[Aptorian]

Got caught up on Falcon and the Winter Soldier.

I think the premise of the story - a bunch of refugee teorists with wimpy super powers is an incredibly weak premise for an avengers story but the show itself is actually really good.

Like Mezla said I didn't care for Falcon or Winter Soldier before the show (or most of the Avengers for that matter) but especially episode 5 really helped the characters grow.

Falcon dealing with the legacy of Captain America is interesting. But I do wish they'd make Bucky look and act much more dangerous and damaged. He doesn't look like an ex Russian killing machine.

Similar with Zemo. The guy looks cute and pouty. Not like an evil war criminal. But he is fun. Loved his little dance scene in Madripor.

[QuickTidal]

Aptorian, on 17 April 2021 - 07:28 PM, said:

Got caught up on Falcon and the Winter Soldier.

I think the premise of the story - a bunch of refugee teorists with wimpy super powers is an incredibly weak premise for an avengers story but the show itself is actually really good.

Like Mezla said I didn't care for Falcon or Winter Soldier before the show (or most of the Avengers for that matter) but especially episode 5 really helped the characters grow.

Falcon dealing with the legacy of Captain America is interesting. But I do wish they'd make Bucky look and act much more dangerous and damaged. He doesn't look like an ex Russian killing machine.

Similar with Zemo. The guy looks cute and pouty. Not like an evil war criminal. But he is fun. Loved his little dance scene in Madripor.

Bucky spent years being deprogrammed in Wakanda, and was a good person before being programmed...so why would you expect him to still be dangerous and damaged now?

[Aptorian]

Because that's what makes his character interesting. The violent programming that can't be erased only refocused. The notion that a wacandan ritual and therapy makes it all good is bullshit.

Same with turning Hulk into smart Hulk. Or Black widow being a front line superhero or a leader of the Avengers. It's just mixed messaging and making shit up that doesn't need fixing.

[Macros]

Oh man, I can feel it, it's going to happen



NERD FIGHT!!

[Tsundoku]

Are you trying to apply logic and continuity to a make-believe universe of super heroes?

Or trying to argue that an exceptionally good "secret" agent can't be an effective member of a heroic team? Everyone has their parts dude.
She's probably more effective than Hawkeye at least (not difficult admittedly). She finds stuff out and points the heavy hitters at it.
Snipes the lower-level bad guys at the edges - who (if left unmolested) can actually be a threat to the heavy hitters under the right circumstances. And so on.

Dunno about smart Hulk but hey, whatever. And Bucky isn't exactly "cured". I'd use phrases like "functional", and "work in progress".

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 18 April 2021 - 10:28 AM

[polishgenius]

The point about Black Widow so far as I can make out isn't that Widow shouldn't be on the team at all because she's ineffective, but that turning Black Widow into an uplifting, line-leading superhero is kind of missing the whole point of who Widow is in the comics, which is, sure, one of the good guys, but a black ops operative more willing to cross some lines which causes conflict, and also, like Bucky, someone with blood in their past she's constantly fighting with. The movies hint at this with 'there's red in my ledger' but it never really goes anywhere, and she is otherwise basically as pure in her actions as Steve Rogers. It's a perfectly good character development of the character as is in the movies, and I've not really got a problem with it, but it is an odd use of Widow when you could have just used a different character, or a new one, without Widow's particular baggage if they'd known that's how it was gonna go.


It's a bit like how the Snyder Cut turned Batman into a gun-weilding optimistic team-builder. Like okay it isn't nonsensical in-'verse, but it is the literal opposite of who Batman is as a character in almost every portrayal.


NERD HULK GO SMASH!

[Malankazooie]

Now we're cooking with gas! Being completely fatigued of anything Avengers or Avengers adjacent, when all the new shows were announced, this and What If? is where I staked my interest flag. Totally pumped for this.

[Aptorian]

Malankazooie, on 19 April 2021 - 02:56 PM, said:

Now we're cooking with gas! Being completely fatigued of anything Avengers or Avengers adjacent, when all the new shows were announced, this and What If? is where I staked my interest flag. Totally pumped for this.

I want to get excited for a Shan Chi film but that trailer is incredibly meh. No real plot outline, no real antagonist. I hope ten rings implies that the REAL Mandarin shows up in this.

[Aptorian]

Tsundoku, on 18 April 2021 - 10:27 AM, said:

Are you trying to apply logic and continuity to a make-believe universe of super heroes?

Or trying to argue that an exceptionally good "secret" agent can't be an effective member of a heroic team? Everyone has their parts dude.
She's probably more effective than Hawkeye at least (not difficult admittedly). She finds stuff out and points the heavy hitters at it.
Snipes the lower-level bad guys at the edges - who (if left unmolested) can actually be a threat to the heavy hitters under the right circumstances. And so on.

Dunno about smart Hulk but hey, whatever. And Bucky isn't exactly "cured". I'd use phrases like "functional", and "work in progress".

polishgenius, on 18 April 2021 - 11:04 AM, said:

The point about Black Widow so far as I can make out isn't that Widow shouldn't be on the team at all because she's ineffective, but that turning Black Widow into an uplifting, line-leading superhero is kind of missing the whole point of who Widow is in the comics, which is, sure, one of the good guys, but a black ops operative more willing to cross some lines which causes conflict, and also, like Bucky, someone with blood in their past she's constantly fighting with. The movies hint at this with 'there's red in my ledger' but it never really goes anywhere, and she is otherwise basically as pure in her actions as Steve Rogers. It's a perfectly good character development of the character as is in the movies, and I've not really got a problem with it, but it is an odd use of Widow when you could have just used a different character, or a new one, without Widow's particular baggage if they'd known that's how it was gonna go.


It's a bit like how the Snyder Cut turned Batman into a gun-weilding optimistic team-builder. Like okay it isn't nonsensical in-'verse, but it is the literal opposite of who Batman is as a character in almost every portrayal.


NERD HULK GO SMASH!

I could go into a very long rant about all the things I've grown to hate about the Marvel Cinematic Universe and the way they use established characters but I'd hate to out do Quick Tidals Last Jedi levels of anger.

There is a logic and continuity to the Marvel universe. The comics have spent more than half a century building history up around the characters. Places, people, events that overlap and create a coherent set of rules and expectations. Sure, at times writers ruin established lore and resets happen but overall there has been decades of forging out roles for individual marvel characters. It's ripe for the picking, no need for Ultimates inspired re-thinking.

Black Widow is NOT a front line operative. She can be but that's like trying to duel somebody with a scalpel. Black Widows "super power" is that she's a super spy, she deals in espionage and assassinations. Black Widow does her fighting with seduction in ball rooms among high society and in back alleys with a silencer where secret agents meet in shadow. Her, Bucky, Nick Fury and a host of other character that haven't appeared in the movies or shows yet, don't work front stage. They are guest character's in other character's series. They show up to warn the Avengers or The X-men or who ever, that shadowy stuff is a foot and then they usually return to their super spy stuff in the shadows when the storyline ends.

But more importantly to my annoyance with for example Bucky's appearance in Falcon and Winter Soldier is the lacking "larger than life" aspect. He's supposed to be a super soldier, a highly trained killer. When you look at Bucky does he seem intimidating to you? Can you feel the violence imminating from him when he's directing his focus on other characters? Does his movements hint at that economy of skill and strength you'd expect? Or does he just look like an actor with a somewhat rugged puppy dog look? They keep joking about Bucky staring at people and it unnerves them. But in those scenes, where Bucky is staring at faux Captain America for example - Do you get any of that tension out of the acting or directing? I think there's nothing there.

I think the majority of the characters in the Marvel films have been cast by B-tier actors who have a pretty face but no character acting chops. Worsened by writing that never plays to the strength of the characters.

And I get why that actually is. These movies and shows are mass market products. They keep it light hearted and simple because the audience don't have the knowledge of the original material and don't care - BUT boy are most of these super heroes distinctly not super.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 20 April 2021 - 07:55 AM

[Malankazooie]

"It seems unfair that Bucky lost an arm when Captain America has three."

[Mezla PigDog]

I watched ep4 and it was poor. The baddies are really crap.

[worry]

Ep 5 was maybe the best ep so far though, very focused. Unfortunately, it's clear with the Flagsmashers they're trying to do a repeat of the trick Ryan Coogler pulled off in Black Panther -- ie the 'bad guys' are right but the ends don't justify the means (not stating my opinion there, but what the writers are going for). But the Flagsmashers are just way more of a blank than Killmonger (even the main one) so it's not really working. They do show a little more spirit in Ep 5, but thankfully they're not the focus and mostly it's everything else that worked for me.

[QuickTidal]

Mezla PigDog, on 21 April 2021 - 09:49 PM, said:

I watched ep4 and it was poor. The baddies are really crap.

Who, the Flag Smashers? That’s because unless they are John Walker, or racism in America...then they aren’t the baddies of this show.

[QuickTidal]

worry, on 21 April 2021 - 10:10 PM, said:

Ep 5 was maybe the best ep so far though, very focused. Unfortunately, it's clear with the Flagsmashers they're trying to do a repeat of the trick Ryan Coogler pulled off in Black Panther -- ie the 'bad guys' are right but the ends don't justify the means (not stating my opinion there, but what the writers are going for). But the Flagsmashers are just way more of a blank than Killmonger (even the main one) so it's not really working. They do show a little more spirit in Ep 5, but thankfully they're not the focus and mostly it's everything else that worked for me.

I mean, that was never exclusive to BP...it’s an MCU trait across the board that the villain has a point/reason but goes about it the wrong way...

Loki
Thanos
Whiplash
Kaecillius
Ghost
Hela
Baron Zemo
Mysterio
Adrian Toomes

These people ALL had either altruistic reasons for what they did but were way misguided...or they were pushed through some life event that they were the mathematical result villain.

Like Killmonger is great, but the notion that Coogler came up with that as some unique thing in the MCU is ignoring how the MCU does most of its villains.

[worry]

Whiplash?! Not every JK Simmons character is from comic books duder.

[Primateus]

QuickTidal, on 21 April 2021 - 11:01 PM, said:

Mezla PigDog, on 21 April 2021 - 09:49 PM, said:

I watched ep4 and it was poor. The baddies are really crap.

Who, the Flag Smashers? That's because unless they are John Walker, or racism in America...then they aren't the baddies of this show.

They ARE villains, they just don't seem like the primary antagonist.

[QuickTidal]

worry, on 22 April 2021 - 01:33 AM, said:

Whiplash?! Not every JK Simmons character is from comic books duder.

Anton Vanko, not a music teacher!

Primateus, on 22 April 2021 - 10:13 AM, said:

QuickTidal, on 21 April 2021 - 11:01 PM, said:

Mezla PigDog, on 21 April 2021 - 09:49 PM, said:

I watched ep4 and it was poor. The baddies are really crap.

Who, the Flag Smashers? That's because unless they are John Walker, or racism in America...then they aren't the baddies of this show.

They ARE villains, they just don't seem like the primary antagonist.

Oh they might be villains, but they are not the intended bad guys of there show. You're right, they are wholly secondary. As such, I'm cutting them more slack as secondary villains since they don't need to be moustach-twirling crazy people like Walker.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 22 April 2021 - 12:54 PM

[Tiste Simeon]

worry, on 22 April 2021 - 01:33 AM, said:

Whiplash?! Not every JK Simmons character is from comic books duder.

I just want you to know I appreciate this joke. Also Whiplash is a superb film.

[QuickTidal]

Tiste Simeon, on 22 April 2021 - 01:49 PM, said:

worry, on 22 April 2021 - 01:33 AM, said:

Whiplash?! Not every JK Simmons character is from comic books duder.

I just want you to know I appreciate this joke. Also Whiplash is a superb film.

While I did not LIKE WHIPLASH from a story POV, I 100% agree it is a technically superb film.

[Mezla PigDog]

QuickTidal, on 21 April 2021 - 11:01 PM, said:

Mezla PigDog, on 21 April 2021 - 09:49 PM, said:

I watched ep4 and it was poor. The baddies are really crap.

Who, the Flag Smashers? That’s because unless they are John Walker, or racism in America...then they aren’t the baddies of this show.

Regardless, they are crap and the red headed lady can't even act.

Whenever John Walker is on screen all I can think about is the gilded birth right of the actor - son if Kurt Russell and Goldie Hawn. If I was him I would never leave my parents house.