[Abyss]

MTS, on 29 July 2011 - 02:31 PM, said:

Quote

Her gaze snapped to him sidelong. Possum refused to acknowledge the attention. Let her imagine what she may. Had she not been his right hand? Was he now not hers? Let her wonder, and consider.

I can't remember Surly being a Talon originally, although it makes sense. I remember a while back someone speculated she may have been in the military because in NOK it's said she has a similar haircut to that worn by females in the ranks.

The Claw grew out of the Talon and i'm pretty sure somewhere there's a ref that confirms Surly as one of the original Talons.

[MTS]

Abyss, on 29 July 2011 - 02:47 PM, said:

MTS, on 29 July 2011 - 02:31 PM, said:

Quote

Her gaze snapped to him sidelong. Possum refused to acknowledge the attention. Let her imagine what she may. Had she not been his right hand? Was he now not hers? Let her wonder, and consider.

I can't remember Surly being a Talon originally, although it makes sense. I remember a while back someone speculated she may have been in the military because in NOK it's said she has a similar haircut to that worn by females in the ranks.

The Claw grew out of the Talon and i'm pretty sure somewhere there's a ref that confirms Surly as one of the original Talons.

I'm sure there's something said to that affect somewhere, I just don't remember it is what I'm saying.

[Kanese S's]

tiam, on 29 July 2011 - 12:33 PM, said:

Abyss, on 12 July 2011 - 04:58 PM, said:

tiam, on 10 July 2011 - 12:04 PM, said:

Abyss, on 23 July 2010 - 04:38 PM, said:

...
Remember that Dancer initially formed the Talon and Surly was one of them. She rose in the ranks and eventually formed and commanded the Claw. Presumably she wasn't a master assassin back when she was a barmaid.

This doesnt sounds right at all. They both formed their own organisation and presumably were heads of that organisation.

We need a MTS quote fu is what we need....

No quote fu handy but i'm pretty sure NoK, DG, MoI and HoC establish that Surly was originally Talon until the Claw were spun off under her command.

Kanubis, on 12 July 2011 - 04:20 PM, said:

Denul healing can prolong life, so the important folk in the Empire are pretty much sorted. Of course, the really pro people hang out in Azath houses to achieve much longevity.

Yep.

Ive reread NOK, ROTCG,SW,recently and am near the end of DG atm and I dont remember any mention of Surly being subservient to Possum.

As for the age thing, Denul rituals are reasonably common. In ROTCG Laseen is surprised that Braven Tooth is still alive and he sunk his back pay into one. While we have no idea of Claw payment structure its safe to assume they get paid more tha Braven Tooth and Possum is a potential Clawmaster so is wealthy.

I imagine that high ranking Claws get paid enough so that money isn't much of a concern for them.

[Gatekeeper]

I had heard nothing about Possum being above Lassen, other than that quote in Possum's mind-thought. Can anyone point in the right direction for more information on this subject? I also don't remember anything about Surly being an original Talon. I would like more info on her and the Naps though, wether they really were playing Kell or not. Also, who trained her? Why does she not fight with weapons other than hands and feet?

[Gathras]

Abyss, on 29 July 2011 - 01:51 PM, said:

tiam, on 29 July 2011 - 12:33 PM, said:

...
Ive reread NOK, ROTCG,SW,recently and am near the end of DG atm and I dont remember any mention of Surly being subservient to Possum...

Doesn't Possum inner monologue about it at the beginning while he is stalking someone in the crowd? Before Hood shows up in a skull.

I think you are talking about this passage (Bantam, page 77)

"Her(Lasseen) gaze snapped to him (Possum), sidelong. Possum refused to acknowledge the attention. Let her imagine what she may. Had she not been his right hand? Was he now not hers? Let her wonder, and consider."

Even though Dancer was Kellanveds right hand I think that the person Possum is referring to is Kellanved and not himself. Everything about the conversation between Laseen and Possum just seems like him being the one with less experience and him being her superior way back, just does not fit.

[Abyss]

Quote

...Everything about the conversation between Laseen and Possum just seems like him being the one with less experience and him being her superior way back, just does not fit.

It does if you consider that notwithstanding his experience and previous role as her superior, she's just plain better than him. After all, we don't see Possum solo kicking Avowed face in barefoot, do we?

[Use Of Weapons]

Given ICE's problems with writing in general, and object/subject confusion in particular, I have no qualms in agreeing with Gathras's interpretation.

[Shadow of Shadowthrone]

Just finished this book today. Now, only "Crack'd Pot Trail" and "Stonewielder" remain for me to feel part of the club (already into the prologue of "Stonewielder").
The most obvious thing with "Return of the Crimson Guard" is that it feels much closer to Erikson's writing in terms of style, pace, number of characters etc. than "Night of Knives". I was scratching my head just as often as with an Erikson book, at any rate.
It took me a long while to read it because I found the first half somewhat slow; structure-wise this book is also close to Erikson with the convergence/battles toward the end.
So having finished it I am pretty clueless about most of the stuff that happened, and several of the characters presented were difficult to keep apart (again, much like Erikson) but there was a standout in the form of Nait, who was really enjoyable to read.

I didn't understand much of this "Yath" character; nor can I say that I understood Ho and his quest, or Hurl and Silk and Shimmer; they seem so undefined, but a re-read will probably help set things straight.
Who is Storo? No idea. Remember the name. Rillish? No idea.

Skinner was a badass character though. Why did Hurl& co (orwhoever it was) release Ryllandaras?

[tiam]

Shadow of Shadowthrone, on 20 October 2011 - 07:14 PM, said:

Just finished this book today. Now, only "Crack'd Pot Trail" and "Stonewielder" remain for me to feel part of the club (already into the prologue of "Stonewielder").
The most obvious thing with "Return of the Crimson Guard" is that it feels much closer to Erikson's writing in terms of style, pace, number of characters etc. than "Night of Knives". I was scratching my head just as often as with an Erikson book, at any rate.
It took me a long while to read it because I found the first half somewhat slow; structure-wise this book is also close to Erikson with the convergence/battles toward the end.
So having finished it I am pretty clueless about most of the stuff that happened, and several of the characters presented were difficult to keep apart (again, much like Erikson) but there was a standout in the form of Nait, who was really enjoyable to read.

I didn't understand much of this "Yath" character; nor can I say that I understood Ho and his quest, or Hurl and Silk and Shimmer; they seem so undefined, but a re-read will probably help set things straight.
Who is Storo? No idea. Remember the name. Rillish? No idea.

Skinner was a badass character though. Why did Hurl& co (orwhoever it was) release Ryllandaras?

Yath was an exiled mage sent to the Otateral mines as a poltical prisoner. He tried absorbing/utilizing the power of the the other mages on the ship through the warren to bolster his own powers. As a result he opened a rift into chaos which is wat Tay had to deal with. Ho was also a Human Divers, the other portions of himself were the triplets names Ahl who somehow got him imprisoned. Its unclear if he got them back into his own body as at one point he claimed he didnt yet to another character claimed he did. I tend to believe the latter.

Storo is a member of the Old Guard who had just returned from the GEnabackan campaign. Hes a new character introduced by ICE who dies at the end through the infection of Rylandars talons I believe. Silk is a mystery though his harnessing of KT suggests Liosan. However this is unlikely and it is more probable the Protectress of Li Heng was a Liosan figure as Silk channels a remnant of power fom her temple. In anycase a mysterious but powerful mage. Hurl freed Ryllandars in an effort to relieve pressure on the siege of Li Heng. Ryllandars had hunted upon the plains until Kellenved (possibly with help from Treach) chained him around a century ago under Li Heng. He was designed to maul the besieging Seti, who now worshipped him as a god.

Shimmer is an Avowed of the CGRD. She appeared to be of a higher rank than other Avowed in the same way that Skinner was. By that I mean we are told that all Avowed are in theory equal yet Skinner Shimmer Cowl etc are in leadership roles. She provided a 'loyal to Kazz' viewpoint in contrast to Skinner and Cowls personal ambition. Rillish was a nobleborn commander of a garrison near the Wickan border. His garrison held portions of Wickans and was thus set upon by a mob of people enforcing the unofficial (maybe official by this point) pogrom against them. At the end of ROTCG Rillish Jel Keth had lost his title and land and was living with the former Sergeantin his unit Talia and there son.

Hope that helps its been a while since I read ROTCG so that might not all be correct.

[Ben Delat]

I was going to mention something about Silk, I wasnt sure if he was a liosan under a gaes like L'oric or what, but Tiam's explanation is just as likely. Although whenever I think of him I think of Quick and the references here and there about him being part andii and being under agaes....

Im not sure I liked Kyle in the role of Soldier of Light but he ended up filling it decently. The boyz from Assail were hilarious and a great source of good action and comic relief throughout the book.

What's with High ranking claw's being part Tiste? Pearl claimed to be part Andii, they just about say so for Topper and Possum had something about him that made me think the same for him. Between these guys, quick, L'oric and others it makes me wonder how many people with the blood of elder races is running around that we just don't realize.

This book overall was developed almost perfectly, especially with regard to the crimson guard, their leadership and the changes that happen within that leadership. I just hope that at some point in either one of the subsequent ICE or SE books we get to see Skinner finally Get his, Dassem stabbing him in the throat was good, but not enough.

I am rereading NoK right now but this discussion has made me want to go through RotCG a third run through =)

This post has been edited by Ben Delat: 12 November 2011 - 04:01 PM

[worry]

I had the same notion about Possum, and for the life of me can't remember where or why.

Anyway, re: your first paragraph, you shouldn't discuss later book events in earlier book forums (even if they're tiny details to you), unless you put them behind a labeled spoiler tag.

[Ben Delat]

took the part I am assuming your talking about out for now

[Sandalath]

Wow, I have just finished this book, it took me bout a month to read as the first half of the book is so slow, like one of the posters above.
The one major point of confusion I have is, the big cliffhanger; Laseen's death. It confused the hell out of me because I Can't remember anyone hearing about it in the Malazan novels, Then I face palmed myself and thought; Of course the other army members in the 11th wouldn't know what the hell is going on in quon tali. Then my second thought was well done Ian Cameron esslemont for keeping that one quiet. Awesome ending to a fine book.

I was a bit confused by Mallick Rel becoming the new administrator for the empire though. I can barely remember what he got upto during the seven cities campaign. It was a long time ago I read Deadhouse gates-memories of ice. All I remember is he was a jhistal priest messing with Korbolo Dom and the seas trying to stop Nok from landing in Aren. Or am I just confused? It seemed a bit of an about turn that he would end up as such a good politician.

I am intrigued as to what will happen to Iron Bars in Stonewielder, and What Mallick Rel will make of the Empire.

This post has been edited by Sandalath: 27 May 2012 - 04:00 PM

[Abyss]

Sandalath, on 27 May 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

...I was a bit confused by Mallick Rel becoming the new administrator for the empire though. I can barely remember what he got upto during the seven cities campaign. It was a long time ago I read Deadhouse gates-memories of ice. All I remember is he was a jhistal priest messing with Korbolo Dom and the seas trying to stop Nok from landing in Aren. Or am I just confused? It seemed a bit of an about turn that he would end up as such a good politician. ...

Rel was always a master manipulator. He subverted the Claw away from Laseen and was the main player behind he and Dom becoming 'heroes' post DG/HoC.
Given the opportunity, he tricked various Quon higher-ups into relying on him to the point that he was the logical chocie for Emporer when Laseen was taken out.

Tricky, frustrating, even infuriating, but it made sense.

[the broken]

Gathras, on 02 August 2011 - 02:47 PM, said:

Abyss, on 29 July 2011 - 01:51 PM, said:

tiam, on 29 July 2011 - 12:33 PM, said:

...
Ive reread NOK, ROTCG,SW,recently and am near the end of DG atm and I dont remember any mention of Surly being subservient to Possum...

Doesn't Possum inner monologue about it at the beginning while he is stalking someone in the crowd? Before Hood shows up in a skull.

I think you are talking about this passage (Bantam, page 77)

"Her(Lasseen) gaze snapped to him (Possum), sidelong. Possum refused to acknowledge the attention. Let her imagine what she may. Had she not been his right hand? Was he now not hers? Let her wonder, and consider."

Even though Dancer was Kellanveds right hand I think that the person Possum is referring to is Kellanved and not himself. Everything about the conversation between Laseen and Possum just seems like him being the one with less experience and him being her superior way back, just does not fit.

Agreed. Apart from anything else, if Laseen had been Possum's right hand once, wouldn't he already know that she's pretty good at hand to hand combat? Possum is referring to Kellanved or Dancer in that thought.

A point about the competency of the Old Guard...

Toc was incredibly unlucky. They took their time to assault Heng (and this in itself is a step up from most fantasy novels, where most people just go 'Attaaaaacck!'), because they flat didn't have enough men to take the walls, so they had to wait for more. The defenders released Ryllandaras, which meant Imotan gained power, and decided he didn't need Toc to level Heng.

Urko? I couldn't see anything wrong with anything he did.

Amaron's specialty is sneaky stuff. He was probably doing a lot behind the scenes. And his trick allowed the army to take Heng's outer walls. He also organised Ghelel's security.

The planned coup in Li Heng very nearly worked. It only didn't because Storo had Silk and Rell, which the Old Guard had no way to anticipate. Which meant that the League had to alter their plans to take Heng, which led to the failure of the whole plan.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Mallick Rel is especially frustrating when you consider how many times people have thought about killing him. JUST DO IT ALREADY!

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 28 May 2012 - 10:52 PM

[Yedan]

I absolutely LOVED this book almost as much as MoI. I think it's great how much ICE writes about the characters SE teases about. Frankly, any time I read something that has to do with Dassem and his First Sword, I get all giddy and excited.

One of the best characters of this book was Rell. When they finally let slip where he came from I think I actually yelled "BADASS" super loud which woke the girlfriend up and as a very sad result, I slept on the couch. On the up side, I read a whole lot more because my couch sucks complete ass and I could not sleep. Is that an up side? hmmmm

The final battle was one huge pitched tent for me. Is that crude? If so I apologize.

Totally worth a read! ICE's writing style, weather or not it was on purpose, mimic'd SE's perfectly. I thouroughly enjoyed this!

[D'rek]

Gathras, on 02 August 2011 - 02:47 PM, said:

Abyss, on 29 July 2011 - 01:51 PM, said:

tiam, on 29 July 2011 - 12:33 PM, said:

...
Ive reread NOK, ROTCG,SW,recently and am near the end of DG atm and I dont remember any mention of Surly being subservient to Possum...

Doesn't Possum inner monologue about it at the beginning while he is stalking someone in the crowd? Before Hood shows up in a skull.

I think you are talking about this passage (Bantam, page 77)

"Her(Lasseen) gaze snapped to him (Possum), sidelong. Possum refused to acknowledge the attention. Let her imagine what she may. Had she not been his right hand? Was he now not hers? Let her wonder, and consider."

Even though Dancer was Kellanveds right hand I think that the person Possum is referring to is Kellanved and not himself. Everything about the conversation between Laseen and Possum just seems like him being the one with less experience and him being her superior way back, just does not fit.

I'm not against the Possum/Laseen role reversal idea - Possum could easily have been one of Dancer's Talon captains before Surly started Talon training herself, but she became better than all the others and rose above him, and when she made the Claw Possum transferred over.

But I also think it's possible to simply read it as:

"[Laseen's] gaze snapped to [Possum's], sidelong. Possum refused to acknowledge the attention. Let [Laseen] imagine what she may. Had [Laseen] not been [Dancer's] right hand? Was [Possum] now not [Laseen's]? Let her wonder, and consider."

With the sort of implications that since Laseen turned against Dancer, she can now wonder/consider what Possum might be thinking now that Possum is in a similar position to what she was once had to Dancer.


I disagree with the "his" being interpreted as Kellanved, though.