[Vengeance]

I feel that this arguement boils down to the same should town lynch or not lynch. Well we have to fucking lynch in order to gather information. So if you want information you have to vote in a government. If you don't then you will always know as much as you knew before which if your a liberal is jack shit.

[D'rek]

Vengeance, on 06 February 2018 - 07:45 PM, said:

I feel that this arguement boils down to the same should town lynch or not lynch. Well we have to fucking lynch in order to gather information. So if you want information you have to vote in a government. If you don't then you will always know as much as you knew before which if your a liberal is jack shit.

I wouldn't say you specifically have to vote in a government (until the 3rd one where it's random if you don't), because we get successive votes for/against a government all in "day 1".

In mafia, if town fails to lynch 3 times in a row you get a little bit of information from the votes themselves but no lynch info AND scum get to kill between each vote.

In this there's no scum kills between the "day 1" votes so it's fine to have a couple failing government votes. We get a little bit of info at no cost. BUT that's moot if the votes are just default/systematic nein votes because then we gain no useful info from them, either.

[Nevyn]

D, on 06 February 2018 - 07:34 PM, said:

Information is all well and good, but we don't actually gain any information if everyone just automatically votes down any government they aren't part of. You have to base your vote on something more than that or nothing can be gained. And I don't think you can conflate Hitler and the other fascists much. Seems like Hitler can lie low for a long time until making a sudden last-minute swoop for the Chancellory and still win, while the other fascists have to actually be actively pursuing agendas... sometimes.

This is very much incorrect. You still gain information on more people's choice of chancellor. And there would be more information to be gained too, but if you haven't figured it out, I shouldn't spell it out as it could alter people's behaviour.

Quote

Your proposed behaviour sounds like a convenient way for fascists to excuse doing any behaviour that might out them on-thread behind the plausibility of following a "system". I don't see how it benefits town enough since we get just about nil info from it.

And this is almost exactly backwards.

A fascist has hidden information and wants to be able to vote accordingly (both rejecting and approving without specific justification) without arousing suspicion.

For example, if I were a fascist with Dolmen (or Dolmen were Hitler), this approach has constrained me to rejecting Dolmen's government anyway. Which works great if other fools approve it, but if it is rejected hurts. But as a liberal, I have no idea whether this government or the next will be good, so there is no temptation to break.


Consider the math

3/8 fascists
If you are a liberal not in a proposed government, 3/7 chance the president is a fascist.
If the president is not a fascist, 3/6 chance their chancellor is.

In other words, as a liberal there is a 71.4% (3/7+2/7*3/6) chance that any government proposed I am not a part of contains a fascist.

And then we hit the other incentives, as well, most of which usually point to a liberal preferring to reject an unknown (example, more rejected governments equate to more opportunities to be a president, especially for those of us last in the order).

[D'rek]

That math is crap when you consider how many fewer policies fascists need to enact and then elect Hitler (which will be damn easy if no one has any information about anyone else's preferences).

Besides, if you're proposing this then probably you are a fascist and the other fascist is somewhere in the turn order that makes for a convenient election where you can vote yes without it breaking your "system".

[Vengeance]

D, on 06 February 2018 - 08:17 PM, said:

That math is crap when you consider how many fewer policies fascists need to enact and then elect Hitler (which will be damn easy if no one has any information about anyone else's preferences).

Besides, if you're proposing this then probably you are a fascist and the other fascist is somewhere in the turn order that makes for a convenient election where you can vote yes without it breaking your "system".

This ^



Math (especially statistics) has no place in Mafia. It is the place that scum go to hide when their fascists policies are seen.

[Vengeance]

This is the longest fucking tea break ever maccy.

[D'rek]

[Nevyn]

D, on 06 February 2018 - 08:17 PM, said:

That math is crap when you consider how many fewer policies fascists need to enact and then elect Hitler (which will be damn easy if no one has any information about anyone else's preferences).

Again, backwards. The fewer fascist policies needed, the MORE the math matters.

Also, liberal preferences right now mean nothing, because they know nothing. Fascist preferences mean a little, but are easy to hide in a world where the liberals don't either always vote Ja or always vote Nein without a reason

Quote

Besides, if you're proposing this then probably you are a fascist and the other fascist is somewhere in the turn order that makes for a convenient election where you can vote yes without it breaking your "system".

The irony of this silly accusation is you accidentally hit upon some of the extra information you gain by rejecting anything. The fascists are the ones who need to break out of the order, and if they don't, it says something about the NEXT government (or it forces them to push forward a good government to hide).

Also, the turn order of third governments in an 8 player game snakes through every single player. 3,6,1,4,7,2,5,8.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 06 February 2018 - 08:45 PM

[Macros]

Im a busy man vengence.


in no particular order, the votes:

Mess - Ja
Cause - Nein
Tatts - Ja
Nomnomnom - Ja
Dol - Ja
Drek - Ja
Nevyn - Nein
Venge - Ja

WE HAVE A GOVERNMENT!

El presidenty Dolmen and his Chancellor Mess

I will now draw 3 policy cards, and pm them to dolmen. He will select two, and tell me this. I will then send these two to Messremb, and he will pick one to enact. it will be either a liberal policy or a facist policy

[Nevyn]

Vengeance, on 06 February 2018 - 08:24 PM, said:

D, on 06 February 2018 - 08:17 PM, said:

That math is crap when you consider how many fewer policies fascists need to enact and then elect Hitler (which will be damn easy if no one has any information about anyone else's preferences).

Besides, if you're proposing this then probably you are a fascist and the other fascist is somewhere in the turn order that makes for a convenient election where you can vote yes without it breaking your "system".

This ^



Math (especially statistics) has no place in Mafia. It is the place that scum go to hide when their fascists policies are seen.

Well, since we can't resort to things like math, game theory or logic, I am forced to conclude that you and D'Rek are fascists under the theory of "he who smelt it dealt it"


Also, you are president #6, so if D'reks accusation were accurate, that would mean I am trying to steer the presidency, to Tatts, you, or both. So by all means, agree with a theory which in effect suggests you're a fascist.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 06 February 2018 - 08:55 PM

[Vengeance]

Nevyn, on 06 February 2018 - 08:49 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 06 February 2018 - 08:24 PM, said:

D, on 06 February 2018 - 08:17 PM, said:

That math is crap when you consider how many fewer policies fascists need to enact and then elect Hitler (which will be damn easy if no one has any information about anyone else's preferences).

Besides, if you're proposing this then probably you are a fascist and the other fascist is somewhere in the turn order that makes for a convenient election where you can vote yes without it breaking your "system".

This ^



Math (especially statistics) has no place in Mafia. It is the place that scum go to hide when their fascists policies are seen.

Well, since we can't resort to things like math, game theory or logic, I am forced to conclude that you and D'Rek are fascists under the theory of "he who smelt it dealt it"

That is called strawmanning and that attack will not work against us.

[Nevyn]

Well, just as an update, at least 1 fascist approved that government (it is in fact at least 2 from my perspective).

And where I was allegedly trying to steer the presidency to Tatts and/or Venge as an evil fascist plot, my Nein vote approach remains unchanged, thus I guess now I'm trying to steer it to Nom and/or Mess (next two 3rd presidents).

[Vengeance]

Nevyn, on 06 February 2018 - 09:15 PM, said:

Well, just as an update, at least 1 fascist approved that government (it is in fact at least 2 from my perspective).

And where I was allegedly trying to steer the presidency to Tatts and/or Venge as an evil fascist plot, my Nein vote approach remains unchanged, thus I guess now I'm trying to steer it to Nom and/or Mess (next two 3rd presidents).

Man you may know this game but you suck at WCS. By my calculations there could have been 3 facists and Hitler voting in the government. Which still gives us more information then Mr. I won't have any government that I am not a part of.

[Nevyn]

Vengeance, on 06 February 2018 - 09:23 PM, said:

Man you may know this game but you suck at WCS. By my calculations there could have been 3 facists and Hitler voting in the government. Which still gives us more information then Mr. I won't have any government that I am not a part of.

You should work on those calculations. There are only two fascists and hitler total.

And none of the 5 liberal voters knew anything, so their preferences meant nothing. Hitler's only knows his own role, so his preference only meant something if he is on the government.

You are gaining information about uninformed votes while fostering an environment where any approving vote can be explained. Good luck with that.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 06 February 2018 - 09:40 PM

[Tattersail_]

Nevyn, on 06 February 2018 - 09:15 PM, said:

Well, just as an update, at least 1 fascist approved that government (it is in fact at least 2 from my perspective).

And where I was allegedly trying to steer the presidency to Tatts and/or Venge as an evil fascist plot, my Nein vote approach remains unchanged, thus I guess now I'm trying to steer it to Nom and/or Mess (next two 3rd presidents).

Hmm, so if I'm liberal I should have voted Nein to make sure I'm president? I'm not that selfish, I'm just beginning to grasp why voting is important. I'm happy we have a government anyway.

[Tattersail_]

Macros, on 06 February 2018 - 08:47 PM, said:

Im a busy man vengence.


in no particular order, the votes:

Mess - Ja
Cause - Nein
Tatts - Ja
Nomnomnom - Ja
Dol - Ja
Drek - Ja
Nevyn - Nein
Venge - Ja

WE HAVE A GOVERNMENT!

El presidenty Dolmen and his Chancellor Mess

I will now draw 3 policy cards, and pm them to dolmen. He will select two, and tell me this. I will then send these two to Messremb, and he will pick one to enact. it will be either a liberal policy or a facist policy

Venge said I may be fake symping him or strawmanning early on, so him voting Ja makes sense if he thinks I'm fascist. Maybe the Ja's went thinking about me at all.

Why did Cause lie about his vote?

[Tattersail_]

Cause, on 06 February 2018 - 07:46 AM, said:

I have sent in a ja vote. I think until we get at least one government and see what it does its all just blind conjecture going nowhere.

For now we just need to remember that dolmen chose messremb 'cause it seemed most likely'

Lies.

[Messremb]

Nevyn, on 06 February 2018 - 09:15 PM, said:

Well, just as an update, at least 1 fascist approved that government (it is in fact at least 2 from my perspective).

And where I was allegedly trying to steer the presidency to Tatts and/or Venge as an evil fascist plot, my Nein vote approach remains unchanged, thus I guess now I'm trying to steer it to Nom and/or Mess (next two 3rd presidents).

You know, we might not follow your "leave it till there is no choice in the election" policy making these speculations about future Presidents moot.

[Nevyn]

Tattersail_, on 06 February 2018 - 09:37 PM, said:

Hmm, so if I'm liberal I should have voted Nein to make sure I'm president? I'm not that selfish, I'm just beginning to grasp why voting is important. I'm happy we have a government anyway.

Well, I mean, you should have voted Nein whether you were liberal or fascist.

Also, it isn't about being selfish. As a liberal, it is about being the 3rd president and knowing your own role is the best way to guarantee a good president. And president is a very powerful role.

You'll understand more as we play. But a fascist president early is a way bigger problem than a fascist chancellor. Presidents have more control over both information and policy.

[Nevyn]

Messremb, on 06 February 2018 - 09:55 PM, said:

You know, we might not follow your "leave it till there is no choice in the election" policy making these speculations about future Presidents moot.

I think you misunderstood. It is wildly clear that no one is going to follow my approach.

But D'rek was hinting that I want Tatts as president (or maybe Venge), and was using that policy to try to get that result.

I am saying that I will still follow that policy. So either D'rek's theory was garbage, or I am now trying to push the presidency to two different people.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 06 February 2018 - 10:03 PM