[Veilside]

I always just assumed it was the daughter of some Talon character. Which makes sense in the context of the girl being surprised anyone recognises the style, and it being passed down from her father.

[togepreee]

Jurble, on 18 July 2010 - 04:49 AM, said:

HiddenOne, on 17 July 2010 - 02:15 PM, said:

Also, Apsalar would not have a faceoff w/ Tatterd, he would simply be surprised to find himself dead on the ground as she walked calmly away, whistling a tune.

You're underestimating Topper and overestimating Apsalar. Cotillion the God could take Topper, sure. But Dancer, the mortal assassin, who's the closest in skill to Apsalar? He was the best of the best, but Topper is a Clawmaster, and he's not a Pearl or a Possum. He's a real-deal Clawmaster. Surly's 2nd-in-command. Apsalar would be match against Topper. And if she didn't realize she were fighting Topper, and he were to shoot her with KG laser beams... The man has single-handedly, for possibly a year or more (the timeline would get even worse what with how time moves in a Warren) prevent Mallick Rel's Claw from using the Imperial Warren.

in RotCG, cowl taunts topper by saying that he would always be in dancer's shadow. also, if topper didn't realize he was fighting apsalar, he'd fall victim to the shadow dance, so that argument is moot. actually, even if topper did realize he was fighting apsalar, i still think he'd fall to the shadow dance. if she could stop the hounds in their tracks without them getting a shot off, i'm pretty sure she could take topper with the same technique.

[Ammanas]

Don't forget--Shadowthrone told Apsalar 1) she was released from service to Shadow and 2) he told her he and Cot kept their word. There was no reason for her to be there, let alone to be keeping surveillance on Topper.

Random opinions on RoTCG and predicts for TCG.

Random RoTCG thought--- the characterization of Cowl was a huge disappointment for me. He's been an uber-badass since manhandling Serrat in GoTM and he just completely goes insane while duelling Topper?? Standing around so that the Azath can take him seems totally ridiculous to me. I don't remember which Azath it was but I hope Kalam wakes up and breaks his neck or something.

The Crippled God will attempt to use Skinner's Avowed to kill Karsa.
Karsa, assuming he heeds Picker's message and remains in Darujhistan, will encounter Kallor and end his fucked up existence.
We will find out whether the entire Liosan population consists of the "we got our ass kicked..again" quartet.
Whether Tays survived supposed entry into the rent.
Will Paran have a showdown with the Errant or will the Errant latch onto the CG for protection?
Will ST and COT come out on top, in the end?
Will Mallick Rel turn to the CG, now that he can no longer control Mael?

This post has been edited by Ammanas: 23 July 2010 - 12:19 AM

[SpectreofEschaton]

Jurble, on 18 July 2010 - 04:49 AM, said:

HiddenOne, on 17 July 2010 - 02:15 PM, said:

Also, Apsalar would not have a faceoff w/ Tatterd, he would simply be surprised to find himself dead on the ground as she walked calmly away, whistling a tune.

You're underestimating Topper and overestimating Apsalar. Cotillion the God could take Topper, sure. But Dancer, the mortal assassin, who's the closest in skill to Apsalar? He was the best of the best, but Topper is a Clawmaster, and he's not a Pearl or a Possum. He's a real-deal Clawmaster. Surly's 2nd-in-command. Apsalar would be match against Topper. And if she didn't realize she were fighting Topper, and he were to shoot her with KG laser beams... The man has single-handedly, for possibly a year or more (the timeline would get even worse what with how time moves in a Warren) prevent Mallick Rel's Claw from using the Imperial Warren.

In NoK, mortal Dancer held off...what was it? Laseen, Topper, and the two best Hands, and killed all the other Claw, all the while protecting a magically-crippled Kellanved and being unable to Shadow Dance. Only Laseen and Topper came out of that room alive.

My memory may be a little off, but I'm pretty sure Dancer was in a whole different league than Topper is. Topper would have even had access to his Warren, since it's Elder.

[Abyss]

SpectreofEschaton, on 23 July 2010 - 01:31 AM, said:

In NoK, mortal Dancer held off...what was it? Laseen, Topper, and the two best Hands, and killed all the other Claw, all the while protecting a magically-crippled Kellanved and being unable to Shadow Dance. Only Laseen and Topper came out of that room alive.

My memory may be a little off, but I'm pretty sure Dancer was in a whole different league than Topper is. Topper would have even had access to his Warren, since it's Elder.

I could be wrong but wasn't Possum there too?

And Ash and his Bridgeburner rejects were involved too.

But that aside yeah, Dancer was at a whole other level and that's what drives Topper and Cowl so hard to prove themselves the best (Topper willing to suffer in the IW for so long for a shot at Cowl, Cowl to start the his own assassin mage group of Veils and to Azath up rather than let Topper beat him...). They 'know' they will never match pre-ascension Dancer or ever have another chance to test themselves against him.

Laseen, otoh, isn't pressed to be the best. She just wanted to be in charge.

As an aside, at the beginning of RCG, Possum muses on how Laseen was once his underling.

[Harvester]

Abyss, on 23 July 2010 - 01:32 PM, said:

As an aside, at the beginning of RCG, Possum muses on how Laseen was once his underling.

Is he talking about himself or Kel? I mean, Laseen was there from the start, a member of the Deadhouse crew, i.e. long lived, special and such.

Why would she have been Possum's underling? Makes no sense, makes no sense, makes no sense...

I demand sense!

[Abyss]

Harvester, on 23 July 2010 - 04:14 PM, said:

...Why would she have been Possum's underling? Makes no sense, makes no sense, makes no sense...

I demand sense!

Remember that Dancer initially formed the Talon and Surly was one of them. She rose in the ranks and eventually formed and commanded the Claw. Presumably she wasn't a master assassin back when she was a barmaid.

[Harvester]

Then there is only one explanation - Possum's a former, high ranking member of the Talon. But... seriously?

[Gatekeeper]

Abyss, yeah, I caught that on the read. I was rather surprised, and then I got to wondering about how old EVERYONE seems to be...does everyone have a century candle or something?

[Kanese S's]

I just finished this book myself.

I was rather stunned at how incredibly sad I felt at Laseen's death, even though I thought it was likely going to happen at some point in this book.

Just, I read it, and read it again to make sure I hadn't misread. And then just looked up staring, unaccountably grief-stricken at the death of Laseen. The one I'd spent so much time hating, or at best feeling ambivalent about. Why was I so monumentally sad? I didn't know, I just was.

This post has been edited by Kanese S's: 09 July 2011 - 05:03 AM

[Kanese S's]

Gatekeeper, on 31 May 2011 - 04:41 PM, said:

Abyss, yeah, I caught that on the read. I was rather surprised, and then I got to wondering about how old EVERYONE seems to be...does everyone have a century candle or something?

It's good to be high in the imperial hierarchy.

[tiam]

Abyss, on 23 July 2010 - 04:38 PM, said:

Harvester, on 23 July 2010 - 04:14 PM, said:

...Why would she have been Possum's underling? Makes no sense, makes no sense, makes no sense...

I demand sense!

Remember that Dancer initially formed the Talon and Surly was one of them. She rose in the ranks and eventually formed and commanded the Claw. Presumably she wasn't a master assassin back when she was a barmaid.

This doesnt sounds right at all. They both formed their own organisation and presumably were heads of that organisation.

We need a MTS quote fu is what we need.

Veilside- Teres alot of unanswered questions in ICE work. While ive got no problem waiting a few books for the answer and can understand him forming his own longterm plotline that seems to be based around the QOD to an extent (even in NOK which ive just reread) these books are stand alone novels at the end of the day. SW is the worst one for this but ROTCG example youve just give is another. We can give a presumption of events but thats it and these things are never going to be revisited as ICE jumps continents every book. Erikson does the same but they form there own arc and lead on to each other.

This post has been edited by tiam: 10 July 2011 - 12:08 PM

[Kanubis]

Gatekeeper, on 31 May 2011 - 04:41 PM, said:

Abyss, yeah, I caught that on the read. I was rather surprised, and then I got to wondering about how old EVERYONE seems to be...does everyone have a century candle or something?

Denul healing can prolong life, so the important folk in the Empire are pretty much sorted. Of course, the really pro people hang out in Azath houses to achieve much longevity.

[Abyss]

tiam, on 10 July 2011 - 12:04 PM, said:

Abyss, on 23 July 2010 - 04:38 PM, said:

...
Remember that Dancer initially formed the Talon and Surly was one of them. She rose in the ranks and eventually formed and commanded the Claw. Presumably she wasn't a master assassin back when she was a barmaid.

This doesnt sounds right at all. They both formed their own organisation and presumably were heads of that organisation.

We need a MTS quote fu is what we need....

No quote fu handy but i'm pretty sure NoK, DG, MoI and HoC establish that Surly was originally Talon until the Claw were spun off under her command.

Kanubis, on 12 July 2011 - 04:20 PM, said:

Denul healing can prolong life, so the important folk in the Empire are pretty much sorted. Of course, the really pro people hang out in Azath houses to achieve much longevity.

Yep.

[Feathersmith]

Kanese S, on 09 July 2011 - 04:57 AM, said:

I just finished this book myself.

I was rather stunned at how incredibly sad I felt at Laseen's death, even though I thought it was likely going to happen at some point in this book.

Just, I read it, and read it again to make sure I hadn't misread. And then just looked up staring, unaccountably grief-stricken at the death of Laseen. The one I'd spent so much time hating, or at best feeling ambivalent about. Why was I so monumentally sad? I didn't know, I just was.

I also just finished it, and I -knew- it was going to happen (because I finished DoD and TCG earlier this year plus read lots of spoilers in the forums), and I was still shocked and saddened by it. Even though she'd done plenty of horrible things as Empress. It happened so late in the book that I was beginning to think I'd misunderstood some of spoilers/other info about her demise.

I'm glad we at least got to see her in action, first. I thought it was really cool when we got some clues earlier on that she was taking out Avowed (well, temporarily, anyway), without weapons.

[Abyss]

Feathersmith, on 20 July 2011 - 06:06 PM, said:

Kanese S, on 09 July 2011 - 04:57 AM, said:

I just finished this book myself.

I was rather stunned at how incredibly sad I felt at Laseen's death, ...

I also just finished it, and I -knew- it was going to happen (because I finished DoD and TCG earlier this year plus read lots of spoilers in the forums), and I was still shocked and saddened by it. ...

So would you say having already read DoD and TCG lessened your enjoyment of RCG?

[Feathersmith]

Abyss, on 20 July 2011 - 07:47 PM, said:

Feathersmith, on 20 July 2011 - 06:06 PM, said:

Kanese S, on 09 July 2011 - 04:57 AM, said:

I just finished this book myself.

I was rather stunned at how incredibly sad I felt at Laseen's death, ...

I also just finished it, and I -knew- it was going to happen (because I finished DoD and TCG earlier this year plus read lots of spoilers in the forums), and I was still shocked and saddened by it. ...

So would you say having already read DoD and TCG lessened your enjoyment of RCG?

No, though it's hard to judge, since I can't know what it would be like to read them in proper chronological order. I enjoyed the hell out of DoD and TCG, and didn't feel like I was really missing anything major without having read RotCG or Stonewielder, though I did realize there were some references in those books to things from RotCG/SW that I was not fully understanding.

It's also hard to say how much I enjoyed RotCG, because ohmygod the writing was so very painful, please tell me ICE got himself a good editor for Stonewielder! and I found that distracting. And I found too many of the characters were 2 dimensional and hard to distinguish from others, so combining that with the HOW MANY?? different plot lines, and I found it was harder to follow than any other Malazan book, up until all the armies started showing up in the same place. I thought the last 100-200 pages significantly better than the rest of the book.

I certainly enjoyed seeing more of the world, especially places and characters we've only seen brief mentions of before (and I loved seeing more of Cartheron Crust and his Ragstopper), and I am having a hard time imagining how reading TtH, DoD, and TCG before RotCG could spoil it. Okay, so I knew a lot more about Traveller, but I think that helped me actually care about his role in the book. I guess Laseen's death would have been more of a shock if I hadn't known it was coming, but it still had a surprising impact.

Er, actually, I think reading RotCG after the other novels was a win, in terms of understanding what was going on (sort of) and caring about it. I'm hoping it'll hold together better on a reread, but I'm wincing at struggling through the clumsy prose and LOUSY editing again.

I'll probably break up my reread of TCG with a (first) read of Stonewielder, now that I've found a local shop that carries it.

[tiam]

Abyss, on 12 July 2011 - 04:58 PM, said:

tiam, on 10 July 2011 - 12:04 PM, said:

Abyss, on 23 July 2010 - 04:38 PM, said:

...
Remember that Dancer initially formed the Talon and Surly was one of them. She rose in the ranks and eventually formed and commanded the Claw. Presumably she wasn't a master assassin back when she was a barmaid.

This doesnt sounds right at all. They both formed their own organisation and presumably were heads of that organisation.

We need a MTS quote fu is what we need....

No quote fu handy but i'm pretty sure NoK, DG, MoI and HoC establish that Surly was originally Talon until the Claw were spun off under her command.

Kanubis, on 12 July 2011 - 04:20 PM, said:

Denul healing can prolong life, so the important folk in the Empire are pretty much sorted. Of course, the really pro people hang out in Azath houses to achieve much longevity.

Yep.

Ive reread NOK, ROTCG,SW,recently and am near the end of DG atm and I dont remember any mention of Surly being subservient to Possum.

As for the age thing, Denul rituals are reasonably common. In ROTCG Laseen is surprised that Braven Tooth is still alive and he sunk his back pay into one. While we have no idea of Claw payment structure its safe to assume they get paid more tha Braven Tooth and Possum is a potential Clawmaster so is wealthy.

[Abyss]

tiam, on 29 July 2011 - 12:33 PM, said:

...
Ive reread NOK, ROTCG,SW,recently and am near the end of DG atm and I dont remember any mention of Surly being subservient to Possum...

Doesn't Possum inner monologue about it at the beginning while he is stalking someone in the crowd? Before Hood shows up in a skull.

[MTS]

Quote

Her gaze snapped to him sidelong. Possum refused to acknowledge the attention. Let her imagine what she may. Had she not been his right hand? Was he now not hers? Let her wonder, and consider.

I can't remember Surly being a Talon originally, although it makes sense. I remember a while back someone speculated she may have been in the military because in NOK it's said she has a similar haircut to that worn by females in the ranks.