[Shield Anvil]

Abyss said:

Back in his Tyrant days, he set up a warrior society to provide him with soldiers, and a group of mages as his chancellors or what have you. And the traditions outlasted him, to become the Seguleh and the Cabal.
.

You've got some really good ideas there. And it fits from another perspective: Seguleh = Imass descendants. I think someone said that the Seguleh were humans but for me they seemed a little to über..

[Morgoth]

I dont think so. This would imply Darjuhistan to have stood in one form or the other for more than... 400.000 years? I cannot believe anything would survie for so long. Not a city and definitly not a social structure, no matter how rigid. Remember SE's profession, he knows how history works, and I do very much he would make a blunder of that magnitude.

[Abyss]

Actually, Morgoth, everything that was said about Y'ghatan's history would suggest i'm right. Plus i'm not saying anything survived in its original form.

- Abyss, original sinner.

[Morgoth]

ah but not even Y'Ghatan is said to be from the time before the imass ritual, is it? Sure, it can have stood in one form of the other, but hundreds of thousands of years? If i remember wrong then I humbly bow myself before your wisdom, abyss

though, Disregarding the whole time factor, Raest did not strike me as the kind of character using humans to help him. Creating the seguleh, and for that matter, the mages just seems very out of character. + Wasn't it said in GotM that Darjuhistan and the areas around it had been taken controll of by a tyrant that eventually was dethroned by Icarium? Or is my memory going haywire again?

[Urko Crust]

some of the cities in 7c are in the same places since the first empire, but it is stated that darujistan was born on a rumour not rebuilt or repopulated on a rumour. it also says that the original inhabitants were a savage migrant population

[Abyss]

'it is said'. It's also said that Scabby Bloodeye is 'father shadow', the glorious originator of all things Edur and daddy of three wonderful daughters.

- Abyss, it is said, eats brainz.

[Urko Crust]

Good point. so what you are saying is that there was a city where daru was and it was ruled by Raest who created the segulah and the torrud cabal?
i find this unlikely. also i think, i may be wrong, that there has only been 1 segulah 1st, he would be old!!!!
I think there was another tyrant, probably human, who ruled the city that was born on the rumour of raests barrow

[Set'alahd Crool]

We know darujhistan isn't built on another city - it was built on huge gas-filled caverns. Caverns discovered by the people digging holes hoping to find Raest's barrow.

Sorry 'byss, but I don't buy this one.

[Abyss]

Sure, but BELOW those caverns... oh, wait, nevermind. Suffice it to say, i think there's the possibility the city's history goes back to when Raest was causing trouble, but far from certain.

- Abyss, full of hot air.

[Imperial Historian]

I think the msot convincing evidence RE: Raest not being the original tyrant and the t'orrud cabal being set up to oppose him is the fact that during the entire encounter with Raest it isn't mentioned at all, and something that major you would have expected something to have been mentioned.

However there have been mentions of other tyrants, the tyrant kings mentioned in mammots history, so logically it is more likely to be one of these as the Tyrants and not someone else.

And some more evidence that it is not Raest... is that Baruk and the T'orrud Cabal don't seem to be that old, when Rake and Baruk speak of Icarium Rake says 1000 years is not such a long time... while Baruk says it was delivered by a visitor over a milenia ago, hes definititely not speaking from personal experience, so I can't see the events leading to the removal of the tyrant and the seguleh from darjhustan being to long ago....

[Dolorous Menhir]

So, are the names that the Soldier mentions perhaps ceremonial or familial names, and so the Baruk, Mammot & Derudan that we met in GotM are only the current "holders" of those names rather than near-immortals who've existed for all of Darujhistan history.

We had a lot of Baruk's POV in GotM, he certainly didn't seem like an extremely-long lived person, even his thoughts didn't suggest first-hand old knowledge or extreme age. I think someone who'd lived for tens, maybe even hundreds of thousands of years would've been much less afraid of Rake. It would also make it hard to maintain their public personas if they never died.

Perhaps the fact that the Soldier gives more complex archaic forms of the names is evidence that as they have passed from person to person, and so become simplified (corrupted) over time into the more compact forms from GotM. Or the contractions used in GotM are just less formal, like Anomander Rake instead of Anomandaris Dragnipurake, and they are the same people throughout time...

[GingerBreadMan]

If I had to pick between their names being ceremonial or the members being ancient I would go with their names being ceremonial. As far as the Tyrant in question, I dont believe it was Raest, if it was they cabal would likely have known his location and attempted to kill him/put him in the Azath or if they were his supporters rescued him. I think Raest predates the tyrant in question by a couple hundred thousand years. Compare the power of the Imass to the Cabal/Seguleh, seems doubtful they would have the same enemy. Raest would have slaughtered the Cabal and the Seguleh, and surely the Cabal would have known that considering the power it took to put Raest away.

[Cause]

i think the strongest argument that they are not near immortal mages is just how weak they seemed even when under life threatening situations. They may have been hiding their power but if came to revalation or death I dont dont they would have unleashed.

I think this is perhaps the greatest little nugget of info given to us

[Abyss]

Heh, i still think that scene was a total nod to the fan'atics here on the forum, after all our endeless speculating on Skinner and the Seguleh Second.

It had almost nothing to do with the story at large. Altho' it did prompt Cutter to return to Darujhistan, so maybe there is a bigger picture.

- Abyss, won't speculate on the many, many uses of the phrase 'By the Abyss!'.

[tiam]

i actually beleive that baruk and mamot are not secretly million year old mages however rake has read mammots histories. although a comment in passing rake would have surley met a feww more prodigous authors in his massive life time. also (although considered GOTMISM) tatersail was 219 and calot was 100. calot was 100 and wasnt even tha powerful (really powerful i mean) tatersail was a good high mag and hasd loived ages so baruk and by extension the cabal may be older than we all think.

[Dolorous Menhir]

No offence tiam, but do you type with your eyes closed or are you just illiterate?

As for age of mages, when we talk about mage lifespans it is on the timescale of 100's of years, whereas Darujhistan has existed for at least tens of thousands of years. No matter how much a mage's lifetime is extended by, I don't think it would become as long as that without just tipping into immortality. And I don't believe Baruk and Mammot were immortals/ascendants.

Also, it would be bizarre for Baruk to be as old as the city and still remain just a provincial mage rather than ascending or doing something else of note.

If that is the case, then the Tyrant must be a truly fearsome individual to make his/its opponents keep their heads down for so long.

[tiam]

as for my illiterate spelling ill have you know i am a very poor typer with other things to do than check every last detail of my posts. as far as i am concerned i know the books inside out (the first 4 neway) therefore that gives me the right to post my opinions. i dont care whether ne1 thinks if i can write effectively using GPS. as long as evryone understands the guist of my theories and other such opinions can keep posting.

As for the actual post i was merley sating that the mages thatare in the cabal could be slightlly older than we think they are.

Also darujhistan is only 2000 years old.

[Dolorous Menhir]

How do you know it's only 2000 years old? Raest has been imprisoned for much much longer than that and presumably the rumours of his barrow have been whispered for just as long. Was there a date in GotM giving the age of the city?

[tiam]

TBH i cant remember were i got that from but im fairly sure it was in GOTM. havent got a copy but if ne1 can look it up?