[stone monkey]

 Cause, on 27 September 2022 - 09:10 PM, said:

I seem to recall Elves killing balrogs like it was nothing in the first age. It was a power scale shenanigan worthy of Malazan. Yes they were first age elven lords but there were several f those still around in the 3rd age too.

And Galadriel is one of those elves. Her uncle was Fingolfin ffs! (aka the guy who went one-on-one with Morgoth, held his own for a while, and eventually maimed him with his dying stroke). She was at the Fall of Gondolin. No-one,from a strictly textual point of view, should have any problems with her being a warrior, as I would expect that everyone had to fight at some time during the First Age, because shit was wild. And she survived.

She should be terrifying. Practically Death Incarnate to lesser beings. There really shouldn't be anything below the level of the Maiar that is even able to live with her in battle. But she's just not.

This post has been edited by stone monkey: 27 September 2022 - 09:57 PM

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

 stone monkey, on 27 September 2022 - 09:55 PM, said:

 Cause, on 27 September 2022 - 09:10 PM, said:

I seem to recall Elves killing balrogs like it was nothing in the first age. It was a power scale shenanigan worthy of Malazan. Yes they were first age elven lords but there were several f those still around in the 3rd age too.

And Galadriel is one of those elves. Her uncle was Fingolfin ffs! (aka the guy who went one-on-one with Morgoth, held his own for a while, and eventually maimed him with his dying stroke). She was at the Fall of Gondolin. No-one,from a strictly textual point of view, should have any problems with her being a warrior, as I would expect that everyone had to fight at some time during the First Age, because shit was wild. And she survived.

She should be terrifying. Practically Death Incarnate to lesser beings. There really shouldn't be anything below the level of the Maiar that is even able to live with her in battle. But she's just not.

This this this!

Galadriel as a warrior isn't the issue at all. It's the fact they've stripped her of all her power and basically all her recognisable character. It isn't waved about much in the text, but in the time of LOTR she's one of the most powerful beings remaining in Middle Earth. Even the Hobbit films got that wrong - showing the raizing of Dol Guldur as taking all her strength even with the help of Elrond, Saruman etc? Nah, in the books she single-handedly casts Sauron out and destroys the place - and probably sat down with a cup of tea to admire her handiwork having not broken so much as a sweat.

The Elves who dwelt in Valinor during the Time of the Trees (which she did - she's in Middle Earth because she wenti into exile with the majority of the Noldor) are 200% serious business. It was a fun scene, but there's not a chance any of those boys in Numenor should have been able to get near her.

Anyway, episode 5:

The casting of Elendil is the single best thing about the show, I love him. Isildur's story has been a lot of nothing to end up on that ship. I like the actress playing Tar-Miriel, but as much as I had high hopes for Pharazon as a political schemer his scenes didn't land with me at all. Does anyone know what the point of Isildur's sister is? Halbrand seems to exist to just flip flop on every decision he makes - what was the point of the thread of him getting a placei in the guild if he was going to sail off an episode later?

Really enjoyed Durin and Elrond this episode - the whole thing about the table genuinely made me laugh and I'm buying into their bond much more now.

The mithril and Silmarils thing is meh. As far as I know there's no real origin story for mithril, it's just super rare and only found in Khazad-Dum so by the time it's become Moria any remaining mithril is priceless because there's no way of obtaining more. The withering by spring thing just made me roll my eyes. I don't know where that thread is going (except perhaps giving further motivation for them to take Annatar's gifts at face value) and I don't care.

Still don't care about Bronwyn and Arondir. Mr Not a Blacksmith and I have been amusing ourselves by staring intently at each other in silence and then asking does the other feel loved and romanced yet? Because that's apparently all this show has to convince us they're into each other. Adar is played well but other than making it very clear he's not Sauron he seems to be another thread that's just dragging.

I've really enjoyed the Harfoots throughout but I'm getting tired of them going back and forth on Meteor Man. It was good to see him speak, but the constant to and fro of whether he's good or evil feels like it's going in repeating circles because the writing and pacing are so poor.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 28 September 2022 - 06:14 AM

[worry]

 Tiste Simeon, on 26 September 2022 - 09:58 PM, said:

Galadriel is actually Sauron.

[Tiste Simeon]

 Renewed For 2 More Seasons, on 28 September 2022 - 06:34 AM, said:

 Tiste Simeon, on 26 September 2022 - 09:58 PM, said:

Galadriel is actually Sauron.

I've not ruled out it yet!

Also,

Quote

Still don't care about Bronwyn and Arondir. Mr Not a Blacksmith and I have been amusing ourselves by staring intently at each other in silence and then asking does the other feel loved and romanced yet?

Has it suddenly got hot where anybody else is??

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'“What is this, famine cosplay?” asked [...] in the Irish Times after glimpsing the harfoots wandering around [...] far from the only person to object to these “simpleton proto-hobbits”, [...] “rosy of cheek, slathered in muck, wearing twigs in their hair and speaking in stage-Irish accents that make the cast of Wild Mountain Thyme sound like Daniel Day-Lewis”.

[...] considering Amazon’s commitment to that welcome diversification [...] that no one in production stopped to consider that Irish people might be upset by the harfoots is especially baffling.

[...] “What we’re worried about is that there’s an ‘accent’ that is identified globally as ‘Irish’ that somehow still means ‘primitive’. Since we’ve heard hobbits speak in Peter Jackson movies [without Irish accents], the vague assumption is inculcated that once upon a time the shaggy itinerant harfoots were Irish but they had evolved past that by the Third Age.”

[...] results of linguistic attitude surveys have barely changed in 60 years, with RP rating consistently high in status, power and intelligence, but low in solidarity, trustworthiness and likability – the three traits Scottish, Irish and north-east English accents have in abundance. “That’s why so many call centres move to those areas,” Braber says. “You call customer services with a complaint, get a lovely Scottish accent and it calms you down.”

[...] The real world is one thing, but fantasy is … well, fantasy. The genre should be above reinforcing these harmful tropes.

[...] “To mock that, or to use that accent as shorthand for someone who is stupid, or whatever trait it is, is offensive. Irish people have faced discrimination for centuries based on their identity, so I’m not surprised this has caused upset.”

[...] “There’s no act that makes it illegal to discriminate against an accent in the same way that it is with age, race, gender or sexuality. That will change very soon, I’m sure of it. For now, it remains immoral, but not illegal.”'

‘Irish people have faced centuries of discrimination’: why are Lord of the Rings’ accents so offensively bad?

[QuickTidal]

Quote

“What we’re worried about is that there’s an ‘accent’ that is identified globally as ‘Irish’ that somehow still means ‘primitive’.

Holy fuck, that's one of the dumbest things I've ever read. We're gatekeeping the accents now?

Hey, these fictional halflings in a fantasy universe speak in an Irish accent and that offends me in the real world...apparently.

I mean, they needed to pick uniform accent for such a small group of migrating halflings. It's not like they were a settled people with villages or cities where regional accents would be a thing...

Also, the "covered in muck, and bits of plants" and whatnot is intentional on the Harfoots part. It's how they stay low and unseen by the bigger more threatening races in Middle Earth...I mean this is VERY clear to anyone who watched the show that they were doing that for a purpose...they are not poor. For all intents and purposes they seem to live pretty normal and enjoyable lives.

And if the writer thinks that people who watch RoP are going to see the Harfoots, and associate their Irish accents with "primitiveness"...then not all his dogs are barking.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 28 September 2022 - 03:30 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

 QuickTidal, on 28 September 2022 - 03:29 PM, said:

Quote

"What we're worried about is that there's an 'accent' that is identified globally as 'Irish' that somehow still means 'primitive'.

Holy fuck, that's one of the dumbest things I've ever read. We're gatekeeping the accents now?

Hey, these fictional halflings in a fantasy universe speak in an Irish accent and that offends me in the real world...apparently.

I mean, they needed to pick uniform accent for such a small group of migrating halflings. It's not like they were a settled people with villages or cities where regional accents would be a thing...

Also, the "covered in muck, and bits of plants" and whatnot is intentional on the Harfoots part. It's how they stay low and unseen by the bigger more threatening races in Middle Earth...I mean this is VERY clear to anyone who watched the show that they were doing that for a purpose...they are not poor. For all intents and purposes they seem to live pretty normal and enjoyable lives.

And if the writer thinks that people who watch RoP are going to see the Harfoots, and associate their Irish accents with "primitiveness"...then not all his dogs are barking.

Article is quoting Irish academic Conrad Brunstrom (PhD from Cambridge):

The Irish Accents in "The Rings of Power"

'The top species at the beginning of the Second Age in this series remains the Elves. They speak posh English RP, although Morfydd Clark (who plays Galadriel [...]) has remarked that she found the Elvish easier to pronounce as a fluent Welsh speaker.

[...] Dwarves seem to be Scottish, presumably because making them Welsh might subconsciously remind people of a Welsh language that might have inspired Elvish. Humans so far mainly talk like folks from vaguely north of the Trent.'

'Orcs as Millwall supporters. [The Orcs'] East End Cockney provides the least sympathetic version of English available.'

'[...] We have yet to meet any Numenorians though I suspect we're about to. Their accents will be revealing.'

QT and BK, I bet you'll love this part (if you've made it this far):

'While complaining about the primitive Harfoots having Irish accents is there the risk that we're empowering an intolerant narrative about Travellers?'

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 28 September 2022 - 04:17 PM

[QuickTidal]

 Azath Vitr (D, on 28 September 2022 - 04:16 PM, said:

Article is quoting Irish academic Conrad Brunstrom (PhD from Cambridge):

The Irish Accents in "The Rings of Power"

I could be wrong, but it FEELS like an Academic smackdown of the Andy Welch guy who wrote the Guardian article, and I'm here for it.

[Tavvar]

It appears that this season is building up to showing that Sauron was manipulating things behind the scenes the whole time (Numenor and Pharazon, Celebrimbor and that mithril story). Which lines up with what I remember of the lore. Basically the Elves and Numenoreans thought too highly of themselves, Sauron took advantage of that, and led to all the disasters of the late Second Age. They need to have a bit of a slow build up to that. While some of the writers' decisions have been weird, I like the overall story and where it is going, and think it could get really good if the writers polish some things up for furture seasons.

[Tiste Simeon]

Aside from the events of this particular show, can someone tell me if the last great alliance of elves and men (ie when Isildur chopped the ring from Saurons finger) is the signifier of the beginning of the third age?

If not, when does it stop being the second age?

[QuickTidal]

 Tiste Simeon, on 30 September 2022 - 02:31 PM, said:

Aside from the events of this particular show, can someone tell me if the last great alliance of elves and men (ie when Isildur chopped the ring from Saurons finger) is the signifier of the beginning of the third age?

If not, when does it stop being the second age?

That's the defined end of the Second Age. The Third Age is everything after it.

[Tiste Simeon]

 QuickTidal, on 30 September 2022 - 02:35 PM, said:

 Tiste Simeon, on 30 September 2022 - 02:31 PM, said:

Aside from the events of this particular show, can someone tell me if the last great alliance of elves and men (ie when Isildur chopped the ring from Saurons finger) is the signifier of the beginning of the third age?

If not, when does it stop being the second age?

That's the defined end of the Second Age. The Third Age is everything after it.

I thought I remembered hearing/reading that somewhere, thanks!

[flea]

 Tiste Simeon, on 30 September 2022 - 02:31 PM, said:

Aside from the events of this particular show, can someone tell me if the last great alliance of elves and men (ie when Isildur chopped the ring from Saurons finger) is the signifier of the beginning of the third age?

If not, when does it stop being the second age?

I no longer remember how the timeline in the appendices works, but the fall of Sauron represents the end of the Second Age. I believe Isildur's death is part of the Third Age, which makes sense in a narrative arc that results in the crowning of Aragorn, which represents the beginning of the Fourth Age.

I think I'm one episode behind. I'm a bit of a Tolkien geek. My problem with the show that takes place in Numenor is that the arc of that narrative is the shadow that death casts on their civilization, which is largely missing so far (I'm sure it will be introduced). The show made the right decision to start the show with the last generation of Numenor, but it will have a difficult time presenting that conflict in the culture.

I think it is exceedingly difficult to portray mythology, and the First and Second Ages are mythology, even though Tolkien did create some substantial narrative for the First Age. I'm finding this show more than a bit of a yawn.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Hopefully they'll recast Isildur before he gets around to finger-chopping... then again IDK. He does seem like an unlikely Sauron-finger-chopper-offer, and that could be a good(-ish) thing... though from that perspective I'd rather have a harfoot (or orc? or harfoot orc?) do it.

[Tiste Simeon]

Episode 6!

Spoiler

Wow pretty action packed episode there, glad they kept the focus mostly tight on the two converging storylines.

Really loved the ending of this episode, the forming of (what I assume is) Mount Doom was spectacular and the action scenes were all well shot. Be interesting to see how many characters now have plot armour in the next episode... Galadriel for one, Halbrand, probably the Queen, Elendil and Isildur. His mate, the nice one, he's definitely dead.

Really enjoyed the scene in the barn between Galadriel and Adar.

Annoying thing that stood out to me was how did Halbrand appear ahead of Adar when Galadriel was chasing him through the woods? I just sort of shrugged it off as he knows the land and knew a way around? But still, a bit poor.

Otherwise, some hopefully exciting, fast paced times ahead for the final two episodes. I'm guessing we won't actually find out who the Stranger is in this season. I dunno why I just feel like that's where they're heading.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

 Tiste Simeon, on 30 September 2022 - 08:48 PM, said:

Episode 6!

Spoiler

Annoying thing that stood out to me was how did Halbrand appear ahead of Adar when Galadriel was chasing him through the woods? I just sort of shrugged it off as he knows the land and knew a way around? But still, a bit poor.

Spoiler

OTOH it seems like one of several subtle clues in this episode pointing towards amph's suggestion that Halbrand may be Sauron... though IDK how many viewers would pick that up. Show hasn't even mentioned Sauron's shape-shifting abilities iirc.

[Cause]

I feel like this is a poor admission but I think I am watching this show because I have nothing better to do. Its terrible.

Spoiler

The Numenoreans riding to save the village. I feel like they wanted to mirror Rhohan saving Gondor but its doesnt work. Its wrong thematically. Gondor is the capital city of Men, the balwark against Sauron. Its location is well known and the forces gathering against took time and Gondor called for aid. Here somehow the Numenoreans arrived just in time to save the nameless village in the middle of nowhere. Did I miss somewhere maybe where they knew where to go. The scene of them riding full spead to get there is ridiculous when they shouldn't even know where to go.

By trying to make orcs sympathetic they also make Galadriel look like a war criminal. She threatened to torture the orcs by placing them in the sun to get Adar to talk. It might even be realistic but I dont recall anyone in the fellowship ever torturing prisoners. lOtR is fantasy and its magic is that their is a clearly good side battling a clearly evil side. Orcs by nature are cruel, selfish and evil. They are engineered killing machines.

Elendil is probably the best character but I found the scene where he talks poetically about sailing into the sunrise and than he just says my wife drowned to be very odd.

This post has been edited by Cause: 02 October 2022 - 10:08 PM

[Tsundoku]

Your spoiler tags need to go around the other way mate.

Spoiler

Minas Tirith (formerly Minar Anor) is the city, Gondor is the country.

Maybe Elendil was encapsulating Numenor's dependent attutude toward the sea - it kills us but we love it?

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 02 October 2022 - 08:35 PM

[champ]

 Cause, on 02 October 2022 - 04:34 PM, said:

I feel like this is a poor admission but I think I am watching this show because I have nothing better to do. Its terrible.

Spoiler

The Numenoreans riding to save the village. I feel like they wanted to mirror Rhohan saving Gondor but its doesnt work. Its wrong thematically. Gondor is the capital city of Men, the balwark against Sauron. Its location is well known and the forces gathering against took time and Gondor called for aid. Here somehow the Numenoreans arrived just in time to save the nameless village in the middle of nowhere. Did I miss somewhere maybe where they knew where to go. The scene of them riding full spead to get there is ridiculous when they shouldn't even know where to go.

Re how they knew where to go...

Spoiler

Halbrand tells them where to go at the mini war council, something about the enemy heading towards Ostirith.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

 champ, on 04 October 2022 - 07:16 PM, said:

 Cause, on 02 October 2022 - 04:34 PM, said:

I feel like this is a poor admission but I think I am watching this show because I have nothing better to do. Its terrible.

Spoiler

The Numenoreans riding to save the village. I feel like they wanted to mirror Rhohan saving Gondor but its doesnt work. Its wrong thematically. Gondor is the capital city of Men, the balwark against Sauron. Its location is well known and the forces gathering against took time and Gondor called for aid. Here somehow the Numenoreans arrived just in time to save the nameless village in the middle of nowhere. Did I miss somewhere maybe where they knew where to go. The scene of them riding full spead to get there is ridiculous when they shouldn't even know where to go.

Re how they knew where to go...

Spoiler

Halbrand tells them where to go at the mini war council, something about the enemy heading towards Ostirith.

Spoiler

And he knows exactly where they are... because he's Sauron?

Not clear whether it's just some random small village (my impression) or a significant strategic point (maybe, with the nearby elven outpost?) or a major settlement (doesn't seem like it---doesn't look like a large city or anything---but IDK, could be relative)....