[The_Saviour]

Aptorian;210071 said:

Most likely, not ever. If such a thing can at all be reversed it would be something a god or more probable, Burn would take care of. Perhaps life slowly seeps back into areas like that but it takes a lot longer than 300.000 years it would seem.

Remember there was also such a place in DG.

Beak's last candle, also deadend the area to magic.

As for the Crippled God, Withal's breaking of the sword is nothing more than another setback, and for a God that seems to feed on failure, i'm pretty sure theat he's going to come back hard on thos who oppose him. Something tells me the nest few books are going to be pretty bleak.

Also, for a God who thrives on misdirection, the war with the Crippled God strikes me as Shadowthrone's best time to put his "plan" into action.

And the KCNR, what if, instead of waiting in the Imperial Warren, they were hiding? What if there's something forcing the KCNR to hide in the Imerial Warren?

[Tehol Beddict]

Jade Giants, the Crippled God... or............................... KALLOR!!!! He's uber pissed at K'rul, Draconus, and the Sister of Cold Nights so, why not destroy the rest of the world? If HE can't rule it, no-one should... maybe he can steal Brood's hammer... *shifty look*. Cheers:D:p

[Kalahinen]

I like your idea Tehol! Although personally I think that SE has something else in mind for Kallor, possibly something that will change our picture of him somewhat.

[Zanth13]

Kalahinen;286025 said:

I like your idea Tehol! Although personally I think that SE has something else in mind for Kallor, possibly something that will change our picture of him somewhat.

like turning him into a corpse?

[Imperium Corruo]

Right now at the end of Reaper's Gale I think the Crippled God is definitely qualifying as the main villain in these books. Look at the Pannion Domin, look at "Felisin the Fatter" (eloquently put), look at Rulad.

Second in line as far as villainy is The Errant. So far it seems he likes killing people for kicks. I don't think we've seen him effect a single positive "nudge" (unlike Oponn which clearly provides for good luck and back luck. It was been suggested in the books he desires to revive the predominance of the Holds, this seems pretty much neither here nor there to me, not particularly villainous.

A Third Possibility is Shadowthrone, but despite his casual massacre starting the series off, there really doesn't appear to be any true malice in his actions. Undoubtedly his actions are for his own benefit, he seems to disregard collateral damage, but doesn't go out of his way to inflict suffering.

[Mentalist]

meh
I resen the idea of "the main villain", and hope that TtH will give us a lot of perspective on the CG and why he feels the way he does, etc. there's a lot of "gods are what their worshippers make of them" talk throughtout RG and at least some of it is directed straight at the CG.

that being said, we have ample threats, from more Jade chunks, to a resurgence of various K'Chain, to the mystery of the Stormriders.

[Venerus]

Imperium Corruo;286997 said:

A Third Possibility is Shadowthrone, but despite his casual massacre starting the series off, there really doesn't appear to be any true malice in his actions. Undoubtedly his actions are for his own benefit, he seems to disregard collateral damage, but doesn't go out of his way to inflict suffering.

Not that I think SE writes didactic morality plays with clear "bad guys" and "good guys" but...

Even if Shadowthrone were the "villain" of this series, I wouldn't care. He can be my emperor any day. I'd just flip my morals and jump on his bandwagon. Or under it, whatever he wanted.

I love ST the way Heaven's Gate loved Hale-Bop.

[Imperium Corruo]

kud13;287001 said:

meh
I resen the idea of "the main villain", and hope that TtH will give us a lot of perspective on the CG and why he feels the way he does, etc. there's a lot of "gods are what their worshippers make of them" talk throughtout RG and at least some of it is directed straight at the CG.

I don't think that applies fully to the Crippled God. He made the Teneskowri (spelling off I know) not the other way around. He also corrupted younger Felisin, not because that's what she wanted, but because he wanted depravity.

Why he feels the way he does? That has the potential for a terrible sob story, but he has to be judged by his actions and his effect on the world. Creating a world in which everyone delights in their own pain, suffering, and filth so as to eliminate social disparities or what have you, is patently "villainous" regardless of how the Crippled God feels or why.

[Mentalist]

correction: Pannion created the Tenescowri. Felisin the Fatter was
a) messed up by Bidithal, who, while being the Magi of HoC, wanted to use that to restore the cult of Rashan.
betrayed and abandoned by just about everyone in Sha'ik's camp to be subjected to a)

and only after that did the crazy plaguebearer who's led by tCG get a hold of her and got a chance to influence her.

And what about Poliel? she joined CG to spread the Plague, but it was all "to heal Burn", in her own, twisted way. There is a cause and a semi-decent motivation for every action in MBotF, and I don't believe that CG is an exception. it would be too simple if that happened.

[Venerus]

For you, Imperium:

http://malazanworld.com/forums/showthread....8812#post278812


He's just a misunderstood alien who wants to help. Worshippers shape their gods and all that; he's just responding to the demands of mortals.

[Imperium Corruo]

Granted he is pulled into an alien realm, isolated and literally chained, how does that change anything?

He still promotes suffering in his followers. He was behind the creation of the Tenescowri through the actions of his servant, he certainly didn't object to the starvation of the population into a mindless horde of hungry depravity.

He caught Felisin Second in a vulnerable state exploited the harm caused to her by his servant Bithidal. Rather, than setting her up as a sympathetic queen to the poor and oppressed he corrupts her weakness and uses it as a tool of control. Encouraging her and her little kingdom to embrace that suffering and brokenness.

The fact that he is somehow shaped by his worshipers, doesn't go far to his credit for me. In his position it seems he has two choices, to care for his broken subjects as they are in love, giving them the strength to deal with their condition and overcome it in a positive manner, or, to disparage all those positive ambitions and allow his followers to be satisfied with ever more suffering and depravity, within themselves and inflicted on others.

Whatever his background, whatever the "demands" of his followers his schemes and their consequences have consistently shown themselves to be "villainous." I can agree somewhat with the argument that the origin "villainy" behind the Crippled God is in those broken, suffering and depraved who have no desire to improve themselves and wish the same suffering upon all, but and equal amount rests in him, as he is the focus of that suffering from where it is directed outward into the world. His power is used to cause these harms and he seems to enjoy it as much as those such as Bithidal who follow him.

[Venerus]

He doesn't really get it though. Plus, at this point, I'm convinced "Order" (whoever/whatever that is -- my thought is the Azath/Tiles/Cards-related) has empowered Chaos using the CG to fix the problem Draconus created when he slowed down the "seasonal" migration of KG.

[Lisheo]

The Crippled God is NOT evil. With the Tenescowri, it was Pannion who created them, not the CG. The CG does not order anything, its more like he whispers advice on how to make a person's darkest desires come true. Pannion was betrayed by his family, then tortured by his 'Mother' the insane Matron, and somewhere deep in his heart lay the desire to get revenge on the world, destroy family, destroy everything. He forced the Pannions into what they became, destroying the idea of family by creating the Seerdomin, Children of the Dead Seed etc. The Crippled God merely provided him with advice on how to go about it, advice which corupted the already slightly insane Jaghut. And offered him the use of Chaos, but as seen before, even mortals can access Chaos, so what the CG gave Pannion really wasnt much.

Similarly, what did Rhulad want but to become Emperor? Circumstances and the CG's nudge chose him over Hannan Mosag, but the path he walked was his of his own devising. I hardly think the CG forced him to steal his brother's wife. The only time the CG has actually forced someone to do anything is with Withal. What the CG is, is a God of Desire. He answered prayers of those who had nothing else to turn to, the broken and depraved, and to be fair, its not his fault that their desires are so warped and bitter. The CG is a God, torn from his world, who actually answers the prayers of his believers on his new home. He might be a little insane but thats hardly his fault, it was the Circle of Mages who dragged him down.

Felisin younger was made that way by Bidithal. That is why she is so messed up, and that was Bidithal's own desires there again.

Poliel was trying to save Burn through cleansing her of her disease. I dont see that as evil, I see that as her helping the CG and the world, actually. The CG is unwillingly the cause of Burn's illness, and so Poliel tried to save them both, without the use of Burn's Hammer.

So, my theory, what is the CG? He was the God of Desire of an alien realm. He was dragged to Wu, sent insane by the process. Because he is alien, his presence is poisonous. When he awoke, he found he had a legion of followers, the broken of Wu, but he was powerless, so he reached out and took hold of Chaos, and used it to actually start answering their personal prayers, which is something I suspect most Gods do not do. He is not taking delight in pain, but in a person's joy at accomplishing their goal, no matter how warped. I dont think the CG is evil, just beyond morality really.