[Gem Windcaster]

Before that part in the book, we get indications that Ruin isn't deterred from his chosen path easily. I don't buy the argument that he suddenly knew that he Edur was gone or what Tehol had done, and decided to withdraw when he was opposed by - supposedly - minor warfare (Hedge and Quick). It's far too convenient. He wasn't there to see what was going on, he was there to slaughter, ftw.

Either Quick and Hedge isn't powerful enough, and couldn't persuade Ruin, or they were powerful enough and did persuade him. You can't have it both ways - that they weren't powerful enough, but still could persuade him (which they obviously did).

Oops, I kinda outwitted myself there. Sorry. :heyhey:

[S Ruin]

how can anyone be arguing that Ruin withdrew because the edur had left

I am speechless - ofcourse he withdrew with his tail tucked btw his legs - Gem you are right.

Did you guys not read something like the the dragons chest was practically reaped out and bleeding - if he had remained there for 5 more seconds he will have been blown apart to piesces. Ruin definitely ran for his life.

I had high hopes for him as well but he is definitely not a rake. Clip confirmed it when he was musing to himself at the end of the book.

Ruin's problem is more to do with naivety - he just does not know enough about the world and its inhabitants.

Do you think rake will will have come that close to a bridge bunner like hedge and fiddler. - he will just have stood at a very far distance and let rip.

Looking at the other draconeans - they all seem to be extremely arrogant and believe that when they are in their dragon form, they cannot be defeated. They dont look like they know shit about sorcery the way rake seems to and I think osseric as well. Those two are a different class for me.

[tiam]

i thought that Ruin was the scapegoat for the whole 'ancient power pales compared to mortals'. He was just beaten down by 2 surprise cussers than blasted by QB who is the EG Grizzin Farl.

Not serious but he might aswell be GF with that power

[Danyah]

Ruin is mad, Soletaken tend to get mad, and he drank deeper than his brother...
So he might well be more powerful than Rake.

He would have accepted godhood, if it was offered.

[fan_83]

S Ruin;189930 said:

how can anyone be arguing that Ruin withdrew because the edur had left

I am speechless - ofcourse he withdrew with his tail tucked btw his legs - Gem you are right.

Did you guys not read something like the the dragons chest was practically reaped out and bleeding - if he had remained there for 5 more seconds he will have been blown apart to piesces. Ruin definitely ran for his life.

I had high hopes for him as well but he is definitely not a rake. Clip confirmed it when he was musing to himself at the end of the book.

Ruin's problem is more to do with naivety - he just does not know enough about the world and its inhabitants.

Do you think rake will will have come that close to a bridge bunner like hedge and fiddler. - he will just have stood at a very far distance and let rip.

Looking at the other draconeans - they all seem to be extremely arrogant and believe that when they are in their dragon form, they cannot be defeated. They dont look like they know shit about sorcery the way rake seems to and I think osseric as well. Those two are a different class for me.

why can;t he jsut withdraw when he couldn;t sense the presence of KE in the city ? i mean what grudge does he have against the malaz and teh inhabitants of letharas?
he is more draconian than rake and thus i preseume highly logical..

his chest is bleeding.. so what?
he got stabbed in teh back and left to rot in an azath for close to 10000 years and hes still walking./..

ruin does know about the world.. the azath let him wander in spirit form remember///

[Gem Windcaster]

fan_83;190032 said:

what grudge does he have against the malaz and teh inhabitants of letharas?

Apparently alot. He was set on killing.

[buddhacat]

fan_83;190032 said:

why can;t he jsut withdraw when he couldn;t sense the presence of KE in the city ? i mean what grudge does he have against the malaz and teh inhabitants of letharas?
he is more draconian than rake and thus i preseume highly logical..

his chest is bleeding.. so what?
he got stabbed in teh back and left to rot in an azath for close to 10000 years and hes still walking./..

ruin does know about the world.. the azath let him wander in spirit form remember///

The Azath has been dead for years. RG is set years in the future, after MT.

He had been hunted by the Edur and Letherii for years. So he wanted to destroy them. Why should he know anything about Malazans in Letheras?

Next, he was hit by 2 cussers. Show me who else has survived direct hits with cussers. (Only the 4 Liosan come to mind. None - zero - humans or Edur or undead Kell hunters or Imass.)

All those who've been saying SR is weaker than QB, how QB would fare against a direct hit with a cusser?

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

Dolorous Menhir;189711 said:

Hard to reconcile with the vision Ruin showed Kettle in MT, of all the FA he'd killed. I don't think Quick Ben could kill those things that easily.

I get the feeling that the trick to beating FA is physical prowess; of which Ruin has plenty and QB has none. Of course, Calm beat the stuffing out of Karsa, but I wonder if that would have been the outcome now that he has developed. Which of course brings to mind the fact that those two have yet to meet again, which is a frightening thought, if off-topic.

[tiam]

now that Karsas gone home it seems likely theyll have a rematch. (On a side not BRILLIANT idea. Teblor Hordes conquer most of genabackis and Calm comes to bring judgement. How many do you reckon she could take down? best scene ever anyway...)

It seems likely thatRuin was Draconic as he mentions in MT that his dragon kin were the only ones powerful enough. It seems the FA suffer from a lack of range that maybe dragons can make use of

[Gem Windcaster]

I think that is proper way to discuss fighting in Wu, tiam. I certainly think it is not a kind of hierarchy, but rather about strenghts and weaknesses in styles of fighting. Some can have more or less of both though. But it certainly seems like nobody is safe from getting his/her ass kicked - not even Gods.

Btw, correct we if I'm wrong, but I thought someone noticed in earlier books somewhere that munitions and warrens were an especially lethal combination.

[S Ruin]

Am I reading a different book from everyone else or what. Is anybody trying to say that Ruin just left the battle scene because the edur had left?

I am trying not to swear here - are you people 10 years old or what.

Ruin was set on murder regardless of who was in letheras. Before Fiddler released the first cusser, the dragon was bearing down on them (i think it was described that the dragon was opening its mouth - probably about to rein down sorcery on them). If he sensed the edur were gone, why did ruin not just fly over the city and be on his way? why was he bearing down on fiddlers crew - yeah he was delivering some takeaway from pizzahut

Also no one is saying QB is stronger than ruin, just that ruin got his ass wooped. Dont get me wrong, I am not saying Ruin is not kick ass - anyone who can survive two cusser blasts as well as sorcery from QB is more than formidable. Its just that he was outmatched - plain and simple.

Some veterans in this forum should set right this argument - Kallor, hetan, monech, jensinrul, abyss - please end this argument

[tiam]

Gem Windcaster;190212 said:

I think that is proper way to discuss fighting in Wu, tiam. I certainly think it is not a kind of hierarchy, but rather about strenghts and weaknesses in styles of fighting. Some can have more or less of both though. But it certainly seems like nobody is safe from getting his/her ass kicked - not even Gods.

Btw, correct we if I'm wrong, but I thought someone noticed in earlier books somewhere that munitions and warrens were an especially lethal combination.

Its just said that Moranth munition explosion are drawn to Warrens but that from GOTM so may not be accurate.

It seems like an odd triangle sorcery beats swordsmanship which beats mages if otateral is in play. Also you can be super powerful (what a retarded expression) and still lose. Its all a question of circumstance. Red Mask could probably beat Brys even though we know hes better with a sword. Simply styles of weapons

[Illuyankas]

Er, dude? Ruin came down to attack Letheras, only to find it occupied by an invading army. His revenge was being done for him, and he could either take out all of them and severely damage himself, probably dying (after the marines and Quick, there's Sinn, the Errant and Mael) in the process, or he could retreat with whatever was left of his dignity.

[Gem Windcaster]

Illuyankas;190236 said:

Er, dude? Ruin came down to attack Letheras, only to find it occupied by an invading army. His revenge was being done for him, and he could either take out all of them and severely damage himself, probably dying (after the marines and Quick, there's Sinn, the Errant and Mael) in the process, or he could retreat with whatever was left of his dignity.

Well dude, there is no actual indications that he actually thought that. Only speculation. The only thing we know is that he flew off "in full retreat". Exact quote. Unless there is some indication that he actually changed his mind about slaughter, then fine I will agree. Until then I will say he got his ass kicked.

[polishgenius]

S Ruin;190233 said:

Some veterans in this forum should set right this argument - Kallor, hetan, monech, jensinrul, abyss - please end this argument

Why would that work? I do agree with you on this particular point, but if I disagreed with them, them being better known on the board won't suddenly make me go 'okay' and expecting that from anyone is churlish.

Can't accuse someone else of being 10 and then ask the big boys to settle the argument.

[Imperial Historian]

Heh, the idea that the opinion of a 'veteran' of the forum is able to settle arguments is amusing, the veterans of this forum get disagreed with just as much as anyone else, and can be wrong as much as anyone else. Chill out, people have the right to disagree, even in the face of overwhelming evidence... brood's probably still sceptical about dassem being traveller despite all the evidence for that theory

Looking at what's written though it seems pretty clear that Silchas Ruin decided to leave, he was outmanoeuvred and hit by a surprise combination of two cussers (which he clearly didn't know about, by his casual attempt to bat it aside (see p885), it's clear he's not familiar with this innovation, just because he's had visions whilst in the azath doesn't mean he knows everything about the world, especially the new weapon a young mortal empire has acquired on the other side of the world, not exactly a development an ascended ancient beyond words dragon would be particularly interested in), from the two most dangerous sappers malaz has ever produced, and a high mage who seems to have found whole new reserves of power to draw on.

Now that's not knocking silchas ruin, anyone would have been in trouble with that combination, especially since two of them alone managed to deal with the three sisters!

Now not knowing the mind of a ascended super-powerful dragon, but it seems sensible that ruin would withdraw, even if it be only a temporary retreat after this beating, he's dragon, he acts on timescales of millennia, the crippled fod was "one task....a minor one, intended to serve little more than his own sense of redressing an egregious imbalance. He knew little of the Crippled God. But what little he knew, Silchas Ruin did not like...", after the beating he'd suffered anyone would sensibly withdraw, and if necessary he can return to deal with the crippled god.

And I'd agree that just because quick ben got the edge on silchas here, does not necessarily mean he's on the same level, the malazans caught silchas with a sucker punch, as they tend to do, but they probably lack the same capacity as ruin and the ancient immortal brigade, for a straight up fight, so they'll always avoid them. There's no strict hierarchy of power, it's all about circumstance, as it is here whereas a tank might generally beat a man, if the situation is highly unfavourable to the tank it's going to get destroyed no matter how powerful it is.

[Gem Windcaster]

Imperial Historian;190301 said:

There's no strict hierarchy of power, it's all about circumstance

Well, duh! My point has been the fact that people want to think that Ruin retreated because he 'changed his mind' suddenly, at the convenient point of some sudden opposition - if Ruin felt he could have taken them down, don't you think he would have? Wouldn't he at least have tried? I'm not saying he won't come back another day, just that he was beaten down to a retreat, and not because of some 'whim' on his part.

[Skywalker]

One of the recurring devices SE has used in the series has been how ancient power meets new power and is humbled...

Think back to the Trolbarahl meeting that marine... the Deragoth vs Karsa... the Toblakai/ Jheck gods vs Iron Bars, Scabandari himself underestimating Wu in the aftermath of the betrayal, and several more.

Ruin vs the Bonehunters to me was one of those. He got whooped, no question... the Moranth munitions were alien to him, and he 'lived to fight another day'...

[Thelomen Toblerone]

The thing is with Silchas is that he was buried for god knows how long, so had no idea how far others had come. When he did emerge from the Azath, he saw only the Letherii and Edur who pursued him and the others on their way to the gate, who were pretty much at the same level they always were (look at how the Malazans destroyed them).

Their only imrovement was in their magic, and that was clearly from the CG, which Ruin recognised, so it wasnt even new to him.

Thus, when he got to dish out revenge on Letheras, he had absolutely no idea that anyone was even able to do what they did to him. Overconfidence brought him down, but he still survived.

I think next time he'll be more prepared and nowhere near so easy to drive off. Look at Rake, who is pretty much his equal in terms of power. Rake progressed with time, was aware of what was the Malazans et al were capable of, and so remains able to deal with it and is hugely powerful as always.

Ruin will be back, bigger, stronger and badder than ever in the books to come, mark my words.

[pat5150]

In RG we learned how "smart" Silchas Ruin is. This Tiste Andii knows when the day is lost and when it's time to take a step back.

I mean, the guy took Scabandari Bloodeye's knives in the back willingly, aware that the Elder Gods that were on their way would likely kill him. So, after destroying a powerful K'Chain Che'Malle army, realizing that he was outmatched, he elected to be betrayed and spent millennia trapped inside the Azath in order to live another day.

Seemingly all-powerful, it dawned upon him that Moranth munitions and an unexpected display of potent sorcery were too much for him. Hence his decision to turn back.

But something tells me that Silchas Ruin will not suffer this indignity lightly. He may want to "discuss" this with Quick Ben and the others in the future.

Patrick