Criticism of Malazan Book of the Fallen
#62 Guest_fortrip_*
Posted 20 July 2005 - 06:47 AM
One of my complaints about Malaz is the shared attitude towards religeon, ive just read MOI and evryone is extremely derisive about it. Toc gruntle and paran all complaining about being the wrong choice and the "show me an alter and i'll p**s on it" attitude, they all kinda seemed like cardboard cut outs.
#63
Posted 22 May 2005 - 08:49 AM
quote:And a side note, the poster had the nerve to compare Erikson's popularity to Britney Spears and I quote "Saying Erikson is popular becasue of his writing is like saying Britney Spears is popular for her singing"!!!!!
I for one only read Erikson because of the way he looks
"If you got dragnipur'd, chaos would move closer."
- Ancient Malazan insult
- Ancient Malazan insult
#64
Posted 04 February 2004 - 12:57 PM
Mind you , I would say that having read of several well informed texts on Fighting and Warfare (particularly Sword Fighting), and where a few of those were translations of actual texts written in th 12th and 13th century etc, it was more than simply the massive social barriers that stopped women from fighting.
All these books detail what is required for a good swordsman (skill, endurance, quick feet, balance, nerve, courage, strength) and as such preclude women from fighting. NOW BEFORE YOU LYNCH ME! Read on, because this is not sexist!
...Still with me? Good. You must not make the mistake of comparing modern day values of what a woman can achieve physically (athletics and so on) because they simply did not have the chance to do so in the medieval years. Also, the concept would have been largely unimagined.
Now, having said that, there are always exceptions and if anyone can prove me wrong then I would like to know because this is to the best of my knowledge.
My point? Erm, whilst I do not agree that the standard use of women in the Malazan armies seems unrealistic (I have them in my story), I do take issue with the sheer numbers of them, though I have wondered if this is more an issue of running out of soldiers in the traditional empire recruitment grounds and having to cast the net wider.
(The propensity of Mercenaries in the latter Roman Empire contributed largely to its downfall)
Phew!
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The dead are like a silent, conquering army.
With every battle their ranks grow,
Marching, inexhaustible, each and every one,
Beneath crumbling stone banners. - The Call of Hurgana
All these books detail what is required for a good swordsman (skill, endurance, quick feet, balance, nerve, courage, strength) and as such preclude women from fighting. NOW BEFORE YOU LYNCH ME! Read on, because this is not sexist!
...Still with me? Good. You must not make the mistake of comparing modern day values of what a woman can achieve physically (athletics and so on) because they simply did not have the chance to do so in the medieval years. Also, the concept would have been largely unimagined.
Now, having said that, there are always exceptions and if anyone can prove me wrong then I would like to know because this is to the best of my knowledge.
My point? Erm, whilst I do not agree that the standard use of women in the Malazan armies seems unrealistic (I have them in my story), I do take issue with the sheer numbers of them, though I have wondered if this is more an issue of running out of soldiers in the traditional empire recruitment grounds and having to cast the net wider.
(The propensity of Mercenaries in the latter Roman Empire contributed largely to its downfall)
Phew!
------------------------------
The dead are like a silent, conquering army.
With every battle their ranks grow,
Marching, inexhaustible, each and every one,
Beneath crumbling stone banners. - The Call of Hurgana
Victory is mine!
#65
Posted 19 June 2005 - 08:17 AM
On the subject of Karsa vs. the Deragoth:
quote:Steven Erikson wrote:
How did Karsa do so well against the Deragoth, and was it in some way due to the fact that the two Hounds of Shadow are 'dead'?
Hmm. I think one tends to view the quintessential barbarian as someone with little more than strength and blind courage as assets, in the Conan style. I suppose in many ways Karsa was modelled on that, so that, outwardly, he comes across as big, mean and somewhat unwitting. Alas, lots of characters who encounter him think the same way, and pay for it later. I loved Howard's Conan, and Kull, and Bran, but at the same time a lot has changed in the genre, and with Karsa I wanted to riff on the original archetype, while at the same time keeping him appropriately non-verbal, often inarticulate. Which makes him easily under-estimated, whereas someone like Anomander Rake, with all his intellect and mystery, can be over-estimated (in comparison). Karsa killed the Deragoth because he was meaner, and far mroe stubborn than they were. It was a battle of wills, both bestial, perhaps, but the intent was for something primal, where the reader could witness (as did Kalam and QB) the sheer relentlessness of Karsa Orlong. The linkage to the 'dead' Hounds of Shadow is less clear, and did not relate in any way to the vulnerability of the Deragoth.
#66
Posted 01 January 2004 - 07:54 PM
Fanderay,
I agree, those aspects add to the feeling of antiquity one gets when the characters are wandering the wastes of Rarakau over the bones of previous civilisations. I suppose a parallel could be drawn with the earthsea trilogy, the books despite their very small size give the world an impression of cultural depth despite the absence of over verbose descriptive narrative. It wasn't until years later that I was told that both the parents ofUrala Le Guin were reknowned anthropologists! Go figger!
I agree, those aspects add to the feeling of antiquity one gets when the characters are wandering the wastes of Rarakau over the bones of previous civilisations. I suppose a parallel could be drawn with the earthsea trilogy, the books despite their very small size give the world an impression of cultural depth despite the absence of over verbose descriptive narrative. It wasn't until years later that I was told that both the parents ofUrala Le Guin were reknowned anthropologists! Go figger!
#67
Posted 21 July 2005 - 11:05 AM
I'm not sure you can compare religion as it is understood and practised in this world, and the worship of gods (and many of them) in the so-called Malazan world.
Most of them are pretty barbaric and with so many different gods there it's bound to make the people pretty blase.
Its' quite refreshing not to treat fantasy novel religion like some sort of......... religion
Most of them are pretty barbaric and with so many different gods there it's bound to make the people pretty blase.
Its' quite refreshing not to treat fantasy novel religion like some sort of......... religion
#68 Guest_writernotviking_*
Posted 20 June 2005 - 07:44 AM
quote:Originally posted by Longhorn:
@WriterNotViking - are you...?
Nah, couldn't be.
Could it?
Am I what? Could it be what? Should I be worried?
If you're wondering if you know me from some other place, I am reasonably sure that there is only one WriterNotViking on the web... Unless Google lied to me.
#69
Posted 20 June 2005 - 01:28 PM
quote:Originally posted by caladanbrood:
He thought you were Erikson At least, thats what I assumed he thought
Yeah that's what I thought What can I say, it was early and I didn't get any coffee...
OK, I think I got it, but just in case, can you say the whole thing over again? I wasn't really listening.
#70 Guest_Sergeant Whiskeyjack_*
Posted 08 June 2005 - 04:46 AM
I can't believe I'm the only one to pick up on this one. Don't get me wrong, I love each and every book and honestly believe them to be the best fantasy series I have EVER read, but the fact that the characters within appear to grunt almost every two lines is a little disconcerting. OK, so maybe that's a slight exageration, but there is one hell of a lot of grunting in the books.
#71
Posted 13 February 2004 - 08:25 AM
dd - maybe, but martin is too far the other way, imho... too much family politics... its nice to have a refreshingly simlified view of a story, as given by the mostly soldier PoVs of the malazan books
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O xein angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti tede,
keimentha tois keinon rhemasi peithomenoi.
Unaligned - Obelisk - Friend of Asterisk.
"How would you feel if you were a Spurs fan and
had to carry around a damn hammer all day?"
¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬
O xein angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti tede,
keimentha tois keinon rhemasi peithomenoi.
Unaligned - Obelisk - Friend of Asterisk.
"How would you feel if you were a Spurs fan and
had to carry around a damn hammer all day?"
O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde; keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.
#72
Posted 04 February 2004 - 06:31 PM
Duiker, most of what you said can be atributed to environment rather than genetics (hunting, etc). If a grild grows up thinking she's a he, then it's not like she'll have an afinity for sewing - monkey see, monkey do. As for the romance, I don't think being in the middle of a war is conducive to courtship! Again, these aren't Lords and Ladies at the King's Court, or farmers who haven't to ask Mr. Plough's permission to see his daughter Snow, etc. I think with the romances shown, it's more what's between the lines than the usual descriptions that accompany these types of scenes in fantasy books. The romance doesn't exactly come from the moment itself, but more from reflecting on those moments (e.g. Korlat waiting for Whiskeyjack in Maurik). These moments are tender in a different kind of way. Atypical though.
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Never argue with idiots. They bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
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Never argue with idiots. They bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
"The harder the world, the fiercer the honour" - Dancer
#73 Guest_Molly Bloom_*
Posted 05 January 2004 - 07:13 PM
Isn't it usually industrialism that kills off magic in most fantasy stories? Once man realizes he can have the comforts (by means of industry) that the magically talented have then the non magical gather up against or have no need for the magical.
Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good...with ketchup
Molly Bloom
Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good...with ketchup
Molly Bloom
#74 Guest_writernotviking_*
Posted 20 June 2005 - 09:01 AM
quote:Originally posted by Longhorn:
Uh...never mind...
And yes, very well argued.
Well then, thank you, too.
#75 Guest_Duiker_*
Posted 07 February 2004 - 08:02 AM
I could be mistaken but it seems to me most of the army women (that are also characters) are veterans and have been around for a quite while. Since before Laseen...
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Stake Your Claim. Live the Legend. A World Awaits. The World of Warcraft (release Summer 2004) But for now, SWG will suffice
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Stake Your Claim. Live the Legend. A World Awaits. The World of Warcraft (release Summer 2004) But for now, SWG will suffice
#76
Posted 20 June 2005 - 04:40 AM
@WriterNotViking - are you...?
Nah, couldn't be.
Could it?
Nah, couldn't be.
Could it?
OK, I think I got it, but just in case, can you say the whole thing over again? I wasn't really listening.
#77 Guest_BAD_*
Posted 17 June 2005 - 11:40 AM
/sifts through the spam in other peoples posts
Derudan was a witch of Tennes (warren of the land) if I remember correctly and would have most likely been able to keep herself alive a little longer than your run of the mill assassin. I also had the image that Tennes was linked to to Denul or that it at least had healing capabilites. Which also would have helped keep her alive. Remember how Hairlock remained alive for quite sometime after having his legs completely removed, now I'm no biology whiz but that would have you dead pretty quick. I am guessing that mage's can keep themselves alive in dire conditions for at least a little amount of time.
Things in SFF book are not always scissors paper stone. The circumstances of the certain 'battles' you have instanced play a major part in the outcomes. Also while some things maybe excellent for one-one duels they may not be so effective at battling multiple opponents.
Ever think that's exactly why he has gotten where he is now? People mistake for what he is. Then when they least expect it, that's when he plays his hand. But yeah I also think his ascension may have slightly twisted his personality.
quote:Originally posted by stonerman:
the only thing I dislike is the inconsistencies that come up in a few places like:
In DG Kalam uses a white paralt knife and the assasin he stabs is dead before he hits the ground. But when the witch derudan is stabbed, crokus and baruk for a minute or two and then give her the antidote and she's fine
Derudan was a witch of Tennes (warren of the land) if I remember correctly and would have most likely been able to keep herself alive a little longer than your run of the mill assassin. I also had the image that Tennes was linked to to Denul or that it at least had healing capabilites. Which also would have helped keep her alive. Remember how Hairlock remained alive for quite sometime after having his legs completely removed, now I'm no biology whiz but that would have you dead pretty quick. I am guessing that mage's can keep themselves alive in dire conditions for at least a little amount of time.
quote:Originally posted by stonerman:
the power inconsistencies, one azalan demon kills a hundred men in a minute, but the deragoth can tear apart a dozen azalan demons, and then toblakai kills both deragoth, and he is definately not as fast an an azalan
in GOTM it says the moons spawn enfilade was a childs cantrip compared to the sorcery of the tlan imass bonecasters" but a bonecaster had trouble killing l'orics familiar, some pitiful bird demon
Rake says serrat could kill him if he broke his word, but Vorcan beat the crap out of Serrat in like 5 seconds, so Vorcan fled from four hunters when ten of them couldn't defeat a demon that rake easily could, when rake is about as powerful as vorcan? didn't seem to fit
Things in SFF book are not always scissors paper stone. The circumstances of the certain 'battles' you have instanced play a major part in the outcomes. Also while some things maybe excellent for one-one duels they may not be so effective at battling multiple opponents.
quote:Originally posted by stonerman:
and then shadowthrone, he is always giggling insanely, breaking deals, betraying people, and always coming across as a lot dumber than the rope. Yet he is the honourable emperor Kellanved who inspired loyalty and bound together the old guard with faith and companionship, and also used his razor sharp cunning to go froma barkeep to an emperor, always struck me as odd
Ever think that's exactly why he has gotten where he is now? People mistake for what he is. Then when they least expect it, that's when he plays his hand. But yeah I also think his ascension may have slightly twisted his personality.
#78
Posted 22 July 2005 - 09:24 PM
'An army that waits is soon at war with itself' (paraphrased)
Emperor Kellanved
Emperor Kellanved
#79 Guest_Duiker_*
Posted 07 February 2004 - 04:47 PM
Do you know if Erikson Himself has ever commented on the subject?
------------------------------
Stake Your Claim. Live the Legend. A World Awaits. The World of Warcraft (release Summer 2004) But for now, SWG will suffice
------------------------------
Stake Your Claim. Live the Legend. A World Awaits. The World of Warcraft (release Summer 2004) But for now, SWG will suffice
#80 Guest_Caldazar_*
Posted 13 January 2004 - 05:38 PM
Why Friday?
and yeah the Mhybe parts were painful.
and yeah the Mhybe parts were painful.