[ISTN4249]

Sinisdar Toste, on Aug 31 2009, 06:42 AM, said:

the most intriguing thing is how he says "she answers - as she has never answered before. gods below, spawn of the azath -" just before the shit goes through the fan and is obliterated into tiny fragments

i mentioned Olar Ethil above. here is my reasoning now that i have found it. the timeline of events is a bit up in the air in DOD between differing POVS.

but there is this on pg 527

Quote

Kilmandaros was visibly shaking with her fury. "It was her," she hissed. "Last night. That singing - she awakened the ancient power! Olar Ethil!"
Sechul Lath could see sudden worry on the Errant's face. Things were spriralling out of his control.

[Urizen]

ISTN4249, on Sep 1 2009, 11:56 PM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on Aug 31 2009, 06:42 AM, said:

the most intriguing thing is how he says "she answers - as she has never answered before. gods below, spawn of the azath -" just before the shit goes through the fan and is obliterated into tiny fragments

i mentioned Olar Ethil above. here is my reasoning now that i have found it. the timeline of events is a bit up in the air in DOD between differing POVS.

but there is this on pg 527

Quote

Kilmandaros was visibly shaking with her fury. "It was her," she hissed. "Last night. That singing - she awakened the ancient power! Olar Ethil!"
Sechul Lath could see sudden worry on the Errant's face. Things were spriralling out of his control.

Didn't that passage refer to Olar Ethil resurecting Tool? When Tool's shattered bones reasemble a woman is heard singing in the background(presumably Olar)

[MTS]

Urizen, on Sep 2 2009, 04:12 AM, said:

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on Sep 1 2009, 01:49 PM, said:

Ardata has an empire on Jacurucku, I believe.

Spoiler

Skinner and the rest of his bitch crew - the Isturé - were in her service for about forty years. Kind of odd an Elder Goddess has an empire, but anyway.

If it is her it raises some questions over where her allegiance lies, and what her ultimate goals are. She has ties to Skinner, who is now the King in Chains, she has marked Mappo, and now she might be mixed up with Ruthan Gudd. She could be hedging her bets, recruiting people from different sides to ensure she gets something out of what's coming.

Oh. and we've never seen Assail, I'm fairly sure. It is still a complete and utter mystery.

I'm not convinced that Ardata is in cahoots with

Spoiler

Skinner. ROTCG actually states that the CG's with Skinner rule in the name of Ardata, not that she actually is around. It could be that they has a Mallick Rel/Mael kind of "relationship". .

Dunno how you reconcile the armour he wears then, if she ain't around - the armour that she is said to have personally given Skinner. But anyway, this thread isn't really about Ardata.

I'm not convinced he's an EG, but it is clear he is at least a fairly powerful Ascendant. I wonder if he actually is dead though...that whole bit is completely pointless if nothing eventuates from it.

[ISTN4249]

Urizen, on Sep 2 2009, 03:15 AM, said:

ISTN4249, on Sep 1 2009, 11:56 PM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on Aug 31 2009, 06:42 AM, said:

the most intriguing thing is how he says "she answers - as she has never answered before. gods below, spawn of the azath -" just before the shit goes through the fan and is obliterated into tiny fragments

i mentioned Olar Ethil above. here is my reasoning now that i have found it. the timeline of events is a bit up in the air in DOD between differing POVS.

but there is this on pg 527

Quote

Kilmandaros was visibly shaking with her fury. "It was her," she hissed. "Last night. That singing - she awakened the ancient power! Olar Ethil!"
Sechul Lath could see sudden worry on the Errant's face. Things were spriralling out of his control.

Didn't that passage refer to Olar Ethil resurecting Tool? When Tool's shattered bones reasemble a woman is heard singing in the background(presumably Olar)

oooh. didnt remember that. damn book needs to be reread like 3 times for things to sink together

[Urizen]

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on Sep 2 2009, 03:29 PM, said:

Urizen, on Sep 2 2009, 04:12 AM, said:

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on Sep 1 2009, 01:49 PM, said:

Ardata has an empire on Jacurucku, I believe.

Spoiler

Skinner and the rest of his bitch crew - the Isturé - were in her service for about forty years. Kind of odd an Elder Goddess has an empire, but anyway.

If it is her it raises some questions over where her allegiance lies, and what her ultimate goals are. She has ties to Skinner, who is now the King in Chains, she has marked Mappo, and now she might be mixed up with Ruthan Gudd. She could be hedging her bets, recruiting people from different sides to ensure she gets something out of what's coming.

Oh. and we've never seen Assail, I'm fairly sure. It is still a complete and utter mystery.

I'm not convinced that Ardata is in cahoots with

Spoiler

Skinner. ROTCG actually states that the CG's with Skinner rule in the name of Ardata, not that she actually is around. It could be that they has a Mallick Rel/Mael kind of "relationship". .

Dunno how you reconcile the armour he wears then, if she ain't around - the armour that she is said to have personally given Skinner. But anyway, this thread isn't really about Ardata.

I'm not convinced he's an EG, but it is clear he is at least a fairly powerful Ascendant. I wonder if he actually is dead though...that whole bit is completely pointless if nothing eventuates from it.

Maybe Skinner looted a tomb, found it in an attic or perhaps he stole it from Jacurucku's world famous Ardata museum..Skinner is completely unrealiable with anything he says.

Not that it really helps but In TBH, Gudd says he's from the island of Strike.
Perhaps I've posted this before but given that Gudd appearently could take a raincheck on duel to the death with Draconus with no hard feelings on either side (and Draconus pre-Dragnipur was a Bastard). This makes me believe Gudd is one of three things. The only beings I expect Draconus would give some leeway and respect. 1) a fellow Elder God 2) a loyal(to Draconus) Tiste Andi from their time in Kharkanas(Sp?) or 3) a son of Draconus.

Gudd seem to think that he be a goner when charged the Na'ruhk and they have shown themselves to be capable killers who don't leave things half-done. I hope he survived though.
The point might come when Gudd's EG/Ascendant buddies gets sad and miffed about his death and goes on a rampage against the Na'ruhk.

[Aptorian]

I may have missed it, but does anyone have a quote from Gudd talking about taking a duel with Draconus?

Because I just remember it as Gudd wanting to kill Draconus if he could. That doesn't mean he is in Draconus league or that he is an Elder God. It just means the two crossed paths and Draconus was mean to him.

I think Gudd is just a First Empire Era human ascendant. I'm not even sure he's an ascendant at that.

[Urizen]

Aptorian, on Sep 2 2009, 07:00 PM, said:

I may have missed it, but does anyone have a quote from Gudd talking about taking a duel with Draconus?

Because I just remember it as Gudd wanting to kill Draconus if he could. That doesn't mean he is in Draconus league or that he is an Elder God. It just means the two crossed paths and Draconus was mean to him.

I think Gudd is just a First Empire Era human ascendant. I'm not even sure he's an ascendant at that.

Here it is..

Quote

'It's better this way, Draconus'
'This is Kallor's empire, friend. Will you not reconsider?
Reconsider. Yes theres that. 'The shore seems welcoming enough. If I mind my own business...'
He'd smiled at that.
And I simled back.
Draconus returned to that continent- I felt his footfalls, there inside my seemingly eternal prison. He returned to see for himself the maddness of Kallor.
You were right, Draconus. I should have minded my own business. For once.
Can you hear me now? Draconus? Are you listening?
I have reconsidered. At long last. Ad so Igive you this. Find me, and one of us will die.

I read this as Draconus wanting a fight but Gudd passes on the "offer" because he wants to spend time on Jacarucku dong his own thing.

[ISTN4249]

Urizen, on Sep 2 2009, 02:53 PM, said:

Aptorian, on Sep 2 2009, 07:00 PM, said:

I may have missed it, but does anyone have a quote from Gudd talking about taking a duel with Draconus?

Because I just remember it as Gudd wanting to kill Draconus if he could. That doesn't mean he is in Draconus league or that he is an Elder God. It just means the two crossed paths and Draconus was mean to him.

I think Gudd is just a First Empire Era human ascendant. I'm not even sure he's an ascendant at that.

Here it is..

Quote

'It's better this way, Draconus'
'This is Kallor's empire, friend. Will you not reconsider?
Reconsider. Yes theres that. 'The shore seems welcoming enough. If I mind my own business...'
He'd smiled at that.
And I simled back.
Draconus returned to that continent- I felt his footfalls, there inside my seemingly eternal prison. He returned to see for himself the maddness of Kallor.
You were right, Draconus. I should have minded my own business. For once.
Can you hear me now? Draconus? Are you listening?
I have reconsidered. At long last. Ad so Igive you this. Find me, and one of us will die.

I read this as Draconus wanting a fight but Gudd passes on the "offer" because he wants to spend time on Jacarucku dong his own thing.

I read it as Draconus wanting to get Rudd in on cursing Kallor w/ Sister of Cold Nights and Krul

[Aptorian]

Right, that's how I remember that. None of that suggests that Gudd is a god or that he is Draconus equal. It merely means that Rudd thinks he might be able to take Draconus in a sword fight. If nothing else, just to break the monotony of his life in the army.

Saying Rudd is Draconus equal just because he might be able to stand toe to toe with him, is like saying Trull is as powerfull as Icarium or Ruin. Which he wasn't.

[Urizen]

Aptorian, on Sep 2 2009, 08:42 PM, said:

Right, that's how I remember that. None of that suggests that Gudd is a god or that he is Draconus equal. It merely means that Rudd thinks he might be able to take Draconus in a sword fight. If nothing else, just to break the monotony of his life in the army.

Saying Rudd is Draconus equal just because he might be able to stand toe to toe with him, is like saying Trull is as powerfull as Icarium or Ruin. Which he wasn't.

I never felt Gudd was Draconus equal. DoD if anything, makes Draconus out to be the baddest MOF around, (excepting Rake of course)

[Tiste Simeon]

I thought Rudd was GF at first, but reading this now makes me question that... I'm even wondering if he is someone we have heard of before? I mean he could just be a massively powerful old guy who died by the lightning. That isn't perhaps SE's style but it's possible...

[Sinisdar Toste]

Gudd is oooold. just before that passage with draconus, gudd recalls climbing out of a dying azath. now i assume the azath died cuz kaminsod was coming down in pieces, but even so, Gudd is not just some first hero from dessimbelackis empire

[Skywalker]

In the RotCG prologue, Osserc kills an Azath. Then is discovered by a "child of the earth" and runs off before Draconus gets there.

Honestly, when Gudd mentioned the dying Azath, I did a double take and for a moment figured Gudd was the "child of the earth". But then the Stormrider thing threw me off completely.

Still, Ruthan Gudd could well be that person (or one like him).

The other thing the RoTCG prologue tells us is that an Azath can die (and cataclysmically) without the event necessarily requiring Kaminsod coming down or anything on that level. We also know Icarium killed an Azath and god his chaos memory sickness that way...

[Aptorian]

I think an Elder God in his prime getting knocked the fuck down and severely wounded and all his buddies, probably nearly as powerful as the EG getting vaporised, in the process of killing an Azath, qualifies as a cataclysmic event. A hell of a lot of power was dispensed in the destruction of that Azath.

[HoosierDaddy]

The thing that struck me in all of this was, "This is Kallor's Empire, friend." As though the HFE was different to Draconus for some reason. Obviously, Rudd was at least near ascendent level when going into the ground, and having been brought back, seemingly hundreds of thousands of years ago, makes him almost definitely an ascendent. The question becomes, is he an ascendant or a god?

He possesses the armor of a Stormrider, but that is obviously from his time spent on the Stormwall. EG's can change their appearance at will, as we've seen, but what EG's are missing other than Toasty?

TA - MD
TL - FL
TE - Someone other than Scabandari, Edgewalker would make sense here....
TI - OL
FA - Knuckles/Kily
H - Errastas
Jaghut - Hood? Icarium? Gothos? (Hood obviously took over the Realm of Dead after that war, the last pages seemingly assure that sentiment. "What was that war against? HAHAHAHAHA).)
KCCM - Matrons 'n dragons
KCNR - ????
TTT - ????
Evolution/Life - Eres'al?
Deep Blue Sea and surrouding environs - Mael

So damned confusing.

[Aptorian]

Oh, god damn it. He is NOT an EG in the class of the big ones.

If he was he would have had a personal warren and he would have disappeared the whole Nahruk army. He would have blown them to oily mist, teleported them to the moon, made them cross eyed or I don't know what, even if he was so dimished that he couldn't crush an entire army he would have been desperate enough to call on someone. He didn't do any of the things above. He doesn't have any major power.

I think he's something in the lines of a FE ascendant. Not a strong ascendant in any regard, just strong and immortal.

[HoosierDaddy]

So certain, Apt. Did you notice the, "Is" in that statement? Or do you just want to overreact to stuff to feel better? Or better yet, do you have proof other than denial? You know as much as us about Ruthan Guud, so quit pretending you know more.

He could be Grizzin Farl just as much as he could be a random fucking First Hero. Hell, maybe he's the ceator of the Stormrider mess, or perhaps, he's Dessimbelackis. Some of these are more likely than others, but SE also said there were no Hounds of Light at one point, so I think you should recognize that, just maybe, you could be wrong?

[Aptorian]

I want to overreact to stuff to feel better. It is what I do.

Do you think that an EG, one in the league of the other EGs we know of, would have thought charging straight into the KCNR was his first and best option?

[HoosierDaddy]

Aptorian, on Sep 4 2009, 03:35 AM, said:

I want to overreact to stuff to feel better. It is what I do.

Do you think that an EG, one in the league of the other EGs we know of, would have thought charging straight into the KCNR was his first and best option?

I'm thinking Elder Gods, for the most part, have shown themselves to be pretty damned idiotic up to this point. However, I don't think they are stupid per se, and you have an actual point. If Grizzin Farl is incorporeal like some think he is, then he has obviously lost a large margin of his power. There are lots of other options. I think it's mad to foreclose options so quickly after having read the book once. I think a re-read is going to provide massive amounts of information, seeing as how this is the penultimate book in the series.

[MTS]

I personally think he's your "average" Ascendant. Nothing really all that powerful, but still fairly potent. Apt makes some good points. Many EG just go smashy-smash when they are faced with annoying mortals - Draconus, the Errant and Killy for instance.

But don't worry guys, I'm on a re-read right now. Expect imminent illumination, as I dazzle you with my ineffable, epiphanous wisdom.

Commence holding your breath.