[panic]

Agraba;196960 said:

While Erikson expresses his disdain for generic fantasy stuff, he does quite a bit of it himself. There are characters who you would view as completely good, and wouldn't ever disagree with their notions. Fiddler and Trull, for instance; I don't think either character ever did something in the series that we'd view as less than heroic (if so, then it's a very small instance), and then say 'gah, I dislike this character, and hope he loses/dies'. Nor have characters like Kallor, Bidithal, Anaster (the original), Hairlock, Mallick Rel, or others ever elicit our sympathy. The only reason people would have sympathy for the Crippled God was because of his story; it's not like he's shown us any sign of something endearing to a reader. And let me mention that a villain who is bent on causing suffering only only in spite of his own suffering is very much a generic villainy motivation. It is, in fact, just revenge.

And in almost every book (excepting GotM and maybe MT) there is one faction that is inherently the 'good guy' faction, and the other which is those we hope would lose. Even though they did have some PoVs of main characters we love (the best example is the many loved characters in Sha'ik's camp in HoC like Heboric, Karsa, etc.), that faction is still the one with an inherently 'bad' intent.

Many times things aren't grey, and it is very clear which characters we like, and which ones we don't.

Anaster does elicit sympathy

[Bottle]

I can't see why they would go and live on the moon in the first place. SE hasn't described it to look any different from our moon (IIRC) so I guess we can presume it's just barren lifeless rock. Why not just go and hide in a Warren instead? It all seems pointless to me.

I think it's safe to assume Apsalar's comment was a romantic belief of the Kanese, and that no actual deity or garden exists on the moon. Udinaas' comment, as I see it, is a mockery of Apsalar's. A series in-joke as befits both Stevie Erikson, and the Character Udinaas.

I don't actually think the Crippled God has anything to do with the K'chain, other then manipulating factors on Wu, that might bring them back into play. But no explicit alliance, or contact. The crippled god displays very "human" characteristics, where-as the K'chain are something else. Something Alien.

[Dolorous Menhir]

If I remember the BH reference to "and on the moon, gardens died," correctly, then those weren't the words of any character but rather a description by the narrator (or whatever you want to the descriptive passages). Which suggests the gardens do actually exist.

[the corinthian]

Agraba;196960 said:

While Erikson expresses his disdain for generic fantasy stuff, he does quite a bit of it himself. There are characters who you would view as completely good, and wouldn't ever disagree with their notions. Fiddler and Trull, for instance; I don't think either character ever did something in the series that we'd view as less than heroic (if so, then it's a very small instance), and then say 'gah, I dislike this character, and hope he loses/dies'. Nor have characters like Kallor, Bidithal, Anaster (the original), Hairlock, Mallick Rel, or others ever elicit our sympathy. The only reason people would have sympathy for the Crippled God was because of his story; it's not like he's shown us any sign of something endearing to a reader. And let me mention that a villain who is bent on causing suffering only only in spite of his own suffering is very much a generic villainy motivation. It is, in fact, just revenge.

actually, i disagree with quite a lot of this, all those bad guys you mentioned, ive never considered any of them to be 'evil'. hairlock and anaster were driven insane by various things. bithidal was messed up, but in his own way he cared for his 'children'. kallor always struck me as bored, just passing the time and although he killed his empire, it was an act of extreme detatchement from the real world. In mallick rel i think we have the greediest, most self serving character in the entire series but he seems incredibly human for all that, not a nice guy but real in his unpleasentness, we cant all be saints after all.

i know hes got a back story and he was dragged down, crippled and all that rubbish but the CG is the most annoying addition to the books because he is such a 'big bad', nemesis to all the 'nicer' characters, just a necessary person for them to pit themselves against, un-killable and everpresent in his machinations, i dont think he was needed at all in the series, or his backstory, just an unfortunate surrender by erikson so he doesnt have to have his favorite characters fight each other instead of the CG

[Agraba]

Mael;197093 said:

You're confusing two different time periods for the KCNR.

The time period for the KCNR you are speaking about is the first one. These KCNR were most likely wiped out by thier Jaghut slaves (genetically engineered creations?) with all thier skykeeps overwealmed with OP. During this time period there are no Imass. The only species we know about at this time are the Elient, the KCNR, the KCCM (maybe a slave race aswell), the Jaghut, the Eres (maybe) and most likely the Deregoth. After this time period I am assuming that they KCNR are completely wiped out. These KCNR didn't go anywhere, after all why would you have to resurrect a species that still exists and you could possibly summon via your super powerful magic.

The time period for the KCNR I am speaking about is much later when the KCNR species are resurrected by the remaining enclaves of KCCM (perhaps using KCNR robotic tummy bugs or something) who force them to share thier power with the matrons. The KCNR don't like being slaves or the power sharing idea too much and rebel forcing the KCCM matron on morn to try and harness chaos, trapping herself in the rent. This leaves the remaining KCCM on morn disorganized and essentially helpless compared to the KCNR who wipe them out then leave in thier fancy skykeeps. This rebellion occurs shortly (generally speaking) after the tiste invasion but before the Ritual of Tellan (say within 100 years or so).

To your first paragraph: Other than the mass revival of KNR, the KNR and KCM never actually lived side-by-side, because the KCM evolved from the KNR. What you mention of the Jhagut wiping out KNR sky-keeps might have been right, and it might have been what took out all their technology before they evolved (I don't think KCCM ever had technology), but there has to have been a surviving, possibly hidden population of KNR in order for them to undergo evolution.

Also, I agree with the events in your 2nd paragraph, but what makes you think the Ritual happens so soon after? I think it would have taken much longer for the Imass to become dominant, and create a major empire that makes them the super power. Also, we know the rent can exist for very long (because it existed right up to the time of regular MoI), so I think it took millennia between the departure of the KNR and the Ritual.

Quote

hairlock and anaster were driven insane by various things.

The same story as the CG, the 'big bad nemesis' that you mention.

Quote

bithidal was messed up, but in his own way he cared for his 'children'.

He cared for making them submit to the Crippled God, if that's what you mean.

Quote

kallor always struck me as bored, just passing the time and although he killed his empire, it was an act of extreme detatchement from the real world.

You just expressed a dictionary defenition of evil.

Quote

In mallick rel i think we have the greediest, most self serving character in the entire series but he seems incredibly human for all that, not a nice guy but real in his unpleasentness, we cant all be saints after all.

Very similar to most human villains that we see in generic storylines.

Also, I was mostly trying to say that in most of the books (excluding GotM and MT) it was never about which side being preferred to win as a subjective thing. There was always one side of a war that we favoured. Even in HoC, when the Raraku side held many characters we liked, like Karsa and Heboric, the book still made it very clear that their side was very un-agreeable. In fact, the characters we did like in Raraku detested the WW goddess' intent, and she just turned out to be a crazy bitch anyways.

[Mael]

Agraba;197238 said:

To your first paragraph: Other than the mass revival of KNR, the KNR and KCM never actually lived side-by-side, because the KCM evolved from the KNR. What you mention of the Jhagut wiping out KNR sky-keeps might have been right, and it might have been what took out all their technology before they evolved (I don't think KCCM ever had technology), but there has to have been a surviving, possibly hidden population of KNR in order for them to undergo evolution.

You could quite possibly be right. i'll bet we find out a lot more about it in the next book

Quote

Also, I agree with the events in your 2nd paragraph, but what makes you think the Ritual happens so soon after? I think it would have taken much longer for the Imass to become dominant, and create a major empire that makes them the super power. Also, we know the rent can exist for very long (because it existed right up to the time of regular MoI), so I think it took millennia between the departure of the KNR and the Ritual.

The Imass were never a "super power" like the KCCM were with thier massive cities and continent spanning paving jobs. They were always very primative (generally speaking), tribal and never evolved to a more civilized way of life. Sure they spread and multiplied across the world but still as the hunter-gatherer type society.

When they use the term "First Empire" it is not as a term used with pride but rather one that is laced with scorn and even mockery when refering to the misnamed human "First Empire". The Imass did not form thier Empire by choice. Rather, they had it thrust upon them by the Jaghut. When discovering the lies they threw off the trappings of thier false civilization (and false gods) and began thier war. This had already occured before the events on Morn and the Tiste Invasion and is why Scabby remarks that the Jaghut are almost extinct and the Imass weapons pose no threat since the Imass are aggressivly wiping out the Jaghut, but he doesnt think they have to worry about them since he's an overconfident prick.

As for why I believe the Ritual occured shortly after the Tiste invasion and the incidents with the KCCM and KCNR on Morn, it has to do with the Mortal Imass and the Tiste Edur fighting their battle on the seas. After Mael and Killmandaros kill scabbie Mael says he will scatter the Tiste Edur. In MoI we discover that the Barghast are the decendants of mortal Imass and Toblakai that missed the ritual of Tellan because they were fighting the Tiste Edur on the seas (the first time the Imass, who had essentially spanned the globe by this time fighting thier war, had ever seen them) making it impossible for them to land to enact the ritual.

Now, i will conceed that a hundred years or two must have passed between the events on morn and the Ritual of tellan since Morn is already blasted and there is an old Jaghut tower (already cleaned out by the Imass since Pran Chole and his tribe knew about it) in front of the rent. But not the significant amount of time that you are saying occured.

[Skywalker]

Alorion DarkenBlade;196948 said:

I feel the SE writes in the non herioc fantasy ..where evil is only the perception of the other side and I like it.

I can see CG's side pulled down from his celestral abode ripped to shreds then as an anthema to the world he was pulled into chained, i'd be a bit miffed as well.
I personaly think that if some uber villian emerged saying HA i was pulling all these strings to my own ends to sow chaos and discord so you wouldnt notice my dastardly plan to own the world , i'd be rather upset.

Alorion

I agree... if you take some poetic license, you could almost look at the Crippled God as something of a Edmund Dante (Count of Monte Cristo) figure. He was sitting nicely on his planet, curious about this or that... when WHAMMO, gets pulled away, ripped to shreds, and gets chained (many times, insult to injury). I'd be pissed... wouldn't you?

Then after millennia spent in pain and deformity, the guy starts gathering up all those like himself (flawed) and starts up these supposedly accepting of all fault cults (the cult in DG (I forgot the name of that rapist mutilator priest), Silgar, Felisin Fatter et al). Of course, what makes him evil/ the baddie is that he is hardly doing this out of sympathy - he's doing it with malice, and a wish to spread pain. What makes him evil is his plan to infect/ kill Burn.

I love that with a little stretch of the imagination and allowing for a few foibles (world-destroying ones anyway) you can sympathize with the baddie in SEs work. For instance at some point during the BH, I actually thought the philosophy behind Felisin Fatter's cult made a warped kind of sense... but that was before the perversity took hold.

[Folken]

As I can't be arsed to read ALL your posts since I'm at work...obviously the CG is the main villian and will play a huge part in coming novels because well...simply put the last novel in the series is called "The Crippled God"...wouldn't make any sense now would it if he wasn't supposed to play a large part;)

[Dark Mac]

sky_walker;197356 said:

I agree... if you take some poetic license, you could almost look at the Crippled God as something of a Edmund Dante (Count of Monte Cristo) figure. He was sitting nicely on his planet, curious about this or that... when WHAMMO, gets pulled away, ripped to shreds, and gets chained (many times, insult to injury). I'd be pissed... wouldn't you?

Well, that depends on what kind of guy he originally was. I see him as a pretty nasty guy to start with, as I believe he was left alone for a while (3 years?) before he was chained, so he must have done some nasty stuff to get all those ascendants to come together against him. And the invasion fleet of Jade Giants sent after him is either his army (which would likely make him bad) or something sent to stop him (because he's bad).

[Folken]

As far as I remember the Fall itself lasted a couple of months. He suffered for months during the Fall when he was being torn to pieces so as nice as he might have been in his own world he driven insane during the Fall...can't really blame him

[kkyyyssss]

the thing im not getting, is where did you get the idea the jaghut killed the KCCM? they killed themselves when the short tails rebelled... the remainder might have been finished off by the jaghut and the tiste and obviously a couple were as was mentionned in MT, but the KCCM are to the jaghuts what the jaghuts are to the tlan imass... cant wait to see what the Retruning KCCM are going to do in the next volumes...

[Mael]

Kilava;197500 said:

the thing im not getting, is where did you get the idea the jaghut killed the KCCM? they killed themselves when the short tails rebelled... the remainder might have been finished off by the jaghut and the tiste and obviously a couple were as was mentionned in MT, but the KCCM are to the jaghuts what the jaghuts are to the tlan imass... cant wait to see what the Retruning KCCM are going to do in the next volumes...

The KCCM spanned every continent except 7 cities during thier time of dominence. By the time the Tiste invasion occurs in the prologue of MT the KCCM are already virtually wiped out and this is before the KCNR rebellion occurs on Morn. The decimation of the KCCM from super power to scattered enclaves fighting for survival against multiple foes was accomplished by the Jaghut as is evidenced by Silchas Ruin, a letherii archeologist and other minor hints throughout the book.

You are correct in quoting the lines "the KCCM are to the Jaghut, what the Jaghut were to the Imass". The Imass were a "subservient" race who wiped out the Jaghut in similar fashion. Although I realize that the statement was made in comparison to thier general levels of society, the comparison between the downfall of thier respective societies cannot be ignored. One interesting thing to note would be that the Jaghut apparently realized that this was inevitable and abandoned thier civilization prior to the Tyrants enslavement (through thier portraying themselves as Gods) of the Imass population which would lead to the jaghuts (and the Imass') virtual extinction.

[Agraba]

The Imass never really went extinct. Those that didn't join the ritual went on to evolve into humans.

[Mael]

Agraba;197612 said:

The Imass never really went extinct. Those that didn't join the ritual went on to evolve into humans.

Ya, but i just meant that the Imass society was essentially no more (Having converted to T'lan Imass) except for those in the refugeeum who evolved into Humanity. There are still quite a few Jaghut running around aswell so they never really went "extinct" either. So you could think of thier societies as extinct if you wanted to debate semantics.

Hence the "Virtual" extinction.

[ch'arlz]

Dark Mac;197487 said:

Well, that depends on what kind of guy he originally was. I see him as a pretty nasty guy to start with, as I believe he was left alone for a while (3 years?) before he was chained, so he must have done some nasty stuff to get all those ascendants to come together against him.

I think you have it here. Right from the start in GotM we're told that the gods are at war. CG may have been the nastiest of the lot before the others ganged up to toss him out. The whole 10-book arc may be the story of a) his ultimate revenge, or his final vanquishment. In any case, I doubt he was innocently minding his own business.

I'm betting b.

[kkyyyssss]

you re gonna have to give me real quotes saying the jaghut are the cause of the KCCM's downfall because i really dont remember reading something like that... i read most of the books many many times and from what i recall the short tails have always been described as the cause for the matron s downfall...

[Lisheo]

This has been said before, but what about Father Light being the Crippled God? The whole power once being "the sweetest kiss" suggests that he was a caring god, certainly.

[Lisheo]

I know i went a bit off the current topic there, but so many threads are discussing the KCCM I thought it might be a good idea to throw something different into the discussion.

[presumingpete]

am I the only one whos currently thinking that shadowthrone or cotillion is the main bad guy? It wouldnt surprise me in the slightest if it turned out cotillion was always the more understanding god but also the one who wanted the most power?

[snoopster]

presumingpete;198657 said:

am I the only one whos currently thinking that shadowthrone or cotillion is the main bad guy? It wouldnt surprise me in the slightest if it turned out cotillion was always the more understanding god but also the one who wanted the most power?

I have been thinking something like that - not that they are bad guys as such but that perhaps they are setting the CG up as a distraction while they keep grabbing more and more power.