, on Sep 4 2009, 10:43 AM, said:

Morgoth, on Sep 4 2009, 10:01 AM, said:

@Hoosier, Apt

You both seem so sure that Gudd considered the fate of the Bonehunters more important than the preservation of his true identity.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just poitning out that there's a lot of factors in regards to Gudd that we do not know

He thought it prudent to Sacrifice himself as a warning to Malazans as to what the Nahruk could display. So, I don't think his secret identity was his biggest concern, he was about to die.

If he really was a god, I think he would have reached out to other powers in the wasteland to try and make them interfere. Imagine if he had contacted Draconus? But he didn't. He had ancient knowledge and a stormrider suit and weaponry. That's about the extent of his power.

Shit, even L'oric was more impressive, he would at least had gotten a wholed of Osric on his ascendant phone.

"Whaaahh, dad the lizards are trying to kill me again!"

Again you're being a bit too certain in your assumptions here. How important was it for him to hide who he was? Why did he chose to disguise himself as a storm rider to hide his identity if he expected to die anyway?

[Aptorian]

Hide? Everyone knew that was Ruthan Gudd, they were cheering him on.

The armor slowly appeared, as the ice was growing on him and enveloping the horse. He wasn't hiding in it, he was gearing up for the charge, and it was what kept him alive for so long in the melee.

And sorry if I sound so certain when I debate. It's a habit from university classes. Our first year teachers drill into us that we have to say things with certainty, whether we're wrong or right. All that "I'm not sure but I think" stuff and putting things in question form is a no-no. Sometimes I can't help myself.

Also, I am always right, even when I am wrong.

[MTS]

You're a woman, Apt? Huh, who knew.

I think it comes down to the likeliness of him being an EG. We can pretty much figure he's some form of Ascendant, considering how long he's been alive. We can also pretty much figure he's not a Thel Akai or FA or something like that, so the immortality problem points to Ascendancy. Power is really an irrelevant issue here. He was in an Azath, so he must have been fairly powerful at some stage to necessitate such imprisonment. Plus, he was chillin' with Greymane, so you know he's all kinds of badass. So really, whether he is an EG or not will come from what info we have from him previously. Do we have POVs from him in earlier books? That might help figuring out some other clues.

[Aptorian]

The Azaths don't just eat gods you know. Maybe he was drunk and fell a sleep in the wrong garden

[blackzoid]

Not all Elder Gods are the all-powerful elemental beings type.
The Errant was once a mortal, who was whorshipped and then became an Ascendent and then a God.
The Jaghut that Paran meet in BH mentions this.


Gudd could have been like the Errant in this regard.

[MTS]

Aptorian, on Sep 4 2009, 07:11 PM, said:

The Azaths don't just eat gods you know. Maybe he was drunk and fell a sleep in the wrong garden

Well, you never know, maybe he decided "bitch, fuck paths, I'm invincible! Azaff bitch ain't got shit on me!" However, having a conversation with a badass guy like Draconus and staying alive under the ground for god knows how long makes it fairly clear he's more than your average guy.

blackzoid, on Sep 4 2009, 08:12 PM, said:

Not all Elder Gods are the all-powerful elemental beings type.
The Errant was once a mortal, who was whorshipped and then became an Ascendent and then a God.
The Jaghut that Paran meet in BH mentions this.


Gudd could have been like the Errant in this regard.

Could it be that Ganath was...mistaken? *gasp!*

I'm sorry, that was patronising. Anyway, characters have been wrong before. Kallor on the KCCM, for example. We know he's an EG, and Edgewalker is fairly explicit in saying elemental forces are older than God, the Rolling Stones even. Plus, we have that Errant creation story in MT, even if it is less reliable than Fox News in the plausibility department...

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 04 September 2009 - 10:24 AM

[Tiste Simeon]

Also, remember that even elder gods can get pwnt, as in Nightchill got crushed by Tayschrenn, while he was attacking Moons Spawn at the same time...

[Illuyankas]

Grizzin Farl has no physical form. Gudd mentions having this new physical body is weird. Nightchill died an EG in human form with practically a whimper. Chances are good he could be Grizzin Farl.

[presumingpete]

Illuyankas, on 04 September 2009 - 11:34 AM, said:

Grizzin Farl has no physical form. Gudd mentions having this new physical body is weird. Nightchill died an EG in human form with practically a whimper. Chances are good he could be Grizzin Farl.

ah goddammit i was going to say that. Just because he's an elder god doesnt mean he pwns, mael is only so powerful because of his recent rise in popularity, the rest are strong but the errant reckons he's the bees knees but everyone says G paran would whup him up and down and round and round. being an elder god doesnt make you all that, uh huh.

I really doubt those EGs we see are as awesome as they think, its just they got a lot of face time so we think they're stronger cos of it. I'm goin for grizzin farl. working on the assumptions some people are making, why didnt nightchill just kick the stones out of moons spawn? EGs arent necessarily super awesome, especially if the only people who remember you are your old workmates.

[Veilside]

presumingpete, on 06 September 2009 - 02:14 AM, said:

Illuyankas, on 04 September 2009 - 11:34 AM, said:

Grizzin Farl has no physical form. Gudd mentions having this new physical body is weird. Nightchill died an EG in human form with practically a whimper. Chances are good he could be Grizzin Farl.

ah goddammit i was going to say that. Just because he's an elder god doesnt mean he pwns, mael is only so powerful because of his recent rise in popularity, the rest are strong but the errant reckons he's the bees knees but everyone says G paran would whup him up and down and round and round. being an elder god doesnt make you all that, uh huh.

I really doubt those EGs we see are as awesome as they think, its just they got a lot of face time so we think they're stronger cos of it. I'm goin for grizzin farl. working on the assumptions some people are making, why didnt nightchill just kick the stones out of moons spawn? EGs arent necessarily super awesome, especially if the only people who remember you are your old workmates.

What rise in popularity? We only know of one Jhistal priest that worships him.

[MTS]

You're forgetting the common people. Sailors, seafarers, etc. who want safe journeys. I think it happens in ROTCG that they sacrifice a cabin boy to Mael. Plus, Mallick has the Phantom Glove and is now the head of the greatest empire since the FE and Kallor. There's going to be a definite rise in Mael-worship.

[Veilside]

I don't recall that particular moment in RotCG, but I don't think that's any indicator that his worship has increased, for all we know that's a common occurrence.

I don't really see the Malazan people submitting to any sort of state led religion, do you?

This post has been edited by Veilside: 06 September 2009 - 11:58 AM

[MTS]

Beforehand it was more charms and all that. Idols to Stormriders to stay away and stuff. Blood worship directly enhances Mael's power, and hasn't been common. And we do know his power is on the rise.

As to the Malazans, they only didn't submit to it because Kellanved and Laseen were against it. Besides, he doesn't need the whole empire kneeling in worship, just a new priesthood. Blood sacrifice ain't that uncommon all across the tribal states, like in Dal Hon and where Smiles is from.

[Urizen]

Mappo, on 06 September 2009 - 11:23 AM, said:

You're forgetting the common people. Sailors, seafarers, etc. who want safe journeys. I think it happens in ROTCG that they sacrifice a cabin boy to Mael. Plus, Mallick has the Phantom Glove and is now the head of the greatest empire since the FE and Kallor. There's going to be a definite rise in Mael-worship.

I don't think it will be an increase in Mael worship in the Malazan Empire, perhaps even the opposite, given Mael and Mallicks final conversation in ROTCG (p.565) where Mael pretty much tells Mallick that they are done with eachother. Given Mallick's charming personality I can see Mallick instigating pogroms against the Empire's Mael-worshipers to weaken Mael and get back at him.

[Imperial Historian]

Mael was able to escape the influence of the jhistal due to a rise in his worship in malaz. Of all the elder gods (apart from the errant), Mael seems to be one of the few whose worship is still relatively widespread, with a priesthood (the jhistal mallick, and silgar karsa's slaver in HoC), and there are numerous mentions of his worship, so he is one of the more potent elders. From what we have seen, I'd say there is nothing to rule out him being an elder god, though personally I don't read him that way, old, but not elder.

For all those wondering who the she that gudd refers to as responding... it's pretty clear if you reread the passage that he is referring to his sword, he looks at it in terror as sorcery emanates from it and the ice forms... it seems that the sword responds to sorcerous threat resulting in gudd turning into his stormrider form, whether it is the sword causing this change in form, or gudd himself returning to his original form I don't know. Gudd's comments that the stormrider form is not comfortable may suggest he is not a stormrider himself.

From looking at a few passages, Gudd emerges on Jackuru after the destruction of an azath house and observes that it has changed, this seems to have occured after kallors empires destruction, as he notes draconus arrival on the continent whilst still in the Azath. Though the passage also suggests that he emerged in the aftermath of jackuru's destruction. I suspect Gudd will be mentioned by ICE a few more times to give us some backstory. He seems to have been a friend of Draconus who refers to him as friend and warns him off venturing into kallors empire, but the comment on how he will find draconus and one of them will die is curious... why kill a friend? It seems to involve some vows he has made. Anyway he's also greymanes friend, if he is in fact a stormrider he could be the route through which greymane attempted to negotiate the peace between koreli and stormriders. So it's still not at all clear what his origins are, I'm looking forward to finding out more

For those looking for passages 671, and 834 and onwards have the most interesting info.

Slightly offtopic, but regarding jaghut creations, such as the nacht... i loved the suggestion that the boles are possibly a jaghut creation designed to fight sorcery.

[Veilside]

Tiste Simeon, on 04 September 2009 - 11:09 AM, said:

Also, remember that even elder gods can get pwnt, as in Nightchill got crushed by Tayschrenn, while he was attacking Moons Spawn at the same time...

Nightchill had been cursed by Kallor though.

Imperial Historian, on 07 September 2009 - 12:13 AM, said:

Mael was able to escape the influence of the jhistal due to a rise in his worship in malaz. Of all the elder gods (apart from the errant), Mael seems to be one of the few whose worship is still relatively widespread, with a priesthood (the jhistal mallick, and silgar karsa's slaver in HoC), and there are numerous mentions of his worship, so he is one of the more potent elders. From what we have seen, I'd say there is nothing to rule out him being an elder god, though personally I don't read him that way, old, but not elder.

For all those wondering who the she that gudd refers to as responding... it's pretty clear if you reread the passage that he is referring to his sword, he looks at it in terror as sorcery emanates from it and the ice forms... it seems that the sword responds to sorcerous threat resulting in gudd turning into his stormrider form, whether it is the sword causing this change in form, or gudd himself returning to his original form I don't know. Gudd's comments that the stormrider form is not comfortable may suggest he is not a stormrider himself.

From looking at a few passages, Gudd emerges on Jackuru after the destruction of an azath house and observes that it has changed, this seems to have occured after kallors empires destruction, as he notes draconus arrival on the continent whilst still in the Azath. Though the passage also suggests that he emerged in the aftermath of jackuru's destruction. I suspect Gudd will be mentioned by ICE a few more times to give us some backstory. He seems to have been a friend of Draconus who refers to him as friend and warns him off venturing into kallors empire, but the comment on how he will find draconus and one of them will die is curious... why kill a friend? It seems to involve some vows he has made. Anyway he's also greymanes friend, if he is in fact a stormrider he could be the route through which greymane attempted to negotiate the peace between koreli and stormriders. So it's still not at all clear what his origins are, I'm looking forward to finding out more

For those looking for passages 671, and 834 and onwards have the most interesting info.

Slightly offtopic, but regarding jaghut creations, such as the nacht... i loved the suggestion that the boles are possibly a jaghut creation designed to fight sorcery.

Also, don't forget the Blue Moranth, who while possibly worshipping Neruse rather than Mael, they had invested those porcelain cusser's in TtH with elder magic, which would also point to Mael.

[Bear]

Ok, crazy whacky idea of the day.

- QB thinks he might have to fight Drac
- RG thinks he might have to fight Drac
- QB has a secret that only a few, powerful can see through

so...perhaps RG *is* QB (and vice versa, of course).

If QB can have 12 souls (at least), maybe he has 2 bodies.

That is why RG jumped into the fray so quickly at the end. To save the "primary" and give QB time to drop his acorns.