[Briar King]

And I believe it’s already green lit for 5 seasons to. I do feel for the die hards of Tolkien on this one after seeing eps 1-2. I don’t have very much hope that eps 3-8 will make it right. But yeah basing this off a hundred pages with no rights for other stuff isn’t to good. Imo anyways

[Cause]

Before I forget, the swords the elves carry? The hilt is a four handed? Seems oversized compared to even the biggest swords that I can think of historically. Am I wrong or are they just weirdly proportionate?

[Traveller]

I love all the original material.

I still enjoyed this, ok I'd had a drink or two but we sat and decided we weren't going to nitpick and just go with it. Quite fed up with all the 'fan' backlash for projects like this, Star wars, Sandman etc. The source material is all still right there, if you don't like it, walk away.

I'll keep watching, it can never be as bad as those godawful Hobbit movies.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 04 September 2022 - 06:27 PM

[amphibian]

Watched the first episode.

This show comes off really Mormon with some diversity in a way that's probably going to make it hard for the show to become a big hit organically. Cheek touching, forbidden from fucking bc propriety, a rapture event, all the elf dudes are non threatening twigs worse than Orlando Bloom ever was even with the palace intrigue stuff, the Galadriel actor is quite good, the hobbit actors are better, the dialogue is too stilted everywhere.

A dragon tossing a flaming giant eagle into a mass of thousands of elves fighting thousands of orcs shouldn't be boring, yet it mostly is. The combat/action is weightless.

Starting with the elves was a bad idea. Shoulda moved first with the hobbits.

Gorgeous views, fairly decent CGI, good production design and costumes. Too much sword unsheathing or sheathing noises.

There's potential to get better, but they've gotta find better hooks into the elves palace intrigue than the too stiff Elrond.

[stone monkey]

Traveller, on 04 September 2022 - 05:49 PM, said:

Quite fed up with all the 'fan' backlash for projects like this, Star wars, Sandman etc. The source material is all still right there, if you don't like it, walk away.

The fan backlash I was aware of was a bunch of white people (guys I would expect) who saw their arses because these shows actually had the nerve to have brown and black people in them or... heaven forfend... women!!!

I'm all for adaptations that wander away from the original material when they work as pieces in their own right. This one, I would argue, doesn't. It wants to have its cake and eat it. And I don't think it suceeds for precisely that reason. It takes too many liberties for the hardcore fans and doesn't have the nerve to go off on its own to tell its own stories in the world and be judged on its own merits.
Minor spoilers to follow (for the show, and a 30+ year old book) and I can't be bothered tagging:

I mentioned before that I kind of wished that it had stolen the riff from Guy Kay about the sea serpent eating all the elves that went west, first luring them to their doom with a song stolen from those it had devoured; having been set there as a particularly nasty revenge by their adversary. If Sauron had been up to similar things, that would be the kind of interesting storytelling that they should have gone with, rather than merely shoving it in as window dressing because there's an offhand mention of sea serpents in the bits of lore they're actually allowed to use.
Macros is correct (and should probably note the date and time of me actually agreeing with him ): they really should have got the rights to The Silmarillion - it's not like money was an object - because a} it takes place over a lesser period, and hence less compression, and b} that story is absolutely full of the compelling and disastrous events that would keep an audience glued to their seats and coming back every week.

This post has been edited by stone monkey: 05 September 2022 - 05:31 PM

[amphibian]

Second episode was a massive improvement.

I suspect this first episode of the show's writers/directors just can't handle a bunch of elves talking and the elven nobility actors can't elevate the material much.

[Gwynn ap Nudd]

I thought it wasn't bad. Not fantastic so far, but willing to give it a few more episodes. Note, I haven't read any of Tolkien's writings in at least 25 years, so won't be bothered by changes as much as others.

I did find the acting in many of the smaller roles wooden/stilted. Hopefully that improves.

Tolkien's estate is not willing to sell the right to The Silmarillion. It's wasn't a question of Amazon not being willing to pay enough, it just isn't for sale. Same with the comments about the sea serpent, Amazon is not permitted to make those sorts of changes.

[Macros]

I feel like the Tolkien estate is crippling it's legacy by holding onto those rights for this project then. Like budget and production wise this had the potential to be great.
So far it's a bit of a confused mess that doesn't really know what it is yet.

Lack of Silmarion content really robs the Narrative of depth and drive. Like the stone monkey says, have the balls to go totally native on the story front if you can't get the good stuff from the books

[worry]

I agree that the Tolkien estate are way too, uh, precious about letting people adapt the Silmarillion. Give Kevin Smith a shot at translating "Snoochie Boochies" into Quenya, who cares.


That said, I don't think having the rights would mean much to this particular show, which in my view has a relatively (and blessedly) narrow focus already -- the return of Sauron, the forging & distribution of the rings, the fall of Numenor, the encroachment of Orcs etc. on Middle Earth, and the creation of Mordor -- basically it'll be the catalogue of ignored warnings, moral compromises, and failures of leadership heading up to the prologue of Fellowship (the movie). I guess added lore would be cool, but this way it'll preserve nerds' ability to extrapolate on how Sauron's not even the real big bad without the show stealing their thunder. Just any excuse to nerdsplain about Morgoth, that's all they really want.

[Macros]

Morgoth being the big bad is kind of ruined by our own Morgoth being such and unthreatening failed viking

[Tiste Simeon]

Macros, on 05 September 2022 - 10:55 AM, said:

Morgoth being the big bad is kind of ruined by our own Morgoth being such and unthreatening failed viking

This is definitely the main failure of the show, you are correct.

[Tsundoku]

I dunno, his overwhelming Kamehameha Maritime Law attack deals out some damage.

[amphibian]

I agree that getting the Silmarillion is extraneous to the series at hand. I do want them to not make it boring or too Mormon though. These love stories and seductions need heat to work, not a longing look and lots of tut tutting in Quenya.

[worry]

Agree. The elves are gonna be a problem unless or until they are given some entryway into more worldly behavior and concerns. Which is very possible, there are certainly workable plotting and thematic reasons to start them off this way and give them an arc that meets everyone else where they are. But the sooner the better. These folks are centuries (or millennia) old and should act like they've lived it. One of the smartest things SE ever did was let you know early and often that the Tiste loved to boink.

[Cause]

Macros, on 05 September 2022 - 10:55 AM, said:

Morgoth being the big bad is kind of ruined by our own Morgoth being such and unthreatening failed viking

Failed Viking?

He is a lawyer, he has perfected the art of pillaging.

This post has been edited by Cause: 06 September 2022 - 02:16 AM

[Gwynn ap Nudd]

So, I was reading a review comparing the House of the Dragon to Rings of Power, and this was in the review.

"It’s not entirely fair to compare J.R.R. Tolkien to George R.R. Martin, who is often referred to as “the American Tolkien.”"

GRRM being called the American Tolkien has never actually happened right? I mean by someone who wasn't smoking something funky.

[Macros]

Possibly by yet another American clawing to attach some veneer of culture to the great McNation

[Tsundoku]

Wasn't it Oscar Wilde who said something along the lines of America being the only society in history to go from barbarism to decadence without civilisation in between?

[QuickTidal]

Gwynn ap Nudd, on 06 September 2022 - 05:59 AM, said:

So, I was reading a review comparing the House of the Dragon to Rings of Power, and this was in the review.

"It’s not entirely fair to compare J.R.R. Tolkien to George R.R. Martin, who is often referred to as “the American Tolkien.”"

GRRM being called the American Tolkien has never actually happened right? I mean by someone who wasn't smoking something funky.

It's very much something that was coined back at the height of the ASOIAF books as I heard it often. Almost certainly just a marketing term from his publisher that was slapped onto his books.

[QuickTidal]

Wife fell asleep in Episode 2 as well...and I nearly did too.


It's gorgeous....and it LOOKS the part of the prequel to the LOTR movies that they seem to want it to be, but I still have issues...

Are we all in agreement that meteor man is

Spoiler

Gandalf in some early middle earth raiment? I know the Istari technically don't show up till the 3rd Age, but the Maiar that is Gandalf showed up (usually with Nienna) before that in the 1st and likely 2nd age too in "human clothes"...and having him interact with the Hobbit pre-cursors like this will absolutely feed the reasons why Gandalf has such a strong bond with them in the 3rd Age.

There might be a case to be made that it's

Spoiler

Sauron....but I don't see them doing the whole fantasy plot line of "I don't know who I am yet, so I'll be good until I remember I'm Morgoth's lieutenant and turn evil, haha surprised you!" trope....but I suppose it's feasible

But I would find that lacklustre.

I still love the Harfoot storyline best...like by a long stretch.

Elrond and Celebrimbor's discussion mentioning Fëanor and the Silmarils only makes me more annoyed that they can't dive into it much...there's so much meat there that INFORMS the rings of power that came before that they can't touch. So it still feels missing.

The visit to Khazad-Um was nice, and I liked seeing it at its height like that.


I dunno, this show needs to be a bit pacier if it's going to stand on it's own and not rest on nostalgia from the fans of the movies to propel it forward.

I like it, but if the first two eps set a Tolkien-fan and a non-Tolkien fan asleep in the same household....something needs to click.