[S Ruin]

As Kallor said - sing me the abyss.

Ofcourse me implying that the veterans come and comment does not mean they are always right. I just wanted people who are known to be SE experts to comment. I am as liberal as they come - everyone is entitled to their opinion but it is hard to see people actually thinking that ruin left because he changed his mind or the edur were not in town. Its like someone telling you one plus one is three - I was just really perplexed that anyone could have read a scene that was so blatantly obvious and shape it into another context.

as they say - one mans meat is another man's poison

[pippin]

Thelomen Toblerone;190318 said:

I think next time he'll be more prepared and nowhere near so easy to drive off. Look at Rake, who is pretty much his equal in terms of power. Rake progressed with time, was aware of what was the Malazans et al were capable of, and so remains able to deal with it and is hugely powerful as always.

Ruin will be back, bigger, stronger and badder than ever in the books to come, mark my words.

The fact that Silchas opted for the "knives in the back" tells quite a lot about his power. He did not want to face two elder gods with Scabandari. Mael and Kilmandaros are according to Silchas too much to handle; out of his league probably or he would have fled or fought them.

On another note: we also know that a backstabbing Kilmandaros is not up to the task of eliminating Rake.

Clip also thinks Rake is clearly Ruin's superior in power.

All in all, I think that Rake is hand's down the most powerful of the brothers. I do think that Dragnipur would be better off in the hands of Ruin; he is wrath where Rake is justice.

[jayisspecial]

I think Silchas left a pretty nice impression. He was caught by surprise, hit with two cussers, and he could still fly around and probably eat those marines. Then he gets hammered by what appears to be an ascended high mage. Again. and Again. and Again. Then he flies off. He didn't know what the hell was going down and if I were him I'd fly out of there too.

He wasn't dying, he stood up to what would have torn most ascended and soletaken down. It did take 3 down. Not Silchas.

I think the key is the part about not being his brother. Rake isn't just powerful, he's smart, and willing to die to succeed. I don't think he would have flown off in retreat. Silchas turned tail and ran. Not his brother.

[fan_83]

i beg to disagree.. i know that ruin got his ass whopped.. but that does not mean hes out..

lets reexamine his motivation for flying to letharas..
was it to go after the malaz?
was it to go after the letharas?
was it to go after the edur?

please answer the following 3 questions and you would see where my theory is coming from..

without his target there to fight, theres no reason to fight

[Agraba]

How can he know that there's no Edur? He was there for two seconds; does he have some super-vision that views the whole city in that short time?

If those marines weren't there, he would have done a thorough search, which would take over half a day (it's a big city).

Face it you hardcore Silchas Ruin fans, he was bested by two marines and a squad mage; he's a weak shit compared to what you thought he was. Even the guy that named himself after SR can see that.

[fan_83]

Agraba;191263 said:

How can he know that there's no Edur? He was there for two seconds; does he have some super-vision that views the whole city in that short time?

If those marines weren't there, he would have done a thorough search, which would take over half a day (it's a big city).

Face it you hardcore Silchas Ruin fans, he was bested by two marines and a squad mage; he's a weak shit compared to what you thought he was. Even the guy that named himself after SR can see that.

gee and the fact htat hes a mage doesn;t count.. that he couldn;t extend his senses to find the presense of the edur?
i mean of course he would have to circle the city a couple of hundred times using his lousy draconian eyesight to see street to street and after that he could have to demolish every single structure in letharas to ensure no edur is hiding in any buildings...

yeah.. silchas really sucks

[Dark Mac]

You really overestimating the power of dragons, fan_83.

And Silchas was there to destroy Letherii, yes. He specifically states that at one point in his PoV.

[One of the Three]

Quote

The fact that Silchas opted for the "knives in the back" tells quite a lot about his power. He did not want to face two elder gods with Scabandari. Mael and Kilmandaros are according to Silchas too much to handle; out of his league probably or he would have fled or fought them.

On another note: we also know that a backstabbing Kilmandaros is not up to the task of eliminating Rake.

Clip also thinks Rake is clearly Ruin's superior in power.

All in all, I think that Rake is hand's down the most powerful of the brothers. I do think that Dragnipur would be better off in the hands of Ruin; he is wrath where Rake is justice.

First of all hello to everyone. I'm yet another long-time lurker of the forums who finally got around to registering (says a lot about how lazy I am that it's taken me so long I guess).

On topic, I would just like to re-iterate what I'm sure has already been said before in a previous thread; namely the fact that Silchas Ruin deciding to allow Scabandari to stab him in the back thereby granting him santuary from the avenging Elder Gods is indicative of Silchas' intelligence and ability to take the longer draconean view on matters on Wu.

It should not be taken to mean that Ruin would ordinarily be incapeable of challenging Kilmandaros, for example, in the manner that it is intimated Rake was able to. After all, it should be remembered that by this stage of the battle Ruin had already suffered significant injuries, is unarmed having broken both his twin swords and was in all probability exhausted (both magically and physically) form his prolonged battles with the Kell Hunters and a possibly a Matron or two.

I think when one considers these additional factors it is not such a simple matter to gauge Ruin's power relative to that of his brother.

To me it seems that as with all things in SE books, it is simply a matter of circumstances.

[mercykiller]

I don't think Silchas is weak, one of the earlier books (GoTM possibly) indicated that moranth munitions interfere with the natural order including the the patterns that underly magic. This makes them especially efficacious against magic wielders. I can't remember the exact quote. The moranth munitions were created to counter sorcery so countered silchas' magic protection, leaving his glorified lizard body exposed. Most dragon strength seems to come from the warrens they channel not their physical prowess.

None of this explains how Quick is suddenly able to toast his three sisters. Hedge unleashed his cussers afterwards in that battle.

[airheadgreg]

Well annoyed that i am at being called a 10 year old I shall stomp around for a while...

I doubt our big and scaled friend just decided to leave because of no Edur around, and i doubt he got his ass kicked. Sure i think Hedge and Quick did some serious damage but Ruin isn't stupid and as many people have said he had flown off to fight another day, so when you have something explode on you (something you've never encountered or even heard of) you're going to be slightly confused.

Quick also did a good bit of damage to the three daughters of shadow showing that he has some hidden strength, which he then uses on Ruin.

And now looking at a long shot, well all know Quick has more than the one person hidden within him, and who's to say that after he took those from the desert into him he stop collecting souls. As far as we know he could have someone more powerful there, someone powerful enough to kick an elient in the arse. And this would link vaguely with the fact that Kettle has FA inside of her, maybe Quick has a beasty hidden away? ((Yet again my idea's become confusing...))

But back to the point, i don't think Ruin would just turn tail and run without good reason and i don't think Quick being there or the lack of Edur are good enough reasons. One could be a reason, SE has a knack for inciting arguments and then having an answer that makes no sense to anyone.

-Greg

[Lisheo]

He was fairly weak alright...but i suppose hed never have witnessed anything other than Elder magic,so perhaps the 'new' warrens just threw him off balance...yeah I cant see him beating the matrons without help to be honest.

[Blacksox]

Lisheo;191704 said:

He was fairly weak alright...but i suppose hed never have witnessed anything other than Elder magic,so perhaps the 'new' warrens just threw him off balance...yeah I cant see him beating the matrons without help to be honest.

His weapons may have been invested to kill martrons. But I would guess a Matron death cry would be atleast as destructive as a cusser.

[Lisheo]

Yeah,hed have taken quite a beating from that,at the very least.

[Gem Windcaster]

He got he ass whopped, end of story. (yes this is starting to become a yes-no kinda argument. Gotta love those.) :heyhey: Read my previous posts for more arguments.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Ruin was shown to lack modern knowledge earlier in the book - for example he had no idea what Mockra was. So I like the idea that the Moranth munitions caught him off guard and he bailed.

It's probably another Raest situation - ancient power returns to find it is outclassed. This does not apply to Rake since he has been active and in the thick of things the entire time. He has over 300,000 years of experience that Ruin lacks, and I think that's a very important point when considering power levels.

[polishgenius]

Blacksox;191706 said:

His weapons may have been invested to kill martrons. But I would guess a Matron death cry would be atleast as destructive as a cusser.

We have no idea what a Matron death cry does. My memory on this is hazy, but iirc, it was one or some of those that sealed off Mother Dark or something (was it MD?) - powerful, yes, but since that happened before the majority of what we know of the world's history, it didn't exactly help them in the fight at hand, did it?

[Blacksox]

polishgenius;191865 said:

We have no idea what a Matron death cry does. My memory on this is hazy, but iirc, it was one or some of those that sealed off Mother Dark or something (was it MD?) - powerful, yes, but since that happened before the majority of what we know of the world's history, it didn't exactly help them in the fight at hand, did it?

Have you read RG? There is a passage that talks about how the short-tails always whip the regular K-chain but nobody ever wins because the matrons use their death cry and destroy both sides win they lose. Kind of sounds like some kind of nuke to me.

[polishgenius]

Fair enough, I missed that passage.

Edit, just had a thought - that has curious parallels with Kallor's empire, no? And we suspect that he was using KCCM machinery anyway... just a thought.

[caladanbrood]

Imperial Historian;190301 said:

brood's probably still sceptical about dassem being traveller despite all the evidence for that theory

Grrrrrrrrrr:p

[Abyss]

Yes, yes, yes, but Wolverine would have kicked both their asses.


THAT SAID, My theory is that having been denied his 'proper' vengeance v Scabby, Ruin was looking to take it all out on someone. Leth and the CG were an easy target that weren't so easy once the Malazans got in the way. Plus Trull had already given him a half-decent beating.

The truly interesting developments with Ruin are being totally overlooked in favour of whether or not he could survive two cussers and a QB ass smacking - look, he DID, discussion over....

1: Udinaas' theory that Rake, Ruin and Darist weren't as unique as the legends said they were. I think that the notion that 'three sons of mommy D' was a pure fabrication was a fascinating idea. We know SE likes to play with legends being created from whole cloth, and here he raises the idea when Udi' taunts Silch.

2: In spite of being nice to Kettle in MT, Silch went ahead and killed her. Seriously, how cold IS this guy? He had a deal with the Azath, and i'm wondering whether his stories to her in the visions in MT were just a complex way of negotiating with the dying Azath to carry its seed to the Refugim - ie: The FA had to die and he had to kill them, and so Kettle had to die... Even Silch's apparent heroic rescue of Udi and Kettle is put in question since he obviously needed her for the end game. That said, when she mentions being raped, he goes and eats the slavers. Talk about contradictions...

3: Back in the day, he was negotiating with the K'chain Nah'ruk. Let me restate this for clarity:

Silchas Ruin.

Was shaking hands (claws).

WITH THE FRIKKIN SHORT-TAILS.

HelloooOOooooo.....


- Abyss, notes there are more interesting things than a 'ho'd win'... and anyways, Wolverine ftw. so there.