[Cause]

I reckon he actually thought he could pull it off and as he kept writing even he could not reconcile this nonsense. You can't make a prequel to a show that's 40 years old and have it look like it respects continuity. It was always an impossible task. I'm glad they have admitted it.

I decided he was full of shit when I read an article on why he changed the Klingons so much, his answer was basically he wanted to leave his own mark. So that indicated everything right there.

[QuickTidal]

Cause, on 19 October 2017 - 02:23 PM, said:

I reckon he actually thought he could pull it off and as he kept writing even he could not reconcile this nonsense. You can't make a prequel to a show that's 40 years old and have it look like it respects continuity. It was always an impossible task. I'm glad they have admitted it.

I decided he was full of shit when I read an article on why he changed the Klingons so much, his answer was basically he wanted to leave his own mark. So that indicated everything right there.

Yup.

And in fact, his filmography of material is a who's who of "I want to change this because reasons"

Hell, he's partially responsible for the Kelvin timeline too...so it's like he's basically now rebooted Star Trek twice.

[Nevyn]

QuickTidal, on 18 October 2017 - 11:27 PM, said:

Aaaaaaand Akiva Goldsman just admitted it's not the Prime universe OR Kelvin...and is its own thing entirely.

https://www.polygon....original-series

How's THAT as a big fuck you to all those fans they swore up and down to not to worry, and that this takes place in the Prime Universe.

Gods what an asshole.

Actually, I read what he said as "we will close all the loose ends on continuity if the show runs into the original timeline, but in the meantime stop asking".

But I don't know if that is better or worse. Having it be its own timeline (again) vs taking a show that takes whatever liberties it wants, and then doing harsh corrections to 'explain away' the deviations.

Either way, I've officially given up. I hung on this long because it is a bit of a dead period in the TV calendar.

[QuickTidal]

Nevyn, on 19 October 2017 - 03:12 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 18 October 2017 - 11:27 PM, said:

Aaaaaaand Akiva Goldsman just admitted it's not the Prime universe OR Kelvin...and is its own thing entirely.

https://www.polygon....original-series

How's THAT as a big fuck you to all those fans they swore up and down to not to worry, and that this takes place in the Prime Universe.

Gods what an asshole.

Actually, I read what he said as "we will close all the loose ends on continuity if the show runs into the original timeline, but in the meantime stop asking".

But I don't know if that is better or worse. Having it be its own timeline (again) vs taking a show that takes whatever liberties it wants, and then doing harsh corrections to 'explain away' the deviations.

Either way, I've officially given up. I hung on this long because it is a bit of a dead period in the TV calendar.

Oh yeah, he's all over the place with his statements and they conflict with one another in that very interview.

I think Cause is right...I think Fuller wanted to make a prequel, and Goldsman ran with that after Fuller left the ship...but then as the writing went on realized how hard it is to match up a prequel with canon (surprise!) and decided to ignore it and blaze his own trail...and people keep calling them on the whole "This is the Prime Universe" statement and they keep trying to find a way around outright saying things about it.

What he said is "This isn't the same universe, it's its own original thing" and then "But if we run ten years and have to overlap with TOS, we will find a way to do that"

It's all bulllshit. Goldman just wants to play with Star trek toys, but not adhere to anything about those toys. Making ST:D Star Trek in name of things only.

[Abyss]

At this point - with decent ratings and a better than good shot at a second season - he's probably just trying to make people who actually care about Trek continuity's heads explode.

[Abyss]

Briar King, on 20 October 2017 - 02:31 AM, said:

We are never going to get a after Voyager true Uni show. Makes me wanna cry.

Actually, I'd bet you will, approx a decade from now. CBS will let STD ride for a four season run if for no other reason than to not have it known as the Trek series with less seasons than Enterprise.

Then it will lay fallow for a year or two. We'll probably get another movie in the interim, and then, with much fanfare and promises and fireworks and sacrificial lava beasts, CBS will proudly announce that they are finally going to give the fans what they want, a series set in the interval between the end of TOS and the start of TNG.

The ensuing riots will wipe out CBS upper management, the surviving exec will sell the rights to Trek to Netflix and then Netflix will proudly announce that they have listened to the fans, and would the fans please release the Netflix execs' families and pets being held hostage...

Once the SEAL teams have freed all the families, Netflix will sell the rights for like a dollar to Amazon. Amazon will proudly announce its intention to merge Star Trek with Whole Foods and beam organic overpriced food directly into people's homes. Everyone will be really impressed with this and spend gazillions of dollars on having food transporter tech installed in their homes.

Then the AI that runs the entire system will decide to wipe out all f humanity. In the ensuing human/AI war, most technology will be lost. Generations will pass, and one day a young boy will find a small cache of old TOS Betamax tapes. He will take them home and put them in a strange machine his dad keeps in the back of the tent, but as he has no electricity or tv he'll end up using them to club groundhogs to death and eat them instead.

Then in a few more millenia someone will invent Star Trek again and you'll get your series.

[Cause]

Abyss, on 20 October 2017 - 04:05 AM, said:

Briar King, on 20 October 2017 - 02:31 AM, said:

We are never going to get a after Voyager true Uni show. Makes me wanna cry.

Actually, I'd bet you will, approx a decade from now. CBS will let STD ride for a four season run if for no other reason than to not have it known as the Trek series with less seasons than Enterprise.

Then it will lay fallow for a year or two. We'll probably get another movie in the interim, and then, with much fanfare and promises and fireworks and sacrificial lava beasts, CBS will proudly announce that they are finally going to give the fans what they want, a series set in the interval between the end of TOS and the start of TNG.

The ensuing riots will wipe out CBS upper management, the surviving exec will sell the rights to Trek to Netflix and then Netflix will proudly announce that they have listened to the fans, and would the fans please release the Netflix execs' families and pets being held hostage...

Once the SEAL teams have freed all the families, Netflix will sell the rights for like a dollar to Amazon. Amazon will proudly announce its intention to merge Star Trek with Whole Foods and beam organic overpriced food directly into people's homes. Everyone will be really impressed with this and spend gazillions of dollars on having food transporter tech installed in their homes.

Then the AI that runs the entire system will decide to wipe out all f humanity. In the ensuing human/AI war, most technology will be lost. Generations will pass, and one day a young boy will find a small cache of old TOS Betamax tapes. He will take them home and put them in a strange machine his dad keeps in the back of the tent, but as he has no electricity or tv he'll end up using them to club groundhogs to death and eat them instead.

Then in a few more millenia someone will invent Star Trek again and you'll get your series.

You missed am opportunity to tie in with shanarra near the end there. Otherwise great story.

[Morgoth]

Man the last episode was stupid. The fifth, I think. Dunno how far behind we are here in the frozen north. Anyway, the basic gimmick of this show is that Durnham, Durnam? Durnnam? cannot ever be wrong about anything. So when she goes against her superiors, again, she was right all along and all is forgiven, because of course it is. This is especially annoying considering that if she had gotten her way the captain would be dead. This show is incredibly stupid.

[Cause]

Morgoth, on 20 October 2017 - 07:00 AM, said:

Man the last episode was stupid. The fifth, I think. Dunno how far behind we are here in the frozen north. Anyway, the basic gimmick of this show is that Durnham, Durnam? Durnnam? cannot ever be wrong about anything. So when she goes against her superiors, again, she was right all along and all is forgiven, because of course it is. This is especially annoying considering that if she had gotten her way the captain would be dead. This show is incredibly stupid.

Up to end of episode 5 spoilers

Spoiler

Morgoth She knew what she was talking about! Humans share a large percentage of their DNA with Mushrooms (60% ?), Earth Mushrooms share a large percentage of DNA with Space mushrooms (because that's just how life on different planets rolls) that exist simultaneously in subspace/hyperspace whatever. Its a short 5 minute computing session at a terminal to code for a gene therapy to insert tardigrade DNA into a human who can then have spikes driven into his chest and then he can interface with the computer to navigate the ship. Because a human understands why he is being tortured the process wont hurt, the fact that he nearly died was an anomaly. The federation ban on human genome splicing which has been the plot of no less than 2 movies and multiple episodes of the TV show be damned. Anyway got a little sidetracked there, the point is she knew with 100 percent certainty it would work! Why on earth wouldn't it and even if it wont work on earth she is in space! Vulcan Logic! So they saved the tardigrade, they saved the captain and if by episode 6 every federation ship is not piloted by the spacing guilds navigators who are addicted to Mushroom Spore Spice I will be disappointed by the shows progression. The Mycelium must grow!

Now if you want to talk stupid, lets talk prison escape! 2 humans, one badly beaten and malnourished get the drop on 2 Klingon warriors, one with a gun. Overpower them, make it from the cells to the hangar without encountering locked doors, shields or being teleported back to their cells! Got it. They then jumped into a Klingon fighter that does not have keys, a password or biometric security. Got it. Flew out the ship without the ship blasting it to pieces but instead dispatching more fighters after it. Saru the psychic deduces the Klingons are not following but chasing the lead ship and opens a private communication channel with an enemy vessel and has a chat with the captain rescuing him. A lot of plot shielding happens in Star Trek but this is ridiculous.

This post has been edited by Cause: 20 October 2017 - 12:42 PM

[Abyss]

Cause, on 20 October 2017 - 06:00 AM, said:

Abyss, on 20 October 2017 - 04:05 AM, said:

Briar King, on 20 October 2017 - 02:31 AM, said:

We are never going to get a after Voyager true Uni show. Makes me wanna cry.

Actually, I'd bet you will, approx a decade from now. CBS will let STD ride for a four season run if for no other reason than to not have it known as the Trek series with less seasons than Enterprise.

Then it will lay fallow for a year or two. We'll probably get another movie in the interim, and then, with much fanfare and promises and fireworks and sacrificial lava beasts, CBS will proudly announce that they are finally going to give the fans what they want, a series set in the interval between the end of TOS and the start of TNG.

The ensuing riots will wipe out CBS upper management, the surviving exec will sell the rights to Trek to Netflix and then Netflix will proudly announce that they have listened to the fans, and would the fans please release the Netflix execs' families and pets being held hostage...

Once the SEAL teams have freed all the families, Netflix will sell the rights for like a dollar to Amazon. Amazon will proudly announce its intention to merge Star Trek with Whole Foods and beam organic overpriced food directly into people's homes. Everyone will be really impressed with this and spend gazillions of dollars on having food transporter tech installed in their homes.

Then the AI that runs the entire system will decide to wipe out all f humanity. In the ensuing human/AI war, most technology will be lost. Generations will pass, and one day a young boy will find a small cache of old TOS Betamax tapes. He will take them home and put them in a strange machine his dad keeps in the back of the tent, but as he has no electricity or tv he'll end up using them to club groundhogs to death and eat them instead.

Then in a few more millenia someone will invent Star Trek again and you'll get your series.

You missed am opportunity to tie in with shanarra near the end there. Otherwise great story.

Trek does not deserve to be associated with vagnomes..

[WinterPhoenix]

Yeah I have very little to add to the already exhaustive description of that last episodes inadequacies provided by Cause in the above spoilered description, but suffice it to say that I think the levels of utter ridiculousness and pure shoddy storytelling might have caused me to give up on the show completely. It's been disappointing from the start, I very rarely fail to finish a series after I've already watched 5 episodes but I don't think I'll be keeping up with this on release, probably more a watch an episode every now and then when bored out of my mind sort of deal perhaps.

As for the timeline, it's genuinely not worth the headache, and I get the impression the creators care about little beyond playing with Star Trek. That bugs me and honestly I'm little more than a casual fan really (with a trekkie for a brother) can't imagine how die-hard Trekkies feel about th whole thing tbh.

[worry]

I don't think that episode was particularly worse than the ones before it, or that its goofiest elements (like the escape) don't fit right into ST conventions. I mean, how big a cheat was "you can walk around Borg ships all you want, they don't really care"?

That said, it being a prequel was always a bad idea, and this loosey goosey continuity stuff means making it a prequel wasn't ever necessary in the first place. Just put it whenever and you don't have to duck and dive all these concerns.

If Fuller really wanted a serialized show w/ each season in a different era, it makes sense to start there, but ejecting him should have meant building a new show, not gluing his prequel idea to a bunch of dumber stuff with no end in sight.

[worry]

I will say, Lorca's backstory was more interesting than I expected, and Saru is a great Trek character regardless of all the show's issues.

[Tsundoku]

Did ... two people just say "Fuck" in a Star Trek episode???!!

Spoiler

Ummm ... how did the Klingons find Lorca and know who/what he was? I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be common knowledge. I'd like to see an episode dealing with counter-intelligence efforts, since it seems Starfleet security is like Swiss cheese.

A ruthless bastard like Lorca leaves an enemy alive behind him when it wouldn't even take a second to finish them off? An enemy who may know too much? One who tortured him? I can only come up with the idea he may have given away false information during interrogation and wanted it to be used. Even then as a Klingon, I would be suspicious.

Also - you turn yourself into something that has a closer relationship to a mushroom and you still look human?

Also - Saru's little interpretation of predator behaviour could have been rendered useless if the Discovery noticed the other ships were shooting at the first one.

So much

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 22 October 2017 - 09:47 AM

[WinterPhoenix]

worry, on 22 October 2017 - 07:15 AM, said:

I will say, Lorca's backstory was more interesting than I expected, and Saru is a great Trek character regardless of all the show's issues.

I do like Saru actually yeah, best on the show for sure and quite enjoyable. Lorca is alright, I like Jason Isaacs as an actor which probably gives me a better opinion of the character than I would otherwise have though, the character seems quite cliched in general.

I genuinely can't stand Michael, her room mate is both bland and annoying (I feel sorry for the actress, what on earth is she supposed to do with that) and the chief engineer is grating.

[Cause]

WinterPhoenix, on 22 October 2017 - 11:40 PM, said:

I genuinely can't stand Michael, her room mate is both bland and annoying (I feel sorry for the actress, what on earth is she supposed to do with that) and the chief engineer is grating.

The room mate is a puzzle. Bland, annoying, unattractive and with low self esteem. Cynically I cant help but think that she is meant to be the character that stand ins for some percentage of the audience (at least in some TV execs mind). Look even the bland everyday character can contribute. They made a big deal about the female lead, the black lead, the gay characters etc I feel like this is in part an extension of that.

Speaking of bland the Dr. I get the impression from him that he just stands in the room and talks as he normally would. No charisma or presence at all.

[Cause]

Okay, more space magic. Also a leading Vulcan who acts illogical.

The captain.....

Also a quick google search tells me that many members of the Internet believe cadet Tilly is supposed to represent a character with autism. Not sure if that what the writers meant or not but its a different take to what I was thinking.

[Cause]

Is says a lot about this show, that on this forum no one has posted in 3 weeks.

If you need 9 episodes to get your show to where you want to start telling your real story you have failed.

[Tsundoku]

It has it's moments, but I'm still of the opinion that Burnham isn't an interesting lead character. You'd think so given her buildup, but ... no.

The new security guy-slash-romantic interest ... no.

Lorca on the other hand - A ruthless, egocentric Starfleet captain? That's a cool idea.

At least science guy finally became interesting. Sort of.

[Primateus]

I like the show, but I agree that Burnham is sort of "meh" and her love interest with Tyler seems forced and, really, unnecessary.

Spoiler

At the very end of the latest episode, for a moment there I sort of expected several Borg cubes to come approaching the Discovery