[phoenix15]

Fist time posting on here. I was struck with an idea about Caplo Dreem (SP?) I believe he was banished after his failed encounter with Draconus. Any chance that he becomes The Pack from Midnight Tides?

This post has been edited by phoenix15: 31 July 2016 - 03:59 AM

[nacht]

- Coltaine -, on 27 July 2016 - 06:34 AM, said:

I also think that they are still the descendants of the Imass. Maybe an Azathanai will give evolution a kick in the right direction.

They have some connection to the Eresal. There is a vision of them hanging around with the Deragoth
It was stated somewhere that they were not literally the descendants of imass. More like inheritors.

Evolution is also involved somehow.

[Amby Bole]

I have one question.

Anomanders mother, is it k'rull ?

He gave his house the name of Purake and met his father when he was young ( and k'rull was a woman back then )

So... half azathanai?

[Planck]

I've wondered since I read FoD if Errastas and Arathan could be half-brothers...

[Amby Bole]

Planck, on 18 August 2016 - 11:24 AM, said:

I've wondered since I read FoD if Errastas and Arathan could be half-brothers...

Well, we don't know Arathan's mother yet and Kilmandaros is only a step mother to Errastas, so yeah, could be, probably not tho. Arathan is half azathanai half tiste.

Well, maybe Grizzin Farl disguized himself as a woman and seduced Draconus, not very likely but still. I don't see draconus playing woman

[Siergiej]

nacht, on 27 July 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

Who do you think is the creator of the Human race?

Mael? Old man Moon? A Jaghut (Haut or Varnadas or Gothos)

My bet would be Kallor. Won't be surprised if he turns out an Azathanai responsible for creating humans. It would mean retconning some stuff from Malazan, but it wouldn't be the first time Kharkanas trilogy does that

Amby Bole, on 18 August 2016 - 05:42 AM, said:

I have one question.

Anomanders mother, is it k'rull ?

He gave his house the name of Purake and met his father when he was young ( and k'rull was a woman back then )

So... half azathanai?

His mother's identity is never confirmed. But my assumption after FoL was also that it's K'rul.

[nacht]

Siergiej, on 18 August 2016 - 06:11 PM, said:

nacht, on 27 July 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

Who do you think is the creator of the Human race?

Mael? Old man Moon? A Jaghut (Haut or Varnadas or Gothos)

My bet would be Kallor. Won't be surprised if he turns out an Azathanai responsible for creating humans. It would mean retconning some stuff from Malazan, but it wouldn't be the first time Kharkanas trilogy does that

Amby Bole, on 18 August 2016 - 05:42 AM, said:

I have one question.

Anomanders mother, is it k'rull ?

He gave his house the name of Purake and met his father when he was young ( and k'rull was a woman back then )

So... half azathanai?

His mother's identity is never confirmed. But my assumption after FoL was also that it's K'rul.

I have been thinking of High Denul. It is an elder warren and not part of K'ruls magic. Ilgast Rend uses it.
In BaB, the thaumaturgs use it in really bad ways.
Maybe humans are variants of the Eresal modified using Denul (under the guidance of Kallor)

There is a also the concept of elder gods and the children of these gods. For ex. Sechul Lath and the Twins. Draconus and Arathan/Spite/Envy
It is possible Kallor was not an azathanai but somebody like Korlat.

[Amby Bole]

nacht, on 18 August 2016 - 06:21 PM, said:

Siergiej, on 18 August 2016 - 06:11 PM, said:

nacht, on 27 July 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

Who do you think is the creator of the Human race?

Mael? Old man Moon? A Jaghut (Haut or Varnadas or Gothos)

My bet would be Kallor. Won't be surprised if he turns out an Azathanai responsible for creating humans. It would mean retconning some stuff from Malazan, but it wouldn't be the first time Kharkanas trilogy does that

Amby Bole, on 18 August 2016 - 05:42 AM, said:

I have one question.

Anomanders mother, is it k'rull ?

He gave his house the name of Purake and met his father when he was young ( and k'rull was a woman back then )

So... half azathanai?

His mother's identity is never confirmed. But my assumption after FoL was also that it's K'rul.

I have been thinking of High Denul. It is an elder warren and not part of K'ruls magic. Ilgast Rend uses it.
In BaB, the thaumaturgs use it in really bad ways.
Maybe humans are variants of the Eresal modified using Denul (under the guidance of Kallor)

There is a also the concept of elder gods and the children of these gods. For ex. Sechul Lath and the Twins. Draconus and Arathan/Spite/Envy
It is possible Kallor was not an azathanai but somebody like Korlat.

High Denul is not an elder warren, unless is the elder warren of humans? Such a thing was never mentioned, but it would make no sense... its a warren accesible to almost every race and no blood was necesary to summon its powers.

By the time of FoL K'rull had already make his sacrifice so the other warrens were already accesible. They stumbled upon Denul first, or more accurately, it was the first one to have a name and purpose explained..

[nacht]

Ilgast Rend used Denul in FoD. This is what he has to say about it.

Quote

'Ah, of course. The efforts at healing must try you, Lord. I admit to a sense of wonder, at this rare skill with earth and heath, moulds and roots. Upon battle's field, I have see miracle performed with sharp knife and gut and thorn, but this mysterious sorcery you have found in such mundane things, it is most astonishing.

'There is power in nature,' Ilgast replied, 'and what is often forgotten is that nature lies within us as much as it does out there, amidst high grasses or shoreline. To heal is to draw across the divide; that and nothing more.'

'It is said that such power grows.'
Ilgast frowned at the suggestion, not because he would deny it, but because the notion - which he himself sensed - disturbed him. "it was ever my belief, commander, that we who blinked the mist clear from our eyes, and so swa truly the flow of life, were but privileged, by quirk of temper or gift of vision. We beheld a power in constancy, yet one unaware of itself. Of no mind, if you will. Neither living nor dead; rather, like the wind.' He paused, chewing on those thoughts, and then sighed and shook his head. 'But now, I grow to sense ... something. A hint of deliberation. Purpose. As if, in taking from power, it shifts a shoulder and sets regard upon the taker.'
'That is ... strange, Lord.'
'As if in looking down into the river,' Ilgast continued, his frown deepening, 'one discovers the river looking back up at you. Or a stone returning stern attention. A glance catching the eye of earth, or sand.' He rubbed vigorously at his face again. 'It leaves one startled, I tell you, as if in an instant the world is unmade, and all its comforts are revealed as false, and the solitude we'd thought private was in truth played out before a silent audience; and the minds that gave thought to all we did, why, they think nothing like us.'
He saw Calat Hustain look away, into the fire.
'Forgive me, commander,' Ilgast said, with a gruff laugh. "healing wearies me. There is a Shake word to describe that sense, as of the myriad things in nature giving sudden and most fixed attention upon a person, and the uncanny shiver that comes of it.'
Calat nodded, eyes still on the fire. 'Denul'.
'Just so.'

[Amby Bole]

Well, after finishing the book is pretty obvious, Denul is not an Elder warren, is one of Krull's new warren.

When Ardata failed to use Denul to heal his Thel Akai companion, he asked Krull the reason and he said "because my blood is not for the azathanai".

Ardata recognizes Denul as one of krull warrens.

Now... How is Caladan Brood able to use High Denul? He is probably the best Denul user in the hole story... My theory? Brood accepted a role as guardian of the Denul warren... Its hinted by Icarium that Osserc is the only aspected eleint of the serc warren left after the dead of Sorrit, so maybe other entities can become guardians of the warrens apart from the pureblood Eleint.

Don't know tho.. its hinted that all the Tiste have some draconean blood, so maybe this is not like that and Caladan Brood simply got Krulls permision.

[NefaraisBredd]

koehkont, on 26 July 2016 - 06:48 AM, said:

NefaraisBredd, on 25 July 2016 - 10:15 PM, said:

Kanyemander West, on 22 July 2016 - 05:46 AM, said:

Tays surviving the Vitr just tells me he met whatever qualifications were necessary to replace K'rul.

I hear you, however i still get the impression that only Azathanai can survive the Vitr. There does not seem to be any other species/peoples/creatures that can survive the Vitr. Even demons get disolved.

I think you have a causality problem. The common denominator is the fact that both creatures have godlike abilities. It's like looking at a four-legged creature and concluding it's a dog, while it could be a cat as well. Tayschrenn survives the Vitr because he has godlike abilities. Azathanai survive it because they have the same abilities. This would explain why demons and dragons do not survive; although powerful they are not godlike. A good test would be to dump Kaminsod or the ascended Bridgeburners in there and see what happens

I am aware of Plato's Theory of Forms and I also have an argument with 'causality' in general. I say Tayschrenn must be Azathanai because of what i have read in The books. I am not extrapolating to the same degree as you suggest.

[TheSixthBlade]

I have come around to the idea that Arathan is Ruthan Gudd because Arathan means "walks on water" in Azathanai if I am remembering correctly. Stormriders walk on water in a sense so it may be a nod to his identity. If we assume he is full blooded Azathanai, he may have taken on the form of a Stormrider at some point (maybe is the Stormrider's god) just like Skillen Droe takes on the form of a K'Chain Che Malle Shi'Gul Assassin or Spingalle appears to be a Jaghut.

This post has been edited by TheSixthBlade: 28 September 2016 - 06:26 PM

[Chrixz]

A theory I have, has anyone else picked up on this?

Quote

'Thel Akai, who like a good joke,' Raest said, nodding. 'Dog-Runners, who have made sorrow a goddess of endless tears. Ilnap, who flee a usurper among their island kingdom. Forulkan, seeking the final arbiter. Jheck and Jhelarkan, ever eager for blood, even should it ooze from carrion. Petty tyrants from across the ocean, fleeing the High King's incorruptible justice. Tiste, Azathanai, Halacahi, Thelomen—'

Quote

Upon the strand of desolate beach two days to the west, long wooden boats had pulld up, disgorging blue-skinned strangers from some offshore strew of islands. There was a war among those islands, and the ships - Arathan had been told - were battered, fire scarred, the wooden decks stained black with old blood. The men and women wading ashore were, many of them, wounded, flat-eyed and too exhausted to be wary. Their leather armour showed damage; their weapons were notched and blunted, and they walked like people who had forgotten the stolid certainty of unmoving earth beneath their feet.

Ilnap and blue-skinned islanders, can these be Napans, or ancestors of Napans? As far as I know there are no other blue-skinned people in MBotF?

[Abyss]

Chrixz, on 06 February 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

A theory I have, has anyone else picked up on this?

Quote

'Thel Akai, who like a good joke,' Raest said, nodding. 'Dog-Runners, who have made sorrow a goddess of endless tears. Ilnap, who flee a usurper among their island kingdom. Forulkan, seeking the final arbiter. Jheck and Jhelarkan, ever eager for blood, even should it ooze from carrion. Petty tyrants from across the ocean, fleeing the High King's incorruptible justice. Tiste, Azathanai, Halacahi, Thelomen—'

Quote

Upon the strand of desolate beach two days to the west, long wooden boats had pulld up, disgorging blue-skinned strangers from some offshore strew of islands. There was a war among those islands, and the ships - Arathan had been told - were battered, fire scarred, the wooden decks stained black with old blood. The men and women wading ashore were, many of them, wounded, flat-eyed and too exhausted to be wary. Their leather armour showed damage; their weapons were notched and blunted, and they walked like people who had forgotten the stolid certainty of unmoving earth beneath their feet.

Ilnap and blue-skinned islanders, can these be Napans, or ancestors of Napans? As far as I know there are no other blue-skinned people in MBotF?

It's come up elsethread but i think you're the first person to hit it with quote fu. Certainly seems like a strong possibility.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

No one has mentioned it yet? Ok this is my first pos tin about two years becasue I got divorced and a bunch of shit happened buuuut...

That old god the Korya tries to fight off, but Haut has to come help her with and then he buries it deep in the ground, that's without a doubt the same demon/god that Kuru Qan and the Jaghut woman freeze up again. If I'm not incorrect, I think the creature comes back in Reapers Gale.

Good to be back. Missed you all.

[worry]

That would be more "this is ancient Lether" support too.

[Siergiej]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 21 June 2017 - 08:48 PM, said:

No one has mentioned it yet? Ok this is my first pos tin about two years becasue I got divorced and a bunch of shit happened buuuut...

That old god the Korya tries to fight off, but Haut has to come help her with and then he buries it deep in the ground, that's without a doubt the same demon/god that Kuru Qan and the Jaghut woman freeze up again. If I'm not incorrect, I think the creature comes back in Reapers Gale.

Good to be back. Missed you all.

Wasn't the god in Midnight Tides a new one? I recall there was something about people throwing offerings into a pit and praying and their will thus creating the god that was then bound by Hannan Mosag.

[Joyful Onion]

Ok, sorry about the thread rez.

However, I just jumped in to say that; while I was originally on board with Quick Ben having Korya Delath's soul, I now don't like the idea.

I see she does play with dolls and acorns; and this is the biggest indicator for mine. Yet the fact someone named Delath soul shifts with an unrelated person named Delat just doesn't sit well with me.

The Delat->Delath similarity needs to be forgotten. Quick Ben's sister shares the Delat name and they grew up together in Aren.

What we do know however, is that there are 2 souls undisclosed in the MBotF. 2 potentially powerful beings from FoD who elaborated on in the series are Malice and Arathan.

[Sir.Bumpaclottus]

Just a little theory. I think Korya Delath is Quick Ben, his original soul.

And that her whole mhybe thing is about reincarnation. And that her being empty is just really that shes a normal person but Haut sees some potential in her. Hes mentoring and preparing her to be a great person. And overtime she gains knowledge, power and magic skills. Shes kinda crafting and building her own soul.

And when she dies her own soul enters someone else. 1 soul, her own, but many different vessels troughout time. And every time she passes on, she loose som of herself.

That dream quick ben had when he was a kid, and Hauts comment about many lifetimes. Plus some comment about merlin somewhere on this page made me think of this.

I am not good at expressing myself in English, but i hope it made some sense.

This post has been edited by Sir.Bumpaclottus: 07 August 2017 - 01:28 PM

[Kalam&Quick]

Sir.Bumpaclottus, on 07 August 2017 - 11:38 AM, said:

Just a little theory. I think Korya Delath is Quick Ben, his original soul.

And that her whole mhybe thing is about reincarnation. And that her being empty is just really that shes a normal person but Haut sees some potential in her. Hes mentoring and preparing her to be a great person. And overtime she gains knowledge, power and magic skills. Shes kinda crafting and building her own soul.

And when she dies her own soul enters someone else. 1 soul, her own, but many different vessels troughout time. And every time she passes on, she loose som of herself.

That dream quick ben had when he was a kid, and Hauts comment about many lifetimes. Plus some comment about merlin somewhere on this page made me think of this.

I am not good at expressing myself in English, but i hope it made some sense.

i can definitely see this fitting with quick ben.

My personal theory is Not neccisarity that she IS quick Ben, but that maybe she is a PART of quick ben. like essentially, she may have Soulshifted her soul into his body at some point when he was a kid.


a couple of things that would also support this is, when you think back to the First few times we see soul-shifting happen (quick ben and airlock) iirc tattersall said that it was exxentially a lost art that hadn't been used in a very Long time.

and again when more info started coming out about quick ben and his souls, and how they were surprised he managed to do it 12 times and still be sane, to me this points to Quick ben being more then we know when it comes to soul shifting. it would make sense that He might be in some distant way related to korya, and that maybe she used soul shifting to put herself into HIS body as a child?

This would not only explain the physical appearances that are similar(being a descendant of her) And ALSO why he would avoid Rakes attention, because she realized he might notice its a Female Soul/Tiste Andii Soul in a 7c Human body.

this would also explain his limitations towards the beginning of the series, and how later on he can push himself further and further. maybe She was starting to hit the limits of his "mortal" body and knew she would eventually need to find a new Vessel for her soul to shift into.

its kind of hard to put things into words to accurately describe it, but essentially the actual korya essentially soul-shifted into a distant relative(Kid Ben), which would explain why still remembers his child hood, but also explain his Deep arcane knowledge. why would she do this? assuringly yet to be revealed in good old SE fashion.
this would explain:
1. Why theres been almost no soul shifting for thousands of years(korya has been doing ??? until she shifted into young ben, and thus brought her ancient knowledge back into the mortal worlds in the form of Quick ben)
2. why Quick ben would still have memories of being a kid with his sister, despite technically being Korya.
3. Why he did not want Rake inside his mind(her knowing rake would instantly see that she was Tiste soul in a human body)
4. Why their names are similar and why she would choose him out of every possible person there is( a distant relative and thus maybe being compatible with her soul)
5. Why ruthan gudd knows the name(being similar to Korya. despite Who he actually is, I'm assuming, arathan or not he's from around korya's time)
6. would give some reason on the scene with the Spar of Andii and quick's choice of words.

just another crackpot theory but my take on the whole quick ben situation and all.

This post has been edited by Kalam&Quick: 23 September 2017 - 01:52 AM