[maro]

Abyss, on 23 April 2010 - 02:37 PM, said:

maro, on 23 April 2010 - 06:30 AM, said:

Ardata - I can't remember which book she's in and the relationship with Kallor.

I vaguely recall she's first ref'd in MoI, but if not there, somewhere else it's established that she had a kingdon and paid tribute to keep Kallor off her case. We learn a bit more of her in later books.

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Sorrow -= My copy is the latest paperback, I can't find reference to Sorrow in the cast list.

Do you mean Sorrow or Storo?

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Moss - any ideas who he is/what he is - Talon or Claw?

Implication is Talon, since he doesn't work for Laseen at least initially.

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Lasseen - Was it me or did it switch her portrayal to a sad, more sympathetic character. At some points, she was very even-handed, similar to her handling of Dujek

Neither sad nor sympathetic so much as more developped than in previous books. I thought what ICE accomplished with Laseen was one of the best parts of the book.

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Mael - it's hard reading him as the power source for Mallick after Reapers Gale. Weird.

Agreed but the book makes it pretty clear he doesn't like being forced to help Jhistal worshippers - it's one of those worshippers influence the gods things.

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Topper - When does he become Tatterdemalion?

His absence is first noted in TB, so presumably by then Laseen has already sent him into the IW to be in place against Cowl when it goes down in RCG.

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Greymane - Fuck yeah!

Word.

I love Greymane getting pwned by Skinner and then wanting to go again. He will be epic in Stoneweilder.

[Fist Gamet]

I have searched through a few threads and had a bit of a re-read and I still can't work out who killed Ullen! I can't help but think that it was just one of the Avowed assassins finally succeeding in hitting Ullen's command.

Anyone?

[worry]

My only beef with this book was that there were so many Old Guard here with so much collective knowledge of empire history, and it wasn't capitalized on much. It would have been nice to hear a few old war stories, and I think that's a point where NoK beats this one, as Temper's flashbacks are so interesting. I guess I mentioned the same feeling regarding Ereko too, just in terms of lost opportunities to delve. Not necessarily answers to big mysteries, but rooting the Old Guard somehow beyond their reputations and current mind states. This isn't a complaint about the jumping POVs, but the book could have stood to be 50-100 pages longer to just dwell with some of these characters more.

[Harvester]

Fist Gamet, on 03 May 2010 - 08:13 AM, said:

I have searched through a few threads and had a bit of a re-read and I still can't work out who killed Ullen! I can't help but think that it was just one of the Avowed assassins finally succeeding in hitting Ullen's command.

Anyone?

Almost certainly Isha - the white haired, female Veil.


I liked this book, but my problem is that too many infamous characters did absolutely nothing.

[Abyss]

The point of the Old Guard was that they were old. Dated. In essence old men trying almost blindly to reclaim roles and glory that were no longer as significant, and probably feeling somwhat guilty that they had left the Empire back when their opposition might have truly mattered.

I thought we got enough of them to get the sense that they were significant - Toc the Elder seizing control of a troop, Ameron plotting to use Ghelel, etc - without overdoing it. I don't think Laseen's ultimate triumph over them, or little things like Storro's squad standing against them, would have worked as well if ICE had spent more time establishing how over-the-top-awesome they were supposed to be.

[Harvester]

Sure they were old, but Toc was a cavalry legend, he should have gone Leoman of the Flails on the empire's army, I think someone already mentioned this before.
I am not saying that I didn't like them at all, they just seemed a little incompetent to me.

[Illuyankas]

Abyss, on 05 May 2010 - 02:32 PM, said:

The point of the Old Guard was that they were old. Dated. In essence old men trying almost blindly to reclaim roles and glory that were no longer as significant, and probably feeling somwhat guilty that they had left the Empire back when their opposition might have truly mattered.

I thought we got enough of them to get the sense that they were significant - Toc the Elder seizing control of a troop, Ameron plotting to use Ghelel, etc - without overdoing it. I don't think Laseen's ultimate triumph over them, or little things like Storro's squad standing against them, would have worked as well if ICE had spent more time establishing how over-the-top-awesome they were supposed to be.

Without overdoing it? He underdid it! He underdid it so hard they might as well have not been there for all they did! I get their skills had degraded after being out of the loop for so long but they were ridiculously ineffectual to the point where you don't know how they got their reputations in the first place.

[worry]

Abyss, on 05 May 2010 - 02:32 PM, said:

The point of the Old Guard was that they were old. Dated. In essence old men trying almost blindly to reclaim roles and glory that were no longer as significant, and probably feeling somwhat guilty that they had left the Empire back when their opposition might have truly mattered.

I thought we got enough of them to get the sense that they were significant - Toc the Elder seizing control of a troop, Ameron plotting to use Ghelel, etc - without overdoing it. I don't think Laseen's ultimate triumph over them, or little things like Storro's squad standing against them, would have worked as well if ICE had spent more time establishing how over-the-top-awesome they were supposed to be.

I getcha. I didn't have a problem with their losses, or their fading legends, and I think your conclusion is pretty spot on in terms of their current mindsets. I just wish more time was spent with them talking or thinking about the old days. Personal moments, not necessarily plot-defining or plot-moving moments. I mean, there's only so much time we're gonna get with these guys. I think Toc the Elder was done the best in this regard, but even Ullen could have dropped a little more history or reflection on us than he did for the other big names. Even as they're moving in the end to fight Ryllanderas we do get to see how awesome they are, but we don't get to witness their camaraderie along the way, know what I mean? I don't wanna use the term "fan service" here, but I did want a little more than ICE gave us with the Old Guard (and to a lesser extent, Ereko).

[amphibian]

Illuyankas, on 05 May 2010 - 04:23 PM, said:

Without overdoing it? He underdid it! He underdid it so hard they might as well have not been there for all they did! I get their skills had degraded after being out of the loop for so long but they were ridiculously ineffectual to the point where you don't know how they got their reputations in the first place.

Once again, the angry chicken is correct.

[Ulrik]

Im doing reread now (and its pretty hard) aaaand.

1) Kyle is really sucker. His mind blow "oh, we went to kill someone...oh, what if it is our great holyfuckshitness ancestor!...oh, big bad boy, who made our plains into desert and I think you are blessed ancestor I never saw and never did anything useful for us, beware!...oh my god, they killed you!...I will have my revenge you bad guardsman who saved my live at least three times!" is really, really annoying.

2) Laseen is still bitch. Her POV really cant change anything. I mean, if somone tries to justify her steps, its bloody evil ( ). We saw brutal executions, unnecesary murders, adoring of wrongdoers, betrayal of loyalists... and I should be in awe that she is trying to get empire together with hand slipping with blood and betrayal? Nope, she is still bitch and bitch, that killed herself by stupid decisions and growing tyranny.

It looks like somone draw Stalin´s POV and we all just sit on asses and say "hey, he wasnt bad guy, he just was in difficult situation, I like him now! And he even killed most of generals by himself. I love him!"

Fuckin tyrant is still fucking tyrant, no matter excuses he use.

Phew, i got a little bit angry...probably because I read and read...and still cant find anything that justifies those crimes, or justifies opinion "Laseen in RtCG got better face". She doesnt.

[Sheve]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 12 April 2010 - 12:17 AM, said:

haroos, on 11 April 2010 - 08:25 PM, said:

spoilers and such :
i liked the emphasis on dancer's prowess, which made me remember the part where he talks to dassem and reminds him of how he sparred with him while he (dancer was drunk).
dancer remembered it as a fun memory, but dassem was serious and said he tried to kill him ...
exactly how good is dancer then ?
then is he second only to draconus and rake ?

Where is this part in the book? I don't remember it and I wanna look it up.

That was Urko/Keeper(or what he called himself)
When Apsalar comes to visit him and he makes her drink the tea that numbs the tongue.

This post has been edited by Sheve: 06 May 2010 - 09:24 AM

[D'rek]

Abyss, on 23 April 2010 - 02:37 PM, said:

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Moss - any ideas who he is/what he is - Talon or Claw?

Implication is Talon, since he doesn't work for Laseen at least initially.

Or neither - could be a good assassin hired privately by Laseen and neither Talon nor Claw. But I don't know where you get the idea he's not hired by Laseen initially - is not his first revealing of this when he's standing over Toc the Elder as he dies? From his debut (riding towards the garrison keep in Seti lands) to there he never had a chance to interact with Laseen so he must have been hired prior to that (and hence the new Fist of the Seti area being disconcerted at a new, over-competent Captain he'd never heard of being assigned to him out of the blue).

Illuyankas, on 05 May 2010 - 04:23 PM, said:

Abyss, on 05 May 2010 - 02:32 PM, said:

The point of the Old Guard was that they were old. Dated. In essence old men trying almost blindly to reclaim roles and glory that were no longer as significant, and probably feeling somwhat guilty that they had left the Empire back when their opposition might have truly mattered.

I thought we got enough of them to get the sense that they were significant - Toc the Elder seizing control of a troop, Ameron plotting to use Ghelel, etc - without overdoing it. I don't think Laseen's ultimate triumph over them, or little things like Storro's squad standing against them, would have worked as well if ICE had spent more time establishing how over-the-top-awesome they were supposed to be.

Without overdoing it? He underdid it! He underdid it so hard they might as well have not been there for all they did! I get their skills had degraded after being out of the loop for so long but they were ridiculously ineffectual to the point where you don't know how they got their reputations in the first place.

Well, the problem is that all the great moves done by the Talian commanders are mostly only seen from the Loyalists' point of view. The initial few battles in Li Heng are all from Hurl's point of view but Choss definitely seems to be pulling a few fast ones on the defenders. If we actually saw it from the Talian League's characters' PoV or Choss planning it ahead of time it'd seem more impressive.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 09 May 2010 - 11:22 PM

[amphibian]

D, on 09 May 2010 - 11:16 PM, said:

Well, the problem is that all the great moves done by the Talian commanders are mostly only seen from the Loyalists' point of view. The initial few battles in Li Heng are all from Hurl's point of view but Choss definitely seems to be pulling a few fast ones on the defenders. If we actually saw it from the Talian League's characters' PoV or Choss planning it ahead of time it'd seem more impressive.

Choss is the only one of the Old Guard actually doing anything truly impressive within the book (outside of the Ryllandaras hunt). His command of the final battle was competently shown. However, Toc couldn't take a fort without losing a significant chunk of his men and time, died chasing after a tribesman saying "Yew caaaan't doooo thiiiis" and did nothing with his famous cavalry skills. Custer at least had a last stand and he wasn't a quarter of the genius Toc the Eldre was cracked up to be. Ameron played some kind of game with assassins and spies, but the only clear success in the book that can be credited to him is the stashing and retrieval of Ghelel (who was a completely useless character). Perhaps he succeeded in getting the Talian forces within the initial walls of Heng, with the betrayal of certain elements within the city and perhaps he had a part in Laseen's death. Neither can truly be credited to him. Is that the extent of a former spymaster of the Empire's abilities? Urko's strategic failings can somewhat be mitigated because he's a sailor and given over to the "Hulk! Smash!" theory of battle when on land.

As portrayed, the Old Guard showed up, built a half-decent army on their names alone and then pissed it all away in a fashion that makes no sense given their former importance. If Kellanved, Dancer, Laseen, Tayschrenn and Whiskeyjack have acted with depth, subtlety and intelligence in almost all of their on-screen time, why did the others fail so miserably?

At the very least, the Crimson Guard did a better job of threatening the stability of the Malazan Empire - and they were dealing with a massive internal schism over command and purpose.

[Abyss]

The point is that the Old Guard thought they could 'just' march in and (re)take over and Laseen surprised them both in strategy and loyalty from the armies.

Sure, it would have been nice to see TocTE run cavalry circles around everyone but if ICE had made them so very awesome Laseen's triump would have been too contrived, or otherwise not generate any sympathy from the reader for what ultimately happens to her (which was Mallick's move, btw, not the Old Guard or Cowl's Veils).

The book has its flaws, but i didn't think a lack of awesome on the part of a bunch of characters we knew only from sideways reference was one of them. If anything it makes the point that their stories grew in the telling but as is usually the case they didn't live up to the hype.

[amphibian]

I think you and I fundamentally disagree over this stuff, which is fine, but I also think you missed a couple of my points, Abyss.

Abyss, on 10 May 2010 - 02:13 PM, said:

The book has its flaws, but i didn't think a lack of awesome on the part of a bunch of characters we knew only from sideways reference was one of them. If anything it makes the point that their stories grew in the telling but as is usually the case they didn't live up to the hype.

Why is Urko able to punch entire houses down? Why are Kellanved, Dancer, Laseen and Whiskeyjack very, very compentent in what they do/did? Why was Toc the Younger so well educated and perceptive? Dujek too. It seems odd that of a crew of people who began and ran an entire empire - transforming and evolving almost every local institution on the way - half of them are incompetent.

I can understand the stories growing in the tellings, but these people were set up - not just in sideways references - to be strong characters with areas of extreme expertise. There was a failure in how they were used, especially strategically. The Old Guard did not just march in expecting to take over - they knew that the success of their gambit largely depended upon taking Li Heng and/or destroying Laseen's army outside it. It's mentioned several times, and is the justification for the short siege of Li Heng. Laseen's triumph and co-opting of the Talians against the Crimson Guard would have been better if they were more competent.

I said the assassination of Laseen could partly be attributed to Ameron (if one stretched rather vigorously) because he and his small organization provided an extra layer to the assassin battle going on during the fights.

[Soloce]

First time poster, sometimes lurker (haven't gotten through TtH or DoD so haven't delved too deeply). I had a few questions/observations that I'd like some thoughts on.

1. When Coil (in her mage outfit - forget her name) has one of her only PoVs, she mentions she could tell Laseen something that she discovered in the archives that could change everything. What is this?

2. Something I'd really like to see is Skinner and Kallor duke it out for the King role. I was pretty sure that in one of the glossaries, it listed Kallor as king, but in this one it listed Skinner with Kallor nowhere around. It'd be nice if the dark side would screw up a bit too, with no help from the good guys.

3. What exactly is Dassem/Dessembrae (sp)? Why does he have this alternate persona? Why was he dedicated to Hood if he is an Ascendant himself?

4. Laseen -- everyone seems to be saying she anticipated everything. What exactly was her plan then? Assuming she survived the battle, the Empire is still in a pretty crappy place. It also seems like she and Tavore had a further plan, so she intentionally got rid of a large standing army. On that note, have we ever had a PoV from ST or Cot that definitely says they want revenge on Las? Not dialogue, but an internal monologue. Since we don't actually have a witness to their battle in NoK, and since Shadowthrone always has a plan, I'm wondering if this entire 15 years hasn't been planned with Las and Kel/Dancer together.

5. I totally missed that Osserc was in Dragnipur -- can someone point me to a book/section for this?

6. Who is the creepy dude working for Mallick? The warlock?

[Abyss]

amphibian, on 10 May 2010 - 05:32 PM, said:

... It seems odd that of a crew of people who began and ran an entire empire - transforming and evolving almost every local institution on the way - half of them are incompetent.

We can agree to disagree, but for the purpose of the debate, your point seems to be that since they lost, they are incompetent, or rather, the only way they could have lived up to the hype was if they won. I don't see it that way. They lost because they underestimated Laseen and the level of loyalty she actually had from the Empire, and overestimated their allies. The Empire was formed because Kellanved assembled a cadre of exceptional individuals and led them. Without him at the helm, they were still exceptional, just not exceptional enough.

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...I said the assassination of Laseen could partly be attributed to Ameron (if one stretched rather vigorously) because he and his small organization provided an extra layer to the assassin battle going on during the fights.

Sure, if your point is that Claw who might otherwise have been defending Laseen were off fighting Ameron's Talon. But it was still Mallick's assassin who took her out and Possum, who was right there, couldn't stop it.

Soloce, on 18 June 2010 - 11:40 AM, said:

1. When Coil (in her mage outfit - forget her name) has one of her only PoVs, she mentions she could tell Laseen something that she discovered in the archives that could change everything. What is this?

I don't think we ever found out. Anyone else recall otherwise?

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2. Something I'd really like to see is Skinner and Kallor duke it out for the King role. I was pretty sure that in one of the glossaries, it listed Kallor as king, but in this one it listed Skinner with Kallor nowhere around. It'd be nice if the dark side would screw up a bit too, with no help from the good guys.

Part of the CG's plan seems to be having his minions, lackies and thralls battle it out among themselves. Lok at What Karsa did to the House of Chains back in HoC.

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3. What exactly is Dassem/Dessembrae (sp)? Why does he have this alternate persona? Why was he dedicated to Hood if he is an Ascendant himself?

Dassem was an exceptional man who became Hood's Knight. Dassem grew in power in his own right. Das and Hood had a falling out and Das went his own way, promising to kill Hood. he seems to have retained some of the power he had as Knight, but also gained a following as a God of Sorrow, which has added to his power level. So he's a mortal man who became an ascendant and then became a god.

The interesting thing seems to be that he doesn't always act in his 'God of Sorrow' aspect, so the rest of the time he's an exceptional fighter, but when he acts in his God role he has further or other powers.

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4. Laseen -- everyone seems to be saying she anticipated everything. What exactly was her plan then? .

It appears her plan was to subvert the Loyalist army, which effectively doubled her own forces, giving her enough to confront the Crimson Guard. Put another way, with two completely different armies looking to invade and take over large chunks of her Empire, she used one to take out the other and ended up stronger for it.

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Assuming she survived the battle, the Empire is still in a pretty crappy place.

Yes, but it's HER crappy place.
And it's been said more than once that even under Laseen, the Empire was way better than any number of other places including most of Genebackis, 7C and pre-Empire Unta. So not so crappy. Plus while Laseen has screwed up, she's also been on the receiving end of plots by the CG and Rel and various political crap.

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It also seems like she and Tavore had a further plan, so she intentionally got rid of a large standing army.

It does seem that the plan was always for Tavore (or someone) to take an army against the CG but it also seems that the plan changed or went astray.

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On that note, have we ever had a PoV from ST or Cot that definitely says they want revenge on Las? Not dialogue, but an internal monologue. Since we don't actually have a witness to their battle in NoK, and since Shadowthrone always has a plan, I'm wondering if this entire 15 years hasn't been planned with Las and Kel/Dancer together.

GotM suggests there's a real desire for revenge but later monologues water that down to a GotMism more or less. ST and Dancer always had a plan but it doesn't seem that Laseen was in on it, even tho' she did benefit from it.

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5. I totally missed that Osserc was in Dragnipur -- can someone point me to a book/section for this?

He wasn't. Are you thinking of Osserc in Kyle's sword, or something else?

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6. Who is the creepy dude working for Mallick? The warlock?

We dunno.

And WELCOME, btw!


- Abyss, source of boundless useless information.

[amphibian]

Abyss, on 18 June 2010 - 03:27 PM, said:

We can agree to disagree, but for the purpose of the debate, your point seems to be that since they lost, they are incompetent, or rather, the only way they could have lived up to the hype was if they won. I don't see it that way. They lost because they underestimated Laseen and the level of loyalty she actually had from the Empire, and overestimated their allies. The Empire was formed because Kellanved assembled a cadre of exceptional individuals and led them. Without him at the helm, they were still exceptional, just not exceptional enough.

My point wasn't that the Old Guard needed to win in order to acquit themselves well. I quite liked the subversion of their army by Laseen to fend off the Crimson Guard.

I was pointing rather to the difference in characterization between the Old Guard in Erikson's work and Esslemont's work. Kellanved, Dancer, Whiskeyjack, Laseen, Urko, Duiker, Toc the Younger, Cartherton and with some stretching, Baudin the Elder (through the actions of Baudin the Younger) were all shown as capable of working on many levels, with long term plans and dealing with everything rather pragmatically. Erikson wrote those characters as complicated human beings who had both succeeded and failed on dramatic scale and just about all of them came off as a part of an incredibly capable band that had the ability to create the empire they did.

Esslemont gave us time with Ameron, Urko again, a little Cartherton, Toc the Elder and a few previously unknown characters. That was nice. However, he dropped them upon us with little to no introduction and they dealt with failure atrociously. Toc came on as the man who rallies the horse tribes swiftly, but fails to storm a Malazan/Wickan fortress and Ameron played shadow games mostly off-screen for someone we don't care about yet (Ghelel). Toc getting betrayed by the tribes works, but someone who has that command presence and is a shrewd judge of character doesn't die like that. Better yet to have him ambushed by the tribesmen as they left the field. Ameron doesn't totally lose, as Ghelel's still alive, Laseen's dead and some of his people still live. However, he tosses everything to the wind and goes after Ryllandaras. It's a truly odd choice for someone who's usually playing a deep game in the shadows, balancing long-term plans with immediate possibilities. He dies having dealt with Ryllandaras, but I would have liked to see him withdraw with Ghelel, to prepare for Mallick's reign or disappear once more. Urko was passable and Choss/Ullen were handled alright. It's not that these characters were "not exceptional enough" - it's that they were genuinely incompetent, which is odd considering that their longevity has been extended by the Deadhouse, their old companions in Erikson novels do rather well and they've managed to get a significant armed rebellion going against Laseen on her home continent. That's my problem: the usage of them as characters does not fit at all with what Erikson presented to us. Why would every incompetent member of the Old Guard be involved in the rebellion and not in Erikson's books?

The only Old Guard character Esslemont handled that I actually liked the style and actions of was Cartherton - who made a brilliant play for those munitions and then sailed off with a jaunty tilt to his hat.

[D'rek]

Abyss, on 18 June 2010 - 03:27 PM, said:

Soloce, on 18 June 2010 - 11:40 AM, said:

1. When Coil (in her mage outfit - forget her name) has one of her only PoVs, she mentions she could tell Laseen something that she discovered in the archives that could change everything. What is this?

I don't think we ever found out. Anyone else recall otherwise?

She had figured out what the Jhistal cult were.

Abyss, on 18 June 2010 - 03:27 PM, said:

Quote

On that note, have we ever had a PoV from ST or Cot that definitely says they want revenge on Las? Not dialogue, but an internal monologue. Since we don't actually have a witness to their battle in NoK, and since Shadowthrone always has a plan, I'm wondering if this entire 15 years hasn't been planned with Las and Kel/Dancer together.

GotM suggests there's a real desire for revenge but later monologues water that down to a GotMism more or less. ST and Dancer always had a plan but it doesn't seem that Laseen was in on it, even tho' she did benefit from it.

Yup. Plus someone later suggests that the whole Sorry ordeal in GotM was a feint of motivations and Cotillion was really in that mix in case he was necessary against the Pannion Domin. Can't remember when or who said this... QB maybe?

[Bonehunter]

"She had figured out what the Jhistal cult were."

--Could somebody enlighten me as to what specifically the Jhistal cult is? Thanks in advance.

I'm sure some of this has already been said, but this is a long thread so if I duplicated something my apologies.

As for what I thought of the novel I felt like it was a mixed bag. The combat was nicely done in places but seemed rushed in others. RtCG reminds me a bit of GoTM, where you are thrown into the book and most of the characters haven't reached a deep level of development. I also felt most of the characters were two dimensional in comparison to SE's, but that may just be a byproduct of having nine 800 page works of background in comparison to just the one book and novella for ICE.

Kyle especially bugged me, although I did enjoy reading his parts of the book. What irritated me about him was that he basically just kind of went with the flow, didn't really do much on his own, but everyone from Traveller to K'azz were saying how they were in his debt or that he was too good or something. It would have been more accurate for them to say, "Thank you for being a warm body in the right place."

Ghelel was also pointless as a character in this book, started off with promise but then petered out into irrelevancy. Perhaps it was to set her up for Stonewielder, but even if that's the case I can't say I'm too excited about following her in that book. For someone who was being trained in the martial arts since childhood and living at what should be an advantaged and knowledgeable noble house, she seemed awfully unaware of how the world actually worked.

Concerning Ereko's death to Kallor, perhaps he needed to die so Kallor could fulfill his vow, and thus end his portion of the curse and then be able to ascend? Maybe now though someone can finally kill the bastard.

Laseen to me was interesting, but I don't know how much of it was due to the previous characterization that SE did that I read first. It was nice to see her in action though, although in doing so I actually found her to be less imposing than the impressions I got from her minimal exposure in SE's works.

One thing in general that I found rather odd was the way certain characters revealed themselves toward the end of the book. For example out of nowhere to to Nait/Jumpy, Ho gives a paragraph rundown of his history with his "brothers." And K'azz talking to Kyle, "Jan is just part of my name, you guessed it, I'm Duke K'azz D'Avore!" Personally I thought the reveals for those could have been done in a way that would have had a bit more impact.

Also, poor Iron Bars! I really enjoyed the Seguleh bit with him, very well done. Really bad luck though in the end.

It was several pages back and I can't remember who said it, but I completely agree with the lanky/greasy hair comment. Instead of opening a bar when they retire perhaps the Bridgeburners should have opened up a hair salon, it could have made big bucks!

All that being said I really did like the book, it was a nice fast paced read and I can't wait for the next one to see what kind of progress is made. If the jump is even half of what it was from GoTM to Deadhouse Gates for SE, Stonewielder has major potential.