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Criticism of Malazan Book of the Fallen
#81
Folken 
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Posted 15 June 2005 - 11:49 AM
@Halfhand, Ganoes makes a return in Bonehunters
<div align='center'>You must always strive to be the best, but you must never believe that you are - Juan Manuel Fangio</div>
#82
Tiste Simeon
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Posted 22 May 2005 - 09:24 AM
Sorry... did I miss something? Britney Spears is popular for her singing? Not to anyone over 11 years old she isn't!
A Haunting Poem
I Scream
You Scream
We all Scream
For I Scream.
I Scream
You Scream
We all Scream
For I Scream.
#84
RodeoRanch
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Posted 13 January 2004 - 04:19 PM
The only thing that truly irks me is the endless philosophizing tjat every character seems to go through. The Mhybe (spelling?) part in MoI bored me.
"Tryin’ to make a livin’ and doin’ the best I can."
"Tryin’ to make a livin’ and doin’ the best I can."
#85 Guest_halfhand_*
Posted 15 June 2005 - 10:26 AM
quote:I'm 100 pages into Gardens of the Moon, and am completely lost. I don't really understand who is fighting who, etc. Is this pretty normal, or do I need to go back and read the first 100 pages again?
Don't worry, it takes a good 200 pages before you start figuring out what's going on. I remember being completely lost after about 150 pages of GoTM, then finally it all started clicking.
As for gripes about the series, I have a couple:
(SPOILERS, be warned)
(a) Too much focus on Felisin.. maybe it's just me, but even after she becomes Sha'ik.. I couldn't stand her character. I'm sorta glad they did her in. :|
(
Paran. I want more Ganoes Paran! I've been waiting since MOI and he hasn't made an appearance. And it looks like he won't in Bonehunters, either.. I really want to know more about the "master of the deck" role. He was such a major character at the beginning of the series, and since book 3, he's become more poweful, yet totally disappeared from the plotline. He's probably my favorite character in the series, followed closely by Whiskeyjack, Kalam, Trull Sengar and Tehol Beddict (and Bugg, obviously.) 
-halfhand
#86
tickhill43
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Posted 31 December 2003 - 02:05 PM
I love this series but one incident almost made me scream out loud. At the start of one of the chapters of HoC when it tells you all about the future of the books. Grub becoming First Sword in the 'late empire period' telling you that the army would destrot the seven cities uprising, that the empire was not going to end in the near future and the position of 1st sword will be recreated. What is the point of reading the books if you know what is going to happen? At least he didn't give too much away. Also I still think that Tavore shall become Empress at some point.
#87
Abyss
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Posted 04 March 2004 - 02:30 PM
The point is made more than once that the bulk of the Malazan army, and certainly the individuals whose viewpoints we see, are -professional- soldiers. That's a significant difference from draftees and conscripts who just want to do their time and go home.
As for women in the army, i find it interesting that SE has them so utterly integrated, yet doesn't overlook the reality of rape and abuse that would still have the potential to occur.
Iirc, some of the desert tribes in 7C during Dg and HoC were less prigressive in their use of women as soldiers, illustrating a less developed society's views as oposed to the malazan one.
Abyss, liked Duiker's unnamed marine in DG. Fascinating character.
------------------------------
Destriant to the Undead Butterflies of Raraku....
What? Did I say something funny?
As for women in the army, i find it interesting that SE has them so utterly integrated, yet doesn't overlook the reality of rape and abuse that would still have the potential to occur.
Iirc, some of the desert tribes in 7C during Dg and HoC were less prigressive in their use of women as soldiers, illustrating a less developed society's views as oposed to the malazan one.
Abyss, liked Duiker's unnamed marine in DG. Fascinating character.
------------------------------
Destriant to the Undead Butterflies of Raraku....
What? Did I say something funny?
THIS IS YOUR REMINDER THAT THERE IS A
'VIEW NEW CONTENT' BUTTON THAT
ALLOWS YOU TO VIEW NEW CONTENT
'VIEW NEW CONTENT' BUTTON THAT
ALLOWS YOU TO VIEW NEW CONTENT
#88 Guest_BAD_*
Posted 20 June 2005 - 12:35 PM
quote:Originally posted by Skrzypek:
@Adaephon Ben Delat
But, you know, we are expected to be anal-retentive in this thread. :-) We all agree that the books are great, otherwise we wouldn't be here would we?
Would be great if it was just in this thread.
And yes WriterNotViking I guess it is some people's idea of fun. Courses for Horses.
#89
Malarion
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Posted 14 January 2004 - 07:21 AM
I find I must agree with MPB in most parts. Many of Erikson's characters are a little shallow at times. I sometimes draw parallels between his acendants and comic-book super heroes/villains. They seem to have that flavour at times (but I still love them).
What Erikson does best is mythology and action. These, I feel, are his real strengths. So, as Arakasi said, sometimes the characters aren't always that important. Its the thing as a whole we must look at.
Personally I'm not a big fan of his obsession with bringing modern moralities into his book all of the time. I know I'll likely get attacked over this, but I can't say I go for the "female marines" thing. You see, in an ancient culture, fighting was very much a physical thing. It wasn't a simple case of pulling a trigger. Therefore (given a nations restriction on how large an army it can afford to maintain), why would arm and train at great cost what are essentially weaker soldiers? Yes, I know this sounds a little sexist (its not intended to, but it does sound that way), but we must face facts. Given equal training and weaponry, most times a man would beat a woman in a fight. So why fundementally weaken your army by having female soldiers when it is not necessary. It all sounds like a bit of modern political correctness to me.
I know this sounds a little generalised. After all, I see no reason why a woman cannot be a general of the army and so on. Just not an everyday grunt on the battlefield.
Anyway, I think I've strayed a little from the topic.
Where once was light
Now darkness falls
Where once was love
Love is no more
What Erikson does best is mythology and action. These, I feel, are his real strengths. So, as Arakasi said, sometimes the characters aren't always that important. Its the thing as a whole we must look at.
Personally I'm not a big fan of his obsession with bringing modern moralities into his book all of the time. I know I'll likely get attacked over this, but I can't say I go for the "female marines" thing. You see, in an ancient culture, fighting was very much a physical thing. It wasn't a simple case of pulling a trigger. Therefore (given a nations restriction on how large an army it can afford to maintain), why would arm and train at great cost what are essentially weaker soldiers? Yes, I know this sounds a little sexist (its not intended to, but it does sound that way), but we must face facts. Given equal training and weaponry, most times a man would beat a woman in a fight. So why fundementally weaken your army by having female soldiers when it is not necessary. It all sounds like a bit of modern political correctness to me.
I know this sounds a little generalised. After all, I see no reason why a woman cannot be a general of the army and so on. Just not an everyday grunt on the battlefield.
Anyway, I think I've strayed a little from the topic.
Where once was light
Now darkness falls
Where once was love
Love is no more
Grumpy is only my middle name.
#90 Guest_Dark Daze_*
Posted 13 February 2004 - 02:05 AM
..But the lack of sex and the deemphasis on family makes Erikson a little dismal at times even more so than Martin (at least for me.)
#91 Guest__*
Posted 23 March 2004 - 11:17 PM
There maybe alot of people with "ultimate" powers but they do not often use em because they nearly always come with a hefty price tag. IE Icarium's rage (memory loss and zero control over it), most Soletaken/D'ivers lose their sanity if veer to much, Fener being pulled down from goghood cos he abused his powers, Pannion seer getting his comuppance for his use of the CG's powers.
I think that is the point of the Tiste Andii. It was said somewhere (I can't remember) that Rake is a leader of a lost race, with no fight of their own. So they fight for other peoples honourable causes. They don't want the world for themselves. Just because they have the power too doesn't mean they are going to use it to that purpose. He also looks after his people too a full scale assault on the Seer's armies would have led too many more deaths than actually happened to Rakes people and while they are lost they still seem to want to live.
I think that the timeline is waht keeps alot of the mystery going in the Malazan world. it may eventually all get explained but maybe it is better that it doesn't
. It's like a great film ending that leaves you asking. Note The Italian Job (the original), did they make it away with the gold or not. It's brilliant.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Grrrrrrrrrr!!! Wash my cup and die evildoer." - Masher of HHT
Buffy talks to BAD and so you don't forget M.F.2004
I think that is the point of the Tiste Andii. It was said somewhere (I can't remember) that Rake is a leader of a lost race, with no fight of their own. So they fight for other peoples honourable causes. They don't want the world for themselves. Just because they have the power too doesn't mean they are going to use it to that purpose. He also looks after his people too a full scale assault on the Seer's armies would have led too many more deaths than actually happened to Rakes people and while they are lost they still seem to want to live.
I think that the timeline is waht keeps alot of the mystery going in the Malazan world. it may eventually all get explained but maybe it is better that it doesn't
. It's like a great film ending that leaves you asking. Note The Italian Job (the original), did they make it away with the gold or not. It's brilliant. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Grrrrrrrrrr!!! Wash my cup and die evildoer." - Masher of HHT
Buffy talks to BAD and so you don't forget M.F.2004
#92 Guest_Dark Daze_*
Posted 14 January 2004 - 10:38 PM
An author need not avoid stereotypes to create good characters. Stereotypes are the first way we view other people. Then slowly as we discover things about those people we see them more and more as individuals. Likewise, the important aspect of character development is expanding beyond the confines of the stereotype by adding unique and interesting details.
Actually, the use of stereotypes can make a character more compelling because the author can deny as well as fulfill expectations.
Is Erikson's writing too philosophical and unrealistic?
An ironic thing about dialogue is that if it is too close to reality it will be incredibly boring and you will consider the writer to be a hack. Writing should never be a slice of life. Good writing emphasizes certain aspects of life. Even the news which uses "sound bites" alters the way people really talk. Erikson simply puts into words a lot of the interesting things that go unsaid.
Are all of you officially banned for criticizing Erikson? Yes, I tried to reason with Mr. Erikson, but he has no patience for this insolence. On Friday all of you are officially gone!
Actually, the use of stereotypes can make a character more compelling because the author can deny as well as fulfill expectations.
Is Erikson's writing too philosophical and unrealistic?
An ironic thing about dialogue is that if it is too close to reality it will be incredibly boring and you will consider the writer to be a hack. Writing should never be a slice of life. Good writing emphasizes certain aspects of life. Even the news which uses "sound bites" alters the way people really talk. Erikson simply puts into words a lot of the interesting things that go unsaid.
Are all of you officially banned for criticizing Erikson? Yes, I tried to reason with Mr. Erikson, but he has no patience for this insolence. On Friday all of you are officially gone!
#93 Guest_Medium-Paced Ben_*
Posted 14 January 2004 - 10:22 AM
Arakasi,
when you put it like that, I agree completely. I admit that I do tend to think of Erikson as fitting more with Moorcock, Howard, etc, rather than writers such as Martin, Hobb and Williams, who write much more historically-based medieval fantasy epics.
I really don't believe in making direct comparisons between authors that obviously write in very different sub-genres of their chosen field.
And you are perfectly right, what appeals to one person will annoy another, and what I might consider a weakness in a writer or book you might consider a strength. I guess that's what makes these sorts of discussions interesting.
And getting back to Erikson's characters, personally I'm very interested to see what characters we'll meet in Midnight Tides. I'll be happy to see more of Trull Sengar, but I wonder how different the new cast will be to the sort of characters we've seen before, and whether he'll hit us with any curve-ball characters (ie: Itkovian, Karsa).
"The Priest of Elder Mael dreams rising seas"
when you put it like that, I agree completely. I admit that I do tend to think of Erikson as fitting more with Moorcock, Howard, etc, rather than writers such as Martin, Hobb and Williams, who write much more historically-based medieval fantasy epics.
I really don't believe in making direct comparisons between authors that obviously write in very different sub-genres of their chosen field.
And you are perfectly right, what appeals to one person will annoy another, and what I might consider a weakness in a writer or book you might consider a strength. I guess that's what makes these sorts of discussions interesting.
And getting back to Erikson's characters, personally I'm very interested to see what characters we'll meet in Midnight Tides. I'll be happy to see more of Trull Sengar, but I wonder how different the new cast will be to the sort of characters we've seen before, and whether he'll hit us with any curve-ball characters (ie: Itkovian, Karsa).
"The Priest of Elder Mael dreams rising seas"
#94 Guest_Skrzypek_*
Posted 19 June 2005 - 10:59 AM
quote:Originally posted by Darth Morgoth:
Just out of curiosity though... That comment was sarcastic yes? Please say it was sarcastic.
I meant Erikson's world. And I wasn't sarcastic - magic allows that.
#95 Guest_halfhand_*
Posted 17 June 2005 - 10:31 AM
Agree with the last bit about Kellanved. He doesn't strike me as a strong leader, or as the type to instill loyalty in his people. Maybe his ascendancy changed his personality.
Honestly, of the two, it's the Rope who inspires confidence.. Ammanas comes across like a giggling schoolgirl for the most part.
-halfhand
Honestly, of the two, it's the Rope who inspires confidence.. Ammanas comes across like a giggling schoolgirl for the most part.
-halfhand
#96 Guest_writernotviking_*
Posted 20 June 2005 - 11:39 AM
@Skrzypek & ABD:
But it's FUN!
But it's FUN!
#97 Guest_Arakasi_*
Posted 14 January 2004 - 10:07 AM
@Medium Paced Ben
The thing I was trying to say is that Erikson is aiming for something different then Martin. How he writes his series doesn't always need strong characters. I think it is a concious decision of him as a writer to focus more on the plot and world building and give us that sort of Tolkien feel like I said. I was just using Tolkien as a comparison. You said that Erikson has the best characters in the sword and sorcery genre and I agree that he does, but I don't agree that Martin or Hobb are in that genre. When I think sword and sorcery I think of people like Moorcock, Howard, etc and those are the people who I see comparisons with in Erikson's work, especially with people like Rake and Karsa.
Martin goes for something different and also succeeds at it. What it comes down to in the end is just personal taste, and what you think the flaws are of each series. And of course this differs for each person. It is interesting that what one person can see as a flaw the other person sees as either something they like or even a strength.
All fled, all done, so lift me on the pyre. The feast is over, the lamps expire.
The thing I was trying to say is that Erikson is aiming for something different then Martin. How he writes his series doesn't always need strong characters. I think it is a concious decision of him as a writer to focus more on the plot and world building and give us that sort of Tolkien feel like I said. I was just using Tolkien as a comparison. You said that Erikson has the best characters in the sword and sorcery genre and I agree that he does, but I don't agree that Martin or Hobb are in that genre. When I think sword and sorcery I think of people like Moorcock, Howard, etc and those are the people who I see comparisons with in Erikson's work, especially with people like Rake and Karsa.
Martin goes for something different and also succeeds at it. What it comes down to in the end is just personal taste, and what you think the flaws are of each series. And of course this differs for each person. It is interesting that what one person can see as a flaw the other person sees as either something they like or even a strength.
All fled, all done, so lift me on the pyre. The feast is over, the lamps expire.
#98 Guest_Medium-Paced Ben_*
Posted 14 January 2004 - 07:05 AM
@ Arakasi,
This was a discussion on criticisms of Erikson's work, not Tolkien's, Martin's or anyone elses. Personally I'm loathe to make direct comparisons between different writers, because I think that it detracts from all writers concerned. An author should be judged on his/her own merits and faults, not someone else's.
I merely found it interesting that in rereading Erikson I found myself looking at his characters so differently. They seemed much less like real, believable people, and more like convenient mouthpieces for ideas and philosophies. Sometimes those ideas and philosophies fit with the characters, and sometimes they don't, IMHO.
Don't get me wrong, I still think Erikson is a great writer, and I love MBOTF, but I'm not blind to the series weak points, ie: too much repitition and unnecessary philosophising, and some weak characterisation.
But then again, I've never read any author that I thought was perfect, or that didn't have some weaknesses in their books. They are all human, after all.
"The Priest of Elder Mael dreams rising seas"
This was a discussion on criticisms of Erikson's work, not Tolkien's, Martin's or anyone elses. Personally I'm loathe to make direct comparisons between different writers, because I think that it detracts from all writers concerned. An author should be judged on his/her own merits and faults, not someone else's.
I merely found it interesting that in rereading Erikson I found myself looking at his characters so differently. They seemed much less like real, believable people, and more like convenient mouthpieces for ideas and philosophies. Sometimes those ideas and philosophies fit with the characters, and sometimes they don't, IMHO.
Don't get me wrong, I still think Erikson is a great writer, and I love MBOTF, but I'm not blind to the series weak points, ie: too much repitition and unnecessary philosophising, and some weak characterisation.
But then again, I've never read any author that I thought was perfect, or that didn't have some weaknesses in their books. They are all human, after all.
"The Priest of Elder Mael dreams rising seas"
#99
Arkmam
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Posted 21 June 2005 - 07:27 AM
We all know that Tiste Simeon really is SE, why would he need more accounts than that? 
"If you got dragnipur'd, chaos would move closer."
- Ancient Malazan insult
- Ancient Malazan insult
#100 Guest_Dark Daze_*
Posted 28 January 2004 - 01:57 AM
Were floating cities and magical warrens common in medieval times?
