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a couple of points regarding the gods etc, theres a scene inMOI whgen paran is in the azath house and figures out its not mortals whop play to gods tunes but the other way around, i think erikson is trying to show that with MT aswell, that until K'rul and mael resurfaced all the elder gods were pretty much wiped out, so although the gods like hood and shadowthrone etc are gods they were once mortal. Their followers in a way do things which force their hands, heboric and fener for example, or hoods herald, or karsa, lots of examples of the gods trying to control things but mortals doing their own thing and playing them. Look at kruppe or quick ben and you will see why the gods cant get involved because although they might try to influence things at the end of the day the mortals are in charge. Remember in GOTM anomander threatens shadowthrone into making the rope leave sorry.
Paran aswell was not a wimp, erikson makes a strong point about his cold critical nature, he stabbed that hound of shadow, stood up to rake,, walked in the sword, fought the finnest, bloody hell he was a great charcter. And is there some rule in books that a person who we know near enough nothing about like osric isnt allowed to beget children. Just because loric choose not to drink a dragons blood doesnt mean his sisters cant. In MOI we learn the tiste andii on drift avail are rakes grandchildren for heavens sake. just because it hasnt been mentioned doesnt mean its not allowed. Its called character development.
And spontanaity??? hello hows the story meant to progress. If something has to happen to set a story in motion then it has to happen full stop, if it didnt the books would be boring as sin cause nothing would happen and we would have another wheel of time on our hands with you lot going, why doesnt anything happen!!! erikson aswell usually explains why events occured afterward. Plus its more exciting and a better read that way.
Criticism of Malazan Book of the Fallen
#1
drinksinbars 
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Posted 21 May 2004 - 04:42 AM
#2
Morgoth
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Posted 30 January 2005 - 04:06 AM
I personaly think Rake is just as he should be considering the known events of his life. I quite enjoy reading about him.
@Marduk - Lol, I just noticed that outside the Inn I have more registerd posts than you
@Marduk - Lol, I just noticed that outside the Inn I have more registerd posts than you
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#3 Guest__*
Posted 11 May 2004 - 11:43 AM
How does someone ascend 
? Dunno, nobody knows except Erikson I guess. Maybe he doesn't even know yet 
. It has something to do with wisdom and experience. Personally I think you need an "ultimate goal/mission/purpose" to ascend aswell as those. You are willing to sacrifice all else for that one purpose. Just my thoughts (I just thought that idea up, good eh?). . . 
? Dunno, nobody knows except Erikson I guess. Maybe he doesn't even know yet . It has something to do with wisdom and experience. Personally I think you need an "ultimate goal/mission/purpose" to ascend aswell as those. You are willing to sacrifice all else for that one purpose. Just my thoughts (I just thought that idea up, good eh?). . .
#4 Guest_Legion_*
Posted 20 May 2004 - 05:46 AM
One slight critism I would have of Eriksson is sometimes the books can be very...spontanous. Sometimes events happen, I think, just for the sake of happening. Ok, it does drive the plot and characters forward but it can become a bit..I think the phrase "cause and effect" comes in here.....
#5
Eldered
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Posted 11 May 2004 - 12:03 PM
Hey Bad.. Nicely done. I was just skimming through the find engine under 'Ascension' and by Odin's white beard does that discussion meander!! I was completely lost in the forest as it were. I'd need a signal flare! Know what I'm saying? Interesting posts to the thread but nobody really knows!! 
I was looking for that question in the Erikson Q&A's, which again, great questions and even greater answers, but I didn't find that question in there... "Ahem, excuse me Mr. Erikson, for the love of all that is good could you please explain to us the nature of Ascension?" Hopefully somebody, somewhere covered it.
I was looking for that question in the Erikson Q&A's, which again, great questions and even greater answers, but I didn't find that question in there... "Ahem, excuse me Mr. Erikson, for the love of all that is good could you please explain to us the nature of Ascension?" Hopefully somebody, somewhere covered it.
#6
Tiste Simeon
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Posted 25 October 2004 - 04:33 AM
I think you're right Abyss, Brood probably knew that Kruppe wasn't going to be affected. He probably just wanted to show he wasn't to be messed with.
I think theres a thread somewhere talking about how powerful Kruppe is.Here.
I think theres a thread somewhere talking about how powerful Kruppe is.Here.
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#7 Guest_tamaris_*
Posted 06 May 2004 - 07:06 PM
First of all, I want to aggree with all of your criticisms. Though this doesn't detract from these books. These are the best books of the genre. It really outshine all the cliche and rip-offs such as Goodkind (puke), Salvatore, etc.
But I just want to add my 2 cents on the topic of women's role. I know it is kind of unrelated to the thread, but while we're debating the topic. The role of women in warfare in our world is evident right through our history. One example is around the 20-100AD, 2 women kings ruled a small kingdom which is now known as Vietnam. I referred to them as "kings' as they had powers befitting a king, not a queen. They were both warrior kings, leading an army mixed men and women and were undefeated. They took on the Latter Han Empire, a nation 100 times their size and held their own. Overrun years later by size and vast resources, they committed suicide.
There were another women king from the same nation about 200 years later.
The point is, when it comes to fighting, women do just as well. They are kept from the battlefield due to the largely patriarchal societies around the world. Note: Vietnam started off as a Matriarchal social structure.
But I just want to add my 2 cents on the topic of women's role. I know it is kind of unrelated to the thread, but while we're debating the topic. The role of women in warfare in our world is evident right through our history. One example is around the 20-100AD, 2 women kings ruled a small kingdom which is now known as Vietnam. I referred to them as "kings' as they had powers befitting a king, not a queen. They were both warrior kings, leading an army mixed men and women and were undefeated. They took on the Latter Han Empire, a nation 100 times their size and held their own. Overrun years later by size and vast resources, they committed suicide.
There were another women king from the same nation about 200 years later.
The point is, when it comes to fighting, women do just as well. They are kept from the battlefield due to the largely patriarchal societies around the world. Note: Vietnam started off as a Matriarchal social structure.
#8
Murrin
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Posted 22 April 2004 - 03:05 AM
quote:
Although i love the complexity of thses books it does get a little tough when you have to concentrate so much on every chapter, prophecy, poem etc in case they are vital plot clues. Not after some David Gemmil style hack and slash but im only just starting to get my head round the books on my third re-read. I guess thats what makes them so rewarding though.
Guess this really depends on the reader. I prefer books like this, not for looking out as I read for clues, but because there is then the added satisfaction of seeing these clues on a re-read and understanding the relevance, whereas trying to remember them all first time would be a lot of effort to little purpose. Enjoy the story first time, pick up the little hidden details on the reread.
#9 Guest__*
Posted 30 April 2004 - 10:22 AM
Well it's just like a normal royal rumble I guess. When the older fighters retire (in Eriksons books die/get killed/imprisoned) new ones come to replace them 
.
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#10
Tiste Simeon
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Posted 22 October 2004 - 06:39 AM
The thing I didn't like was one point in MOI, where Kruppe annoys Caladan Brood and he uses his hammer. Now this is like the mother of all hammers, and I believe he could potentially destroy most of the world with it if he tried. However, the army gets shaken up a bit, then goes back to there business. No injuries or anything, just a crack in the earth.
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#11 Guest_messirah_*
Posted 02 November 2004 - 06:15 AM
am a fan of the series the only problem is it takes too long for the next one to be out a yr seems like an eternity as for the soldiers hell they are old veterans living too long can be boring ask mael so veterans just want to have somethin to live for....
#12 Guest_Coz_*
Posted 18 June 2004 - 02:42 PM
i'm not sure if its already been mentioned, but i always hated the word "potsherd". It is used too much in DhG and i'm not even sure what it means. is it a shard of pottery? Who knows?
#13 Guest_old1_*
Posted 20 April 2004 - 12:20 PM
Ormis, you suggest a suspension of some of the more, if I can use the pun, unrealistic desires for more concrete realism in SE's books. This is an idea I can agree with. (I liked your comment about Martin's books) Whether its female character's or the plethora of Powerful people, I find the books immensely entertaining. I will say that I've liked reading some of the criticisms voiced by fellow readers as well. Many of the concerns mentioned have stuck a cord with me more than once, so I will give my own ideas. I think the biggest criticism I can give is this. The books are what you say in that they are an amalgamation of all that we hold dear in the fantasy genre. This is not a bad thing. However, I think it is more than just the vocabulary of SE and the grouped/familiar desires of fantasy readers all found in one book. Its the singular amount of detail that holds us to the series. The sheer amount of detail that holds true to itself through a large amount of text. This is the problem. It captivates us but it spreads out the idea of a singular storyline. Will we in the end be able to link all of the events that lead up to that moment? I mean this both as a question regarding a reader's capacity, and as a question to the author. Will we have a single story to hold us after the series ends, or will we find multiple endings and a large piece of concocted history standing there before us presented to us by a very creative anthropologist and historian? What will this all mean in the end? (SO, thats my criticism/question. I don't think it an important one, and I will probably forget about it the next time I get caught in the "moment" of reading a good SE book.)
This is an impossible project. I congradulate SE for undertaking it.
This is an impossible project. I congradulate SE for undertaking it.
#14
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Posted 11 May 2004 - 10:52 AM
@Bad- Great point. I'd forgotten about some of the gods'status before their Ascension. But what I wish to know is, what of their predescessors? Evidently gods can be killed off, otherwise there wouldn't be any vacancies in the Houses right?How the heck does one Ascend?? Why could all the Bridgeburners ascend just because of some sorceror's song on the Seven Cities subcontinent? It's all a bit fuzzy hey? But ah, this has been addressed in a separate thread I imagine.
#15 Guest_tamaris_*
Posted 11 May 2004 - 07:33 PM
I dislike SE seemingly changing the rules last minute when he see that the readers have familiarised themselves with his world. I believe that his penchant for keeping the readers confounded and confused will be his downfall.
All of a sudden, Ossric has 2 other daughters who are both Ascendant Eleint. Lo'ric, his son in the previous book didn't seem so powerful and no indication that he is dragon soletaken.
I think SE makes up characters out of the air without really planning the story out . Which makes great reading but also confuse the main thread by changing the rules and introducing new things as it takes his interests.
And his elevation of a wimp like Paran to Master of Deck is just plain annoying.
Still, he is the best in this genre.
All of a sudden, Ossric has 2 other daughters who are both Ascendant Eleint. Lo'ric, his son in the previous book didn't seem so powerful and no indication that he is dragon soletaken.
I think SE makes up characters out of the air without really planning the story out . Which makes great reading but also confuse the main thread by changing the rules and introducing new things as it takes his interests.
And his elevation of a wimp like Paran to Master of Deck is just plain annoying.
Still, he is the best in this genre.
#16
drinksinbars
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Posted 26 April 2004 - 05:17 AM
i think you guys that the vocabulary isnt generally over board ffor most characters in the book are geniuses in a way. The characters that SE focuses are generally old and powerful beings with the exceptions of maybe crokus and felisin, but felisin was nobly born and obviously was trained for polite society whereas crokus does seem very childish and never really keeps up with the people hes around. IN mt we are mostly dealin gwith the major players in the realm, i would be really worried byu the writing if characters who are hundreds of years old, even thousands of years old, talked with an intelligence level of an average person as that would seriously feel wrong.
when people complain about the conversations of say the soldiers in malazan armies the forget that these soldiers are told to think and theres not much else to do when you march!!!
the level of inteligence for each charcter is very well put, whiskeyjacks squad are old, i put fiddler at least in his sixties or seventies, remember the journey across raruku changed them all. The tiste are all ancient, as are the jahgut and tlann amass. The lethras like tehol are pointed out ot be genuises and those that arent he leaves in his wake. Remember no one can keep up with him bar bugg who is an elder god!!!
when people complain about the conversations of say the soldiers in malazan armies the forget that these soldiers are told to think and theres not much else to do when you march!!!
the level of inteligence for each charcter is very well put, whiskeyjacks squad are old, i put fiddler at least in his sixties or seventies, remember the journey across raruku changed them all. The tiste are all ancient, as are the jahgut and tlann amass. The lethras like tehol are pointed out ot be genuises and those that arent he leaves in his wake. Remember no one can keep up with him bar bugg who is an elder god!!!
#17
Tiste Simeon
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Posted 08 November 2004 - 07:59 AM
I have no problem with the women in the Malaz army. I think it's a good idea, and it works.
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#18
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Posted 15 April 2004 - 08:29 AM
I dislike all the metephor-phillosiphy paragraphs. I don`t understand half of it.It accounts for a lot of the writing and most of the time does not show me the charecter or plot advancment I think it is meant to.
#20 Guest_Ormiss_*
Posted 17 April 2004 - 10:37 PM
Not to step on anyone's toes, but in my opinion you people should probably take your lasting arguments into threads of their own. I found it very stimulating to read about people's criticism on the Malazan books (criticizing something you like is the healthiest thing ever!) but the thread seems to trail off half-way along, turning into an endless string of retorts about the validity of females in soldiery.
I have an opinion on that subject too, but I'll take my own advice and say nothing, except that I think the series is a lot more entertaining with females interspersed among the men in all positions. "Realistic" fantasy such as GRR Martin just serves to depress me, I'm afraid.
As for criticism, my main beef (especially after reading Midnight Tides) is that every single character is a genius, capable of more fluent, eloquent, and indeed magniloquent speech than any living human on our own planet. (Heck, most people need a script to speak even nearly as well!) I've got a functional suspension of disbelief and I actually enjoy these long chains of sesquipedalians, but I found that with the latest book, they were so common that it seriously detracted from my enjoyment of the previous genius characters such as Kruppe and Iskaral Pust (both of which were hilarious, especially Pust with his external-internal monologue.)
In Erikson's defense, I can see how he must have been having a serious abstinence in the absence of his previous characters, and so needed to throw in some new poets to tide him over, but Midnight Tides was way overboard for me personally.
My other concern is that there is no romance at all. Erikson is skilled at the human factor, but falls into the same trap that has bagged almost every single living author: That of believing that only unrealistic characters can have fulfilling romances. Someone said that the series has no fair maidens and dashing princes (yuck, keep those away from me, please!) and can't contain courtship because it's largely set on the battle-field. However, my definition of a good romance is a bond of respect that grows between two people as they wade through strong adversity together, interspersed with dialogue and other emotional outlets. Unfortunately, the few couplings so far have been bereft of emotion, in my opinion.
Also, I feel that Erikson flies on the wings of language, getting away with a lot of things because his epos is extremely well written. After all, the series is pretty much every single fantasy cliché and truism known to man thrown into a huge kettle which is then stirred until everything is re-fashioned in a cool way. Without Erikson's mastery of the English language, these books would look parodic, in my opinion.
Of course, it's hard for me to idolize Anomander Rake after having read the Coldfire Trilogy.. (Best Character Development Ever.)
Let me just mention that for everything I said, I think that the Tale of the Malazan Book of the Fallen is the best fantasy series currently available. Especially now that I've lost all faith in Robert Jordan and his relentless procrastination.
I have an opinion on that subject too, but I'll take my own advice and say nothing, except that I think the series is a lot more entertaining with females interspersed among the men in all positions. "Realistic" fantasy such as GRR Martin just serves to depress me, I'm afraid.
As for criticism, my main beef (especially after reading Midnight Tides) is that every single character is a genius, capable of more fluent, eloquent, and indeed magniloquent speech than any living human on our own planet. (Heck, most people need a script to speak even nearly as well!) I've got a functional suspension of disbelief and I actually enjoy these long chains of sesquipedalians, but I found that with the latest book, they were so common that it seriously detracted from my enjoyment of the previous genius characters such as Kruppe and Iskaral Pust (both of which were hilarious, especially Pust with his external-internal monologue.)
In Erikson's defense, I can see how he must have been having a serious abstinence in the absence of his previous characters, and so needed to throw in some new poets to tide him over, but Midnight Tides was way overboard for me personally.
My other concern is that there is no romance at all. Erikson is skilled at the human factor, but falls into the same trap that has bagged almost every single living author: That of believing that only unrealistic characters can have fulfilling romances. Someone said that the series has no fair maidens and dashing princes (yuck, keep those away from me, please!) and can't contain courtship because it's largely set on the battle-field. However, my definition of a good romance is a bond of respect that grows between two people as they wade through strong adversity together, interspersed with dialogue and other emotional outlets. Unfortunately, the few couplings so far have been bereft of emotion, in my opinion.
Also, I feel that Erikson flies on the wings of language, getting away with a lot of things because his epos is extremely well written. After all, the series is pretty much every single fantasy cliché and truism known to man thrown into a huge kettle which is then stirred until everything is re-fashioned in a cool way. Without Erikson's mastery of the English language, these books would look parodic, in my opinion.
Of course, it's hard for me to idolize Anomander Rake after having read the Coldfire Trilogy.. (Best Character Development Ever.)
Let me just mention that for everything I said, I think that the Tale of the Malazan Book of the Fallen is the best fantasy series currently available. Especially now that I've lost all faith in Robert Jordan and his relentless procrastination.
