[Andorion]

Esa1996, on 10 September 2015 - 07:35 AM, said:

Andorion, on 09 September 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:

Yes, I took it to be a nod towards the fact that the Targaryens at one point controlled dragons. So does this mean Targaryens have draconic powers? And Viserys didn't have them? But Daenerys does?

There's some debate about this but Targaryens in general are not immune to fire. There was magic involved in the end of E10.

Andorion, on 09 September 2015 - 05:01 PM, said:

Thing I forgot to ask - Just what is the deal with Bran's dreams about the three-eyed crow? Is it jsut a portent of Eddards death? Why does the crow have three eyes?

WAFO/RAFO

So there was some magic going on. Probably draconic in nature

[Andorion]

I have started reading Game of Thrones. I will do a detailed post a little later.

[Gorefest]

[Itwæs Nom]

I hope you realise that reading books first is better.

This post has been edited by Charlie Nom: 10 September 2015 - 04:44 PM

[Andorion]

Game of Thrones (the book)

Prologue to Chapter 9 (Bran)

The book as expected is far richer and way more informative.

1. I now know that there is a "King beyond the wall". How/why was this omitted? This is very important!

2. The prologue is way scarier than the pilot

3. The description of the godwood of Winterfell gives it an air of significance that was totally missing in the show.

4. Ned and Catelyn actually have sex! Something that was totally ignored by the show (which is odd because they usually fall over themselves to show sex)

5. Nice little tidbits about the Targaryen war and the history of the Kingsguard.

6. The biggest difference is the way the older children are depicted. Rob and Jon are both 14, Joffrey is younger but taller. In the show Rob and Jon looked at least 16 if not 18 and Joffrey didn't even come close to them in terms of physical stature.

7. There was a point made earlier about how shows force their own visualisations of things and people on us. I totally disagree. Having read Robert's
description I think he was badly miscast. I am kind of seeing a smaller Hagrid.


8. Bran does not discover Cersei and Jaime in the old broken tower but in the old keep, which makes more sense as I always thought it was odd that Cersei would agree to have sex in a ruin potentially full of bird, bat and rat shit.


9. Daenerys is shown as way younger than in the show, the merchant Illyrio is a fat oily ball. Also Daenerys' inner monologue is so sad.


10. There is some ( in my opinion) very vital backstory about how Starks used to be Kings in the North in ancient times. This puts Robs move in episode 10 into better perspective


Thats it for the moment.

[Itwæs Nom]

Andorion, on 10 September 2015 - 05:11 PM, said:

Game of Thrones (the book)

Prologue to Chapter 9 (Bran)

The book as expected is far richer and way more informative.

1. I now know that there is a "King beyond the wall". How/why was this omitted? This is very important!

2. The prologue is way scarier than the pilot

3. The description of the godwood of Winterfell gives it an air of significance that was totally missing in the show.

4. Ned and Catelyn actually have sex! Something that was totally ignored by the show (which is odd because they usually fall over themselves to show sex)

5. Nice little tidbits about the Targaryen war and the history of the Kingsguard.

6. The biggest difference is the way the older children are depicted. Rob and Jon are both 14, Joffrey is younger but taller. In the show Rob and Jon looked at least 16 if not 18 and Joffrey didn't even come close to them in terms of physical stature.

7. There was a point made earlier about how shows force their own visualisations of things and people on us. I totally disagree. Having read Robert's
description I think he was badly miscast. I am kind of seeing a smaller Hagrid.

8. Bran does not discover Cersei and Jaime in the old broken tower but in the old keep, which makes more sense as I always thought it was odd that Cersei would agree to have sex in a ruin potentially full of bird, bat and rat shit.

9. Daenerys is shown as way younger than in the show, the merchant Illyrio is a fat oily ball. Also Daenerys' inner monologue is so sad.

10. There is some ( in my opinion) very vital backstory about how Starks used to be Kings in the North in ancient times. This puts Robs move in episode 10 into better perspective

Thats it for the moment.

1RAFO

7 thats not that bad yet, trust me, later, there is gonna be one guy that is totally miscast...and then hes gonna be miscast once more just a little bit less...

[amphibian]

Charlie Nom, on 10 September 2015 - 04:44 PM, said:

I hope you realise that reading books first is better.

All of you doing this carping about order of consumption - stop fuckin' doing this. He's chosen a course of action and it's working for him. Let him go do as he sees fit and pipe up when he seeks consultation. Otherwise, hush.

Seeing a double handful of these posts in the thread is aggravating me and I'm not even the one doing the live run-through.

Andorion, on 10 September 2015 - 05:11 PM, said:

1. I now know that there is a "King beyond the wall". How/why was this omitted? This is very important!

Some of this is "saving plot lines for later" due to time constraints and depth of focus within a particular season. A book can play around more with a bigger cast without much worry about "too much". A tv series can show greater depth for a smaller cast.

Quote

4. Ned and Catelyn actually have sex! Something that was totally ignored by the show (which is odd because they usually fall over themselves to show sex)

Well... there are quite a few Stark kids, so the implication is obvious there.

Quote

10. There is some ( in my opinion) very vital backstory about how Starks used to be Kings in the North in ancient times. This puts Robs move in episode 10 into better perspective

The book does a slightly better job of showing that the Targaryens came over and upset a very old order of things by sheer might and some politically canny moves. With that might gone and the political canniness gone, the "new" order (only lasted a mere three hundred years) is falling apart. The question of what is better - the new or the old order or a hybrid of the two - is what the series probably looks to answer as a whole. Robb seems to be going heavily towards the old order, rather than the hybrid or the new.

[Nevyn]

Andorion, on 10 September 2015 - 05:11 PM, said:

Game of Thrones (the book)

Prologue to Chapter 9 (Bran)

The book as expected is far richer and way more informative.

1. I now know that there is a "King beyond the wall". How/why was this omitted? This is very important!

It is not omitted, it just doesn't get as much focus. Why? You haven't met him yet.

The show already has issues with people (including yourself) having trouble keeping track of all the characters. Making more reference to someone who will not be onscreen yet would be a poor choice.

Quote

4. Ned and Catelyn actually have sex! Something that was totally ignored by the show (which is odd because they usually fall over themselves to show sex)

Its TV. They have prettier people to have sex.

Quote

6. The biggest difference is the way the older children are depicted. Rob and Jon are both 14, Joffrey is younger but taller. In the show Rob and Jon looked at least 16 if not 18 and Joffrey didn't even come close to them in terms of physical stature.

Quote

9. Daenerys is shown as way younger than in the show, the merchant Illyrio is a fat oily ball. Also Daenerys' inner monologue is so sad.

Some of this has to be done for story purposes, and some to make the story palatable (and legal) for TV.

Modern audiences would not like barely flowered girls getting sold into marriage and becoming pregnant, nor being depicted as nude and sexualized.

But also, the book can more easily give an impression of resolving itself over a fair amount of time. So it is easier to start characters young. Whereas if you cast a kid for a role where they will have to be acting very adult within a season or so, you're going to have issues.

Quote

10. There is some ( in my opinion) very vital backstory about how Starks used to be Kings in the North in ancient times. This puts Robs move in episode 10 into better perspective

If only some helpful person had told you that earlier in the thread when you asked.

And btw, I do think the show had the Greatjon mention it when he proclaimed Robb. It is tough to give background and data dumps on tv, because you either need voiceovers, flashbacks, or have to put the words into dialogue. Which is again why MBotF probably can't go to TV/movies.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 10 September 2015 - 07:33 PM

[Andorion]

I am not quoting previosu replied as that would make a huge wall of text.
I understand about the underage sexuality issue. Yeah showing that on TV would be impossible.

Regarding the King beyond the wall and the exigencies of TV programming I think at least a line or two could have been included. There are many scenes where the Nights Watch discuss about strange things happening, wildlings gathering etc.

The Commander could have had the line of dialogue maybe to someone new, like Jon "Looks like the King is on the move again" and they could have kept it mysterious, it would have added to the menace.

The importance of this king is his known existence gives the wildlings the appearance of a coordinated threat instead of wandering vagabond bands.


Same goes for the King in the North point. The Lannisters often argue about why the Starks can't be trusted. Make Cersei say "They were Kings in the North before the Targaryens you know. Their loyalty to a king in the south isn't set in stone" It would have helped a great deal

[Andorion]

Game of Thrones Book 1

Chapters 9-12

1. The directors of the show seem to have decided to diverge in a major way from two rather important aspects of the book: Tyrion, and Daenerys' wedding.

2. Tyrion: Tyrion was presented as a hard-drinking person who spent his life in the company of whores. In the book its totally different. Instead of waking up from a drunken stupor in the stables, Tyrion spent his nights in the Stark library reading really old books. Even the ancient stuff he is reading - regarding the changing of seasons is significant and gives way more perspective to his trip to the Wall. I am now considering that Tyrion may secretly be worried about the far North and the coming winter. I loved Tyrion in the show, but the book gives him more gravitas. I love him even more now. I am not sure why they focussed so much on the whores

3. Daenerys: In the show the consummation of the marriage is almost a rape. Daenerys is scared and crying, Drogo just wants what he thinks is his, so he just bends her over and takes it. But in the book Drogo is far more caring. He understands the fear and th reluctance. He takes time to soothe her, even excite her, and at the end, she actually welcomes him. This is not just an omission of detail. this is flipping something on its head. I suspect this was done so as to give more agency to Daenerys later.

4. Another interesting point - the Targaryens apparently have a history of family incest as well. Awesome. What is it with Martin and incest? Incidentally I wonder if the Mad King owed his madness to the inbreeding.

5. Eddards departure from the North is so portentious. And so sad. I think this part was handled better in the book as well.

Edit: Now I really want to meet Stannis. In the book Eddard wants Robert to make him Warden of the East, which is appropriate given he is the kings older brother and his position is in the east, but Robert doesn't want to.
In the show quite a few people say Stannis should succeed Robert to the throne, but, even though he is a great general etc.... nobody seems eager at all.

The sense I am getting is everybody respects his abilities but nobody likes him. At all. Sounds interesting.

This post has been edited by Andorion: 11 September 2015 - 03:01 AM

[Andorion]

Briar King, on 11 September 2015 - 04:12 AM, said:

4. I think in the pilot Vis said all this as he was tweaking Danys nipples when she came out of the tub.

He may have. I don't remember it very clearly. My point is that there is a lot of incest here. At least two major families.

[Nevyn]

Tyrion is not all that different in book vs show. They had him in the brothel because its HBO and when the show is new they need more excuses for boobs. He still has a scene in the show talking about why he reads so much. Obviously tough to cover what he's reading.

On your king beyond the wall point, he does get mentioned (and as wildling leader) in season 1, twice. But the title was not used (I think) and they were throwaway lines so you likely did not notice. I don't remember if the books have given you the name yet, so even though its not a plot spoiler, I won't mention it. Also, you never meet him in season 1, so it would be a waste to set him up too much.

[worry]

Andorion, on 11 September 2015 - 02:46 AM, said:

What is it with Martin and incest?

He's heard of Europe.

[Gorefest]

I resent that. And so does my aunt/wife/granddaughter, but her webbed fingers won't allow her to type out her scorn in person.

[Andorion]

What I am unclear on is the position of incest in Westeros society. Is it acceptable in some social circles or classes? As commented upthread, in Rome also in the royal houses of Europe, plus in ancient Egypt I think...? it has been acceptable. Is it similar in Westeros or is it a total taboo? The Tararyen stance was probably known but given their position they could hardly be the norm

[Nevyn]

Andorion, on 11 September 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

What I am unclear on is the position of incest in Westeros society. Is it acceptable in some social circles or classes? As commented upthread, in Rome also in the royal houses of Europe, plus in ancient Egypt I think...? it has been acceptable. Is it similar in Westeros or is it a total taboo? The Tararyen stance was probably known but given their position they could hardly be the norm

It is not common.

The Targaryens were outsiders to Westeros, the only ones from Valyria and the only ones with Dragons. Also, they were the monarchy and free to do as they pleased. Nobody tells the emperor he has no clothes. But it is worth noting those those cases of incest were incestuous marriages, and ostensibly/partly about keeping the bloodline "pure". Incestuous adultery or sex out of wedlock would be seriously looked down upon.

[Andorion]

Nevyn, on 11 September 2015 - 05:50 PM, said:

Andorion, on 11 September 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

What I am unclear on is the position of incest in Westeros society. Is it acceptable in some social circles or classes? As commented upthread, in Rome also in the royal houses of Europe, plus in ancient Egypt I think...? it has been acceptable. Is it similar in Westeros or is it a total taboo? The Tararyen stance was probably known but given their position they could hardly be the norm

It is not common.

The Targaryens were outsiders to Westeros, the only ones from Valyria and the only ones with Dragons. Also, they were the monarchy and free to do as they pleased. Nobody tells the emperor he has no clothes. But it is worth noting those those cases of incest were incestuous marriages, and ostensibly/partly about keeping the bloodline "pure". Incestuous adultery or sex out of wedlock would be seriously looked down upon.

Wasn't there a line from Cersei aobut how Lannisters sometimes married thir own family? Or am I confusing the two families

[Nevyn]

Andorion, on 11 September 2015 - 05:57 PM, said:

Wasn't there a line from Cersei aobut how Lannisters sometimes married thir own family? Or am I confusing the two families

I don't recall, but your own family is not the same as your twin sibling. There are a LOT of Lannisters between Casterly Rock and Lannisport.

[worry]

Pretty sure Tywin and his wife were cousins in the FDR/Eleanor Roosevelt tradition.

[Andorion]

I have read upto the Tourney.


Three points

1. Bran's dream is clearly magical in nature. He sees things he could have known nothing about.
a. What did he see in the North? Is this followed up in later books?
b. What is the crow? Does it have some sort of mythological significance I am missing?
c. The crow pecked him on the forehead, right? Does Bran get any Sight powers now?


2. Regarding Old Nans tale of the Great Winter, this reads like very old stuff as in myth and legend level. Are these children of the forest Elf analogues?

3. I think I am getting the significane of the bastards now. The blacksmiths apprentice was dark, though his mother had yellow hair. I think John Arryn read about that Lannister Baratheon marriage that produced a dark heir, looked at Roberts bastards who were also dark even when the mother was blonde and drew his own conclusions. Am I Right?