[Dancer+]

It would be awesome if it played out like that with Cotillion becoming lord almighty after they abandon the Shadow realm.

[QuickTidal]

You know what, I have been looking at it this way. The CG, feels to me like (bear with me here for the sake of comparison) Zorg in the 5th Element. He acts like the big bad for about half the story or so, but then you realize that he screws up enough that the big bad is actually the big dark evil planet and Zorg himself is merely evil's bumbling sidekick.

That was how I felt at the end of RG, that CG may not be the big bad.

Though, it could also be said that he is so helpless due to his sickness and pain, and having now been constrained by Paran into the Deck's rules as well, that he may just not be great yet at finding the loopholes that other gods of the pantheon have found to manipulate mankind. So it could go either way for me really.

[Thelomen Toblakai]

There's no one bad guy in the books, instead there's a lot of people who you can view as good or bad depending on how you want to look at it.
Like:
Rake - could be viewed as bad for abandoning his followers and fighting the Malazans but then I like him so i prefer to see his good side.
Ruin - Killed a lot of people, almost destroyed Lethras, killed Kettle, but again I like him so I prefer to see his good side. Kept his word to the Azath, kicks Edur as*.

But I do think the Otaral Giants are going to turn around and bite everyone in the as*. I like the idea of the CG's enemy coming, and the Giants are just his forerunners.

Just out of interest how do you chain a God to the world? I imagine it would be quite hard with all that power and everything. :S

[Midnight]

It does seem that the CG is the focal point of the books but I'm not sure about him being the main villian.

To my mind the most important threat is the elder gods (CG is probably one of them, according to BH). There is a quote in BH, something like "so many lives lost, to bury the elder gods once and for all". To me that seems fairly indicative of the elder gods as a major threat. Also, Paran grows to distrust K'rul.

As for Cotillion and Shadowthrone I wouldn't call them villians but I think they are the main characters of the books and everyone else is being manipulated by them

[vilepiglet]

Hi,

sorry to be a late addition but I found your discussion to be one of the more intelligent.

The main thread through these books is chains. All the players are chained to each other somehow and all they seem to do is react including CG. I agree with twilight CG is a main player but not the villain. the villains are the elder gods created from chaos at the same time as Mother Dark and Father Light. In reaction to an active chaos. In RG the most innocous play is B's meeting with Knuckles and Kilman but gives away a lot.

CG is being played as much as he is playing. He was chained as an interloper into the Elders game. He is of a different aspect but not the only interloper. The eres were first and then the Imass. But the KCCM, Forkrul and Jhags are then named as the elder races. Are they then interlopers bringing an older war to this world with CG and the Jade statues. The Moon being a metaphor for another world.

CG is chaos aspected and is poisoning Burn. He is not of this world. he was chained maybe to be an active player in the ongoing war. We also know the KCCM are not gone nor defeated but are north of the AWL (Redmask, his gaurdians and the Shake) Just some musings. I am most likely way off point but thats the feeling i get

[MecnunK]

Dolorous Menhir;197144 said:

If I remember the BH reference to "and on the moon, gardens died," correctly, then those weren't the words of any character but rather a description by the narrator (or whatever you want to the descriptive passages). Which suggests the gardens do actually exist.

Umm it suggests the opposite I think. Gardens dying seemed like a metaphor for hope dying in Sorry/Aspalar. A poetic turn of phrase if you will, sadly lacking in RG. Surely physical gardens wouldnt have died just cause sorry was feeling a bit down (I'll avoid the pun)..and they didnt die there and then at that moment.

[Dolorous Menhir]

MecnunK;199775 said:

Umm it suggests the opposite I think. Gardens dying seemed like a metaphor for hope dying in Sorry/Aspalar. A poetic turn of phrase if you will, sadly lacking in RG. Surely physical gardens wouldnt have died just cause sorry was feeling a bit down (I'll avoid the pun)..and they didnt die there and then at that moment.

It seems like we are talking about different incidents. The "and on the moon, gardens died" quote comes from the scene when the moon has just been totalled by a jade giant. So any gardens there have definitely just been destroyed. The narrator wasn't waxing poetic about Apsalar's feelings, she wasn't among the characters featuring in that scene if I remember correctly.

[MecnunK]

Okay, I only remember the phrase from when Sorry was on a ship travelling somewhere and Cotillion paid her a visit..It was alos narrator stating it not any of the characters.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I think you're right MecnunK, I just looked through BH and couldn't find the quote in the area I expected it to be. Can anyone else provide it?

[Midnight]

Chapter 18, page 660 of the Trade Paperback. "There were clouds closed fast around the moon. And one by one, gardens died." It is when Cotillion is talking to Apsalar on the ship.

[Coldnight]

Midnight;199810 said:

Chapter 18, page 660 of the Trade Paperback. "There were clouds closed fast around the moon. And one by one, gardens died." It is when Cotillion is talking to Apsalar on the ship.

Yes, it was when Cotillion told her that Crokus might be dead. Sorry/Apsalar's dream about gardens of the moon was something thet made Crokus fall in love with her. She was really innocent while sharing this dream with him, so dying gardens = dying innocence, blah, blah... cute.
Nevertheless, I think that "gardens of the moon" must be more than just a metaphor in context of the whole series.

[GRIEF & VENEGEANCE]

Initially I thought that the title "Gardens of the Moon" had to do with Moon's Spawn and the many caverns/places in it where the remaining Tiste Andii lived. But in this thread people mention the KCNR moving to Wu's moon and back. Could it be that they originally built their sky keeps on the moon (or one of Wu's moons)?

In terms of the CG I believe he is a bad guy, but not "THE" bad guy. I suspect that has to do with whatever is threatening the carriage being drawn by the trapped souls within Rake's sword (I think its called Dragnipur?, bit of a blank moment). I think the KCNR are allied to this "BEING" and are returning to Wu as the "BEING" puts his'her final play into motion. I think the CG, through his actions, has been distracting everyone from the real danger to Wu.

For me the important question is when did the Elder Gods come to Wu? The reason I ask this is because Draconus forged the sword Dragnipur for a purpose and that is trap the souls of those that it kills, so that they pull the chains to keep the carriage away from a approaching cloud of madness/chaos? (I can't remember the exact description of the cloud). The reason I say the KCNR are allied to this "BEING" is because their sky keeps are seen to ome out of a cloud of madness/chaos very similar to the one threatening the carriage.

What do you guys think?

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

It would be fantastically brilliant if "Gardens of the Moon" actually referred to events on the moon; not the main plotline of GotM, of course, but if hidden in the tale of Darujhistan was something that we still haven't seen.

[vilepiglet]

The Draconus sub plot (chains once again) reinforces the whole chains thread throught he book but is just a vehicle for ganoes parans ascendancy as well as his link/chain to the hounds.

The hounds of Shadow and Deragoth are integral to the plot. One an aspect of the other. Not sure but the moons, warren of shadow, and the separation of the hounds and deragoth are linked. There is some significance to the Moons and Gardens and Skykeeps I just can't seem to get the pieces together. Also the Imperial Warren somehow links the Moons and Skykeeps.

What am i missing or am i totally on the wrong track

[Lisheo]

No, I think yere all onto something here. The constant references to the moon gardens seem to suggest something nastys happening up there, so maybe someone very nasty indeed is gonna appear, give the CG a right kicking, and then take over the vacated position of Big Bad Guy? Course, thats all pure speculation with very little proof at all, but you never know...

[lobo the wolfman]

Hey guys, long time reader, first time massager......

Just thought I'd add my own theory's to the CG being the main villain of the story. Maybe it's so much the CG as what he represents, bear with me on this.

SE seems to be big on evolution eg KCNR to KCCM, Imass to human, even wandering powers to holds to houses (paran talks about in MOI somewhere) and so on. Maybe just by being there the CG has stopped or slowed the process.
As in old races, powers and ascendants that should have moved on, are getting involved and making things worse. K'rul coming back from chaos, Meal and the Errant getting more active. Live KCCM and KCNR once again being seen when they should be long dead.
Point is, maybe the conflict is less about every one against the CG, but more the old order of things against the new.

Thoughts or comments welcome, just don't feed me to Abyss for being silly. I like my brain where it is thanks :-P

[Lisheo]

Dang you might have a very good point there lobo... Perhaps we're all getting a bit caught up in the whole idea of scary evil supervillain, and forgetting that this is NOT a heroic fantasy series... So really there doesnt have to be anyone lurking behind the scenes. Altho I do still want someone coming down from the Moon to kick the CG senseless!!!!

[lobo the wolfman]

If the CG was a god of love maybe some pissed off ex-lovers will come and get him

[Lisheo]

Maybe. I kinda thought he might be Grallin, you know, the kindly god in the moon mentioned by Apsalar in GotM

[lobo the wolfman]

I think Grallin is more like a local myth or some such