[Traveller]

Damn, apparently I missed Chopper!

[HoosierDaddy]

Traveller, on 17 December 2016 - 08:23 PM, said:

Damn, apparently I missed Chopper!

So did I, both times. Did catch Ghost on the second viewing. It's there for all of 2 seconds.

[QuickTidal]

Shit, I must have missed Chopper too!

[Cause]

Spoiler

I enjoyed it. Great film and I love how it addresses the death star weakness. Great piece of writing there. I did not like how leiah leaves the rebel flagship in the end. Its too direct. It places a new hope only hours after Rogue one. I don't know why Darth Vader's star destroyer did not just blast that ship out of space. It also removes even the possibility of Leiah trying to claim being a diplomatic mission for the senate! It marks her and Alderan as clearly in the rebel alliance camp.

[HoosierDaddy]

Cause, on 17 December 2016 - 10:27 PM, said:

Spoiler

I enjoyed it. Great film and I love how it addresses the death star weakness. Great piece of writing there. I did not like how leiah leaves the rebel flagship in the end. Its too direct. It places a new hope only hours after Rogue one. I don't know why Darth Vader's star destroyer did not just blast that ship out of space. It also removes even the possibility of Leiah trying to claim being a diplomatic mission for the senate! It marks her and Alderan as clearly in the rebel alliance camp.

Spoiler

Well... she wasn't. She was definitely a Rebel.

Why she was THERE? That's a good question. I believe the fleet was beginning to disperse and Bail had given her orders to find Obi-Wan and the safest place to leave from was a ship fleeing Yavin that then headed towards Scarif without her knowing as it was attached to the mothership prior to the attempted rescue/mission.

Lots of trailers before this one.

[Tsundoku]

Chopper? Ghost? WTF are you on about?

[Tiste Simeon]

Loved it! Agree with pretty much everything that has been said so far.

Favourite characters were Snarkbot 3000 and Hundred Eyes Star Wars version.

Spoiler

Still don't know who Bothan Spies are...

[Traveller]

Captain Needa, on 17 December 2016 - 11:24 PM, said:

Chopper? Ghost? WTF are you on about?

Do you watch Rebels? The droid and the ship both appear briefly in RO. I saw Ghost in action, but apparently it's at the Yavin base too.

In regards to the other stuff

Spoiler

the ship Leia is on goes into hyperspace. The Destroyer obviously follows, but we have no idea how long it takes to relocate it. It's not likely to have come out of hyperspace for long in ANH before the Destroyer catches up with it, but it may have been long enough for Leia to try to claim that they were on a diplomatic mission and nowhere near Scarif, or at least attempt to bluff her way out of it

This post has been edited by Traveller: 17 December 2016 - 11:59 PM

[Slow Ben]

30 more hours.

[Nicodimas]

In regards to the ending

Spoiler

1st)
What I am not understanding is r2d2/c3po are on Yavin 4. C3po then complains that the rebels are going to scarif...

They are supposed to be with Leia right?..Are they saying Leia was on Yavin 4 at that exact time?

2nd)
If the ship goes into hyperspace and the destroyer Vader on follows..it's not like the Empire is going to just forget the make of that ship.

3rd)
Leia knew the power of the death star was legit...she saw it!!

"Since you are reluctant to provide us with the location of the Rebel base, I have chosen to test this station's destructive power on your home planet of Alderaan."
―Wilhuff Tarkin to Leia Organa[src]

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 18 December 2016 - 12:50 AM

[Grief]

I just got back from seeing this and thought it was precisely mediocre.

Spoiler

I liked the premise of the film a lot. After Episode VII sufferred (imo) from trying to be too epic in scale, I thought that a film with a less grandiose focus could be excellent. I was also excited about having a film without a jedi lead.

The film basically felt like a generic sci-fi action film where you could swap out the props and comfortably find yourself in any other sci-fi blockbuster. While there's plenty wrong with Episode VII, one thing I do commend it for is feeling like a Star Wars film. Rogue One -- despite the various cameos and references that generally did nothing but break my immersion -- didn't feel like it took place in the same universe as the original trilogy. To the extent that any time characters from the original trilogy such as Vader or Tarkin were on screen they felt out of place.

In terms of writing neither Vader nor Tarkin felt like they were menacing, or even had particular motivations; instead they were being threatening generic bad guys because that is the role they were filling and the characters they are expected to be. Indeed any menace Vader had in the originals may have been forever undermined by a pun straight out of 90's Batman. I'm not sure I'll ever be able to look at the character without thinking of that line. The dialogue in general is bland when it isn't cringeworthy (such as the hamfisted emphasis on 'hope') and doesn't do much to flesh out the characters. This is especially rough when there's quite a large cast, since most of them never move beyond being a two dimensional cariacature (I can't even remember most of their names). It also doesn't help that (as with Episode VII) seemingly interesting developments often lead nowhere or are resolved so promptly that it's meaningless (see the tension of Cassian's mission to kill Jyn's dad or Jyn's dad dying for that matter).

Upthread Traveller mentions it not being for kids, but the film is littered with Guardians of the Galaxy style quipping and slapstick throughout. I'd say that for 99% of the film there's more in there for kids than Episode VII; it's just the end that is bleaker. This also adds to the tonal inconsistency that felt present through the whole film to me. Tense moments are often interrupted with humour (the zany robot sidekick is probably the main offender in this regard) in a rather jarring manner. While the movie does have its funny moments, the humour overall isn't enough to justify the effect this has on its narrative flow. As with Episode VII I felt the movie jumped around eratically, trying to cram in too much, which seems even less excusable here (given the less grandiose premise and that Episode VII was re-launching the franchise). The film makes several departures from the Star Wars norm -- notably killing its leads -- yet manages to feel formulaic in basically every other regard. There are also a lot of very lazy contrivances, down to characters conveniently choosing to die after serving their purpose as a plot device. Blah. This film was basically the film I dreaded when I heard that Disney had bought Star Wars. What can I say for it? It was a fine film, in much the same ways that most Marvel films are fine films. It wasn't bad. I enjoyed going to see it with my friends. Ultimately it was disappointing.

[Grief]

Nicodimas, on 18 December 2016 - 12:49 AM, said:

In regards to the ending

Spoiler

1st)
What I am not understanding is r2d2/c3po are on Yavin 4. C3po then complains that the rebels are going to scarif...

They are supposed to be with Leia right?..Are they saying Leia was on Yavin 4 at that exact time?

2nd)
If the ship goes into hyperspace and the destroyer Vader on follows..it's not like the Empire is going to just forget the make of that ship.

3rd)
Leia knew the power of the death star was legit...she saw it!!

"Since you are reluctant to provide us with the location of the Rebel base, I have chosen to test this station's destructive power on your home planet of Alderaan."
―Wilhuff Tarkin to Leia Organa[src]

Yeah this seemed like a bit of a plot hole to me; mostly it seemed motivated for the cameo and to tie it neatly to ANH more than is actually necessary. I think Star Wars is often guilty of trying to tie together/reference the other films a bit too neatly when it doesn't need to. Anakin building C3-PO for example, or Count Dooku having plans for the Death Star. I'm not sure how that's meant to fit with Rogue One's plot, come to think of it.

[QuickTidal]

Nicodimas, on 18 December 2016 - 12:49 AM, said:

In regards to the ending

Spoiler

1st)
What I am not understanding is r2d2/c3po are on Yavin 4. C3po then complains that the rebels are going to scarif...

They are supposed to be with Leia right?..Are they saying Leia was on Yavin 4 at that exact time?

2nd)
If the ship goes into hyperspace and the destroyer Vader on follows..it's not like the Empire is going to just forget the make of that ship.

3rd)
Leia knew the power of the death star was legit...she saw it!!

"Since you are reluctant to provide us with the location of the Rebel base, I have chosen to test this station's destructive power on your home planet of Alderaan."
―Wilhuff Tarkin to Leia Organa[src]

Spoiler

1st: Captain Antilles (of the Tantive IV, which is the ship they escape from in ANH), is Threepio and Artoo's master (since the end of REVENGE OF THE SITH, if you recall) and he is on Yavin 4 with his ship and crew prior to Scarif and is launched into the attack later on. Threepio and Artoo go with him. They are then in space above Scarif at the right moment to take the plans off the other Alderanean cruiser and escape towards Tatooine.

2nd: No they won't forget, and they don't. Which is why the Tantive IV is under attack at the beginning of ANH. The Devastator (Vader ship) chases them through hyperspace.

3rd: No, she MAY have seen it being used to nuke a city (we have to assume she watched...the Tantive may have been busy at that moment), but she doesn't see it being used at full power to destroy a planet.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 18 December 2016 - 01:19 AM

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Tiste Simeon, on 17 December 2016 - 11:56 PM, said:

Loved it! Agree with pretty much everything that has been said so far.

Favourite characters were Snarkbot 3000 and Hundred Eyes Star Wars version.

Spoiler

Still don't know who Bothan Spies are...

Wrong Death Star. I keep making that mistake too.

[HoosierDaddy]

If you don't like Rogue One you hate FREEDOM! Lol.

[Tiste Simeon]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 18 December 2016 - 02:01 AM, said:

Tiste Simeon, on 17 December 2016 - 11:56 PM, said:

Loved it! Agree with pretty much everything that has been said so far.

Favourite characters were Snarkbot 3000 and Hundred Eyes Star Wars version.

Spoiler

Still don't know who Bothan Spies are...

Wrong Death Star. I keep making that mistake too.

Huh? Really? I thought that line came from ANH...

[Traveller]

Grief, on 18 December 2016 - 01:17 AM, said:

Nicodimas, on 18 December 2016 - 12:49 AM, said:

In regards to the ending

Spoiler

1st)
What I am not understanding is r2d2/c3po are on Yavin 4. C3po then complains that the rebels are going to scarif...

They are supposed to be with Leia right?..Are they saying Leia was on Yavin 4 at that exact time?

2nd)
If the ship goes into hyperspace and the destroyer Vader on follows..it's not like the Empire is going to just forget the make of that ship.

3rd)
Leia knew the power of the death star was legit...she saw it!!

"Since you are reluctant to provide us with the location of the Rebel base, I have chosen to test this station's destructive power on your home planet of Alderaan."
―Wilhuff Tarkin to Leia Organa[src]

Yeah this seemed like a bit of a plot hole to me; mostly it seemed motivated for the cameo and to tie it neatly to ANH more than is actually necessary. I think Star Wars is often guilty of trying to tie together/reference the other films a bit too neatly when it doesn't need to. Anakin building C3-PO for example, or Count Dooku having plans for the Death Star. I'm not sure how that's meant to fit with Rogue One's plot, come to think of it.

Spoiler

The Geonosians designed the Death Star, intending it to become a superweapon. But the weapon itself was designed by Erso. The weakness was designed into the reactor by Erso; but the exhaust port and existing structure necessary for the weapon to work formed the way in that the Rebels needed to access the reactor weakness.
Something as complex and enormous as a Death Star would have changed as it was built, and been adapted to fit the weapon.

I think the script works; the rebels and the audience (post RO) know of the reactor flaw - the weakness they are looking for is the port and way in.

When I said it wasn't for kids, I meant that before I saw it I wondered about taking my boy. After seeing it I don't think I will. I don't think the humour in it was childish, or aimed at kids, it was light stuff which it needed to go alongside

Spoiler

scenes of Stormtroopers getting bombed, headshot, and in a rather uncomfortable scene, mown down with a mini gun as a door opened; which at the time I saw as a scary reverse to the boat scene in Saving Private Ryan. Especially after tFA, which shows us the very human side of a stormtrooper. Humour doesn't make it a kids film.

This post has been edited by Grief: 18 December 2016 - 07:42 PM

[HoosierDaddy]

This thread is like debating Memories of Ice with someone that's only read through Deadhouse Gates.

Done.

Rogue One is a near perfect tie in to A New Hope. And hope are what rebellions are built on.

[Grief]

Traveller, on 18 December 2016 - 08:31 AM, said:

Spoiler

The Geonosians designed the Death Star, intending it to become a superweapon. But the weapon itself was designed by Erso. The weakness was designed into the reactor by Erso; but the exhaust port and existing structure necessary for the weapon to work formed the way in that the Rebels needed to access the reactor weakness.
Something as complex and enormous as a Death Star would have changed as it was built, and been adapted to fit the weapon.

I think the script works; the rebels and the audience (post RO) know of the reactor flaw - the weakness they are looking for is the port and way in.

Fair enough; this was basically the justification me and my friends came up with during the post-film chat. I'd agree the script works in that there aren't massive plot holes

Spoiler

(though having Vader chasing Leia directly from the end of Rogue One does make some of the dialogue in the originals a bit strange imo, this still isn't a huge issue though it was an avoidable one).

At the end of the day, I'm not really evulating how good the film is by a metric of 'how cleanly does it tie in cleanly with ANH?' (which applies to Hoosier's comment as well).

Traveller, on 18 December 2016 - 08:31 AM, said:

When I said it wasn't for kids, I meant that before I saw it I wondered about taking my boy. After seeing it I don't think I will. I don't think the humour in it was childish, or aimed at kids, it was light stuff which it needed to go alongside

Spoiler

scenes of Stormtroopers getting bombed, headshot, and in a rather uncomfortable scene, mown down with a mini gun as a door opened; which at the time I saw as a scary reverse to the boat scene in Saving Private Ryan. Especially after tFA, which shows us the very human side of a stormtrooper. Humour doesn't make it a kids film.

Spoiler

I don't think humour inherently makes something a 'kids film', my point was mainly that I don't think the film was massively more bleak than the rest of the series. Though I don't think it's unfair to speculate that the lighter elements could be motivated at least in part by younger elements of the audience (I've heard people say the same about the prequels with little objection). There's obviously a reason that the violence is done in such a way that the certificate isn't too high after all.

I don't think it's particularly necessary to 'lighten the mood' throughout the film because I don't think that the majority of the film is that dark (Star Wars has also given us implied child slaughter by a protagonist, for example; it's not as though the films were incredibly cheery before this one, yet they didn't feel the need to end that scene with a tacked on joke). Stormtroopers being killed en masse is a staple of the series at this point; promptly after TfA shows us the human side of a stormtrooper it makes little of him mowing down a few to escape. While there was plenty of violence, much of it felt cartoonish to me (such as when the blind monk character beats up a ton of stormtroopers with his stick in a well choreographed sequence that felt reminiscent of hordes of droids being chopped up in the prequels; both are considerable acts of violence but the presentation doesn't really give them much of a violent impact). Nor did the film ever ever achieve the horror style tension present in parts of the original trilogy (something I also felt the prequels sorely lacked). My main issue with the humour is that I felt it was bad for the flow of the film. Erratic tonal shifts are a common complaint with the prequels, and I felt this film suffered from the same kind of thing.

Whether you take your son is obviously a personal decision that depends on him personally and what you personally are comfortable/uncomfortable with him seeing as a parent, so I'm not meaning to suggest that you're somehow incorrect about that. Personally I think I'd be more comfortable taking my little sister to Rogue One than Episode VII; it depends on the person.

[QuickTidal]

Grief, on 18 December 2016 - 05:46 PM, said:

Traveller, on 18 December 2016 - 08:31 AM, said:

Spoiler

The Geonosians designed the Death Star, intending it to become a superweapon. But the weapon itself was designed by Erso. The weakness was designed into the reactor by Erso; but the exhaust port and existing structure necessary for the weapon to work formed the way in that the Rebels needed to access the reactor weakness.
Something as complex and enormous as a Death Star would have changed as it was built, and been adapted to fit the weapon.

I think the script works; the rebels and the audience (post RO) know of the reactor flaw - the weakness they are looking for is the port and way in.

Fair enough; this was basically the justification me and my friends came up with during the post-film chat. I'd agree the script works in that there aren't massive plot holes

Spoiler

(though having Vader chasing Leia directly from the end of Rogue One does make some of the dialogue in the originals a bit strange imo, this still isn't a huge issue though it was an avoidable one).

At the end of the day, I'm not really evulating how good the film is by a metric of 'how cleanly does it tie in cleanly with ANH?' (which applies to Hoosier's comment as well).

Traveller, on 18 December 2016 - 08:31 AM, said:

When I said it wasn't for kids, I meant that before I saw it I wondered about taking my boy. After seeing it I don't think I will. I don't think the humour in it was childish, or aimed at kids, it was light stuff which it needed to go alongside

Spoiler

scenes of Stormtroopers getting bombed, headshot, and in a rather uncomfortable scene, mown down with a mini gun as a door opened; which at the time I saw as a scary reverse to the boat scene in Saving Private Ryan. Especially after tFA, which shows us the very human side of a stormtrooper. Humour doesn't make it a kids film.

Spoiler

I don't think humour inherently makes something a 'kids film', my point was mainly that I don't think the film was massively more bleak than the rest of the series. Though I don't think it's unfair to speculate that the lighter elements could be motivated at least in part by younger elements of the audience (I've heard people say the same about the prequels with little objection). There's obviously a reason that the violence is done in such a way that the certificate isn't too high after all.

I don't think it's particularly necessary to 'lighten the mood' throughout the film because I don't think that the majority of the film is that dark (Star Wars has also given us implied child slaughter by a protagonist, for example; it's not as though the films were incredibly cheery before this one, yet they didn't feel the need to end that scene with a tacked on joke). Stormtroopers being killed en masse is a staple of the series at this point; promptly after TfA shows us the human side of a stormtrooper it makes little of him mowing down a few to escape. While there was plenty of violence, much of it felt cartoonish to me (such as when the blind monk character beats up a ton of stormtroopers with his stick in a well choreographed sequence that felt reminiscent of hordes of droids being chopped up in the prequels; both are considerable acts of violence but the presentation doesn't really give them much of a violent impact). Nor did the film ever ever achieve the horror style tension present in parts of the original trilogy (something I also felt the prequels sorely lacked). My main issue with the humour is that I felt it was bad for the flow of the film. Erratic tonal shifts are a common complaint with the prequels, and I felt this film suffered from the same kind of thing.

Whether you take your son is obviously a personal decision that depends on him personally and what you personally are comfortable/uncomfortable with him seeing as a parent, so I'm not meaning to suggest that you're somehow incorrect about that. Personally I think I'd be more comfortable taking my little sister to Rogue One than Episode VII; it depends on the person.

Spoiler

he doesn't know he's chasing Leia yet. All he knows is he's chasing an Alderanean ship. He never saw her, nor would he have the intel about the rebel fleet about what diplomats would be aboard.