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Criticism of Malazan Book of the Fallen
#121 Guest_BAD_*
Posted 08 June 2005 - 11:41 AM
I didn't know we were using logic when we are talking about a world with dragons, shapeshi fters, ravens that can talk, flying mountains, sorcery, a civilisation of dead people, demons, plants that strangle people for eternity. . .
#122
Malarion 
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Posted 03 January 2004 - 06:48 PM
Actually, I hate the way there is so many inconsistances in the power of each race. One minute Gothis is saying he's glad the Tiste Andii are so few, the next minute the Tiste Andii look pretty puny (and so on).
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Am I alone in this?
Where once was light
Now darkness falls
Where once was love
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#123 Guest_Thorokin_*
Posted 29 January 2004 - 02:07 PM
My major criticism is the utter lack of romance or sexuality. The vast majority of sex in the Malazan world seems to be between any two convenient people, to relieve tension. Or boredom. Hetan pointing at Gruntle and saying "I ride you now" may be amusing, but it isn't very satisfying emotionally for the reader.
The supposedly romantic relationships aren't any better. Paran and Tattersail had nothing in common, they didn't seem to connect on an emotional or physical level... it seemed like more of a plot device than anything else. And Whiskeyjack and Korlat... /shrug. They met, they talked, Korlat said "Come to my tent, human," and they spent a few chapters hinting at having sex. That was it.
It's a small complaint, considering the vast amount that Erikson does so amazingly well. I'd much rather have detailed battles and heartbreaking last stands than endless chapters of dashing young nobles declaring their undying love for fair maidens. I just don't think it's quite right that in a work as massive and impressive as the Malazan, the most emotionally tender moment between two characters is Picker slipping her arm around Blend and murmuring "It's down to what the night hides..."
The supposedly romantic relationships aren't any better. Paran and Tattersail had nothing in common, they didn't seem to connect on an emotional or physical level... it seemed like more of a plot device than anything else. And Whiskeyjack and Korlat... /shrug. They met, they talked, Korlat said "Come to my tent, human," and they spent a few chapters hinting at having sex. That was it.
It's a small complaint, considering the vast amount that Erikson does so amazingly well. I'd much rather have detailed battles and heartbreaking last stands than endless chapters of dashing young nobles declaring their undying love for fair maidens. I just don't think it's quite right that in a work as massive and impressive as the Malazan, the most emotionally tender moment between two characters is Picker slipping her arm around Blend and murmuring "It's down to what the night hides..."
#124
Paran
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Posted 18 January 2004 - 06:57 PM
Weell, dragonmount was somewhat like this a couple of yrs ago. I think this forum keeps going because SE keeps bringing out more stuff and a relatively cracking pace!
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#126 Guest_spook_*
Posted 21 March 2004 - 04:02 PM
I find the fact their is so many people with ultimate powers gets a bit too much sometime.
Take the tiste Andii, Korlat said if the 1000 Tiste joined their powers together it could devestate the continent, then why was their a need to destroy Moon Spawn and so many armys to get rid of the Seer.
Just when you thought you meet the big bad of the magic world and he exits stage left, another one is introduced from the right of the stage.
Also I think the time lines get very mixed up, what with tiste, T'lan, Jaghut, Kallor, 1st Empires, CG, etc
Kallor says he can remeber when the T'lan were still children, but he's Human, he had a great empire, but it wasnt the first, etc, so was he around before the Soletaken empire, after it?
He needs to make a time line out when everything happened, sometimes I think he gets carried away with say this happened 100,000 of years ago, then the next creature is also 100,000 old but they both lived in different time zones
Take the tiste Andii, Korlat said if the 1000 Tiste joined their powers together it could devestate the continent, then why was their a need to destroy Moon Spawn and so many armys to get rid of the Seer.
Just when you thought you meet the big bad of the magic world and he exits stage left, another one is introduced from the right of the stage.
Also I think the time lines get very mixed up, what with tiste, T'lan, Jaghut, Kallor, 1st Empires, CG, etc
Kallor says he can remeber when the T'lan were still children, but he's Human, he had a great empire, but it wasnt the first, etc, so was he around before the Soletaken empire, after it?
He needs to make a time line out when everything happened, sometimes I think he gets carried away with say this happened 100,000 of years ago, then the next creature is also 100,000 old but they both lived in different time zones
#127 Guest_Duiker_*
Posted 07 February 2004 - 07:14 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Fool:
Well, 'quite a few' isnt 'an equal amount' or anything like that. But it's not 'none' either.
I agree with that. I never said 'none', I just put in perspective how much 'quite a few' was in our own history. But when reading the Malazan books I just get the feeling that Erikson did 'quite a few' but didn't stop there. Anyway this is of course a personal thing. Some people think it dead on, some might think there are to few, some might think there are to many.
quote:
And i am just pointing out that if women were allowed to join they would make for some good soldiers as can be seen at the time when they were allowed to. Maybe the Malazans realized it.
So even if it didnt happen alot in our world its not unrealistic.
Well, all I got to say to that is that since it didn't happen in our history, there must be a reason for it. A certain reason that has not yet been entered into this discussion. Because if there would have been no reason at all, then you can say for damn sure that some smart bunch would have figured it out and did their advantage with it (just like you suggest the Malazans did). But this is just a hypothetical point of view I adhere and it is not necissarily the truth.
quote:
Like women would just break down and cry if you sent them into battle or something like that.
I never said that and if it came across like that I never meant it.
Also, maybe we are just overstretching this point now...
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#129
caladanbrood
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Posted 20 June 2005 - 04:56 AM
No Longhorn
WnV, I agree with all your points there. Well argued
WnV, I agree with all your points there. Well argued
O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde; keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.
#130 Guest_BAD_*
Posted 08 June 2005 - 06:59 AM
A lot of them are in the army and therfore are 'Army Grunts'. Makes sense really. I think the first grunt was done by Dujek in GotM, by far it was the best. 
Similar user name above.
Similar user name above.
#131 Guest_Niko III_*
Posted 04 January 2004 - 03:14 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Scabandari Bloodeye:
it bothers me that human (and other) civilizations that have existed for 8000 years (Ehrlitan etc) have not undergone Industrial Revolution. It wouldn't help the story, I realize that, but I always feel that scientific development is too slow in fantasy. QUOTE]
Scab raise a valid point, but to quote David Landes (and in this case Jack Goldstone also): "Culture makes all the difference."
-In the matter of the industrial revolution!
China existed as a unity for about 4000 years, and still they had to import the IR.
Never look a man in the eye if you can shoot him in the back.
it bothers me that human (and other) civilizations that have existed for 8000 years (Ehrlitan etc) have not undergone Industrial Revolution. It wouldn't help the story, I realize that, but I always feel that scientific development is too slow in fantasy. QUOTE]
Scab raise a valid point, but to quote David Landes (and in this case Jack Goldstone also): "Culture makes all the difference."
-In the matter of the industrial revolution!
China existed as a unity for about 4000 years, and still they had to import the IR.
Never look a man in the eye if you can shoot him in the back.
#132
Arkmam
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Posted 08 June 2005 - 10:22 AM
quote:A lot of them are in the army and therfore are 'Army Grunts'. Makes sense really. I think the first grunt was done by Dujek in GotM, by far it was the best.
That has to be the least logical parallel ever drawn by man
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#133 Guest_LooseCannon_*
Posted 26 December 2003 - 07:46 PM
The only thing that bothers me about his works are that all the soldiers seem to be cookie cutter grizzled veterans in that they have no respect for authority and also don't seem to fear anything. I'm not saying I want to read a ten page account of how a character is scared of an upcoming battle or something but a little more variety between Malazan soldiers and other soldier's personalities would be welcome.
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#134 Guest_egt_*
Posted 13 February 2004 - 01:59 AM
DD: Good point...further horseback bowmen (women)should be an area where the case of brute strength is real not important...
#135 Guest_Sergeant Whiskeyjack_*
Posted 08 June 2005 - 09:04 AM
Similar user name in Fantasyessentials.net
#136
Folken
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Posted 17 June 2005 - 06:58 AM
Patch, normally with the Sith, the Master gets killed by the Apprentice
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#137 Guest_Fool_*
Posted 07 February 2004 - 07:03 AM
Well, 'quite a few' isnt 'an equal amount' or anything like that. But it's not 'none' either.
And i am just pointing out that if women were allowed to join they would make for some good soldiers as can be seen at the time when they were allowed to. Maybe the malazans realized it.
So even if it didnt happen a lot in our world its not unrealistic. Like women would just break down and cry if you sent them into battle or something like that.
And i am just pointing out that if women were allowed to join they would make for some good soldiers as can be seen at the time when they were allowed to. Maybe the malazans realized it.
So even if it didnt happen a lot in our world its not unrealistic. Like women would just break down and cry if you sent them into battle or something like that.
#138 Guest__*
Posted 13 February 2004 - 12:26 PM
@Dark Daze
I think that is why that makes erikson such a good writer because there isn't any mindless babble about "when they get home", is that interesting? Not to me anyway. I hate when authors are too much "creative" and not enough "writing".
You can liken it to RPG i guess, a good DM will skip the two weeks travelling between two towns (unless there is a scene to further the plot), put in a few randomn encounters and have done with it. A "creative" DM will describe it in painstaking detail and will not be DM'ng for a while.
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I think that is why that makes erikson such a good writer because there isn't any mindless babble about "when they get home", is that interesting? Not to me anyway. I hate when authors are too much "creative" and not enough "writing".
You can liken it to RPG i guess, a good DM will skip the two weeks travelling between two towns (unless there is a scene to further the plot), put in a few randomn encounters and have done with it. A "creative" DM will describe it in painstaking detail and will not be DM'ng for a while.
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Masher of the Late HHT - "Grrrrrrr!!! Wash my cup and die evil doer."
"I ain't gettin' on no plane fool!" - BA Barracus
#139 Guest_korik_*
Posted 31 January 2004 - 12:49 AM
ummm not me, i dont remember saying anything like that
im not really sure about the whole female soliders thing, it might be plausible it might not. thats why i didnt really post about it. it does strike me as a good idea for recruiting more soliders tho, you are doubling the population that you can recruit from.
im not really sure about the whole female soliders thing, it might be plausible it might not. thats why i didnt really post about it. it does strike me as a good idea for recruiting more soliders tho, you are doubling the population that you can recruit from.
#140 Guest_writernotviking_*
Posted 20 June 2005 - 11:37 AM
quote:Originally posted by Skrzypek:
Valid points, but based on the assumptions that there's no possibility to defend some part of Hissar. No idea, how the city was built. Wasn't there some kind of castle?
There was a keep inside Hissar, but it would never have been large enough to hold the army, the refugees and the cattle. Also, the walls had already been broken at several points.
quote:Another factor: in the battlefield the refugees are useless. Behind the walls they can support soldiers, throwing rocks isn't that hard.
Such would only be useful in a direct assault on walls which are still standing. Taking down the walls of the objective you are besieging is a common means of assault. As for supporting soldiers in other ways, such as acting as nurses, runners, cooks, or ammunition carriers, they could do this on the Chain of Dogs as well.
quote:The idea I try to present is close to the one of Alexander: a well fortified camp and a mobile striking force around.
The camp could also serve as hospital, which in turn would allow Coltaine to let his warriors heal.
Alexander the Great was a conqueror, who was constantly gaining new terriroties. He never stayed in one place for long, and never had to defend his cities from attack. The relevance of his strategies to the idea of the Seventh holding Hissar is therefore limited.
Defending Hissar as a city would be impossible for such a small force. It is not mentioned how large Hissar is, but Coltaine escorted several tens of thousands of refugees from that city alone. Given the fact that these were all Malazan, and that they must have been a minority in the city even before many of them were slaughtered, one can expect Hissar to hold some 150,000 souls, at least. The Seventh consisted of some 7,500 soldiers when it was quartered in the city, and we can expect the Wickan tribes to have been some 5,000 warriors strong in total. This force would have to defend a massive city from an army that would, eventually, number several hundred thousands, and with very limited tactical options at that.
quote:quote:
In any case, holed up in a city the army as well as the refugees would have been more susceptible to disease. One tactic in siege warfare is to use catapults to launch rotting animal (or human) corpses over the walls and into the streets. The carcasses would spread disease quickly, and because the city was under siege, the only way to get rid of the bodies was to burn them, which was slow going. Nothing would have prevented the rebels from using this tactic.
Yes, but it's still uncertain if with such a high concentration of magic, as in the world of Malaz, such diseases can be any problem. No infection troubled the combined armies of Caladan Brood and Dujek, although Capustan was a mess, which could easily breed any germs ne can imagine.
I will accept that, since we know too little of the nature of magic in this case, the point cannot be argued either way.
quote:quote:
It is not a minor problem. Marching across the continent meant the Seventh Army was able to take in water at several locations, storing it to last until the next source of water.
[cut]
Which, in turn, meant that it's easy to find Coltaine, to set a trap and to prapare battlefield for his coming. One just needed to wait for him at the nearest spring.
At which point Coltaine could fight a battle on open ground, where he could use his Wickans to their fullest advantage, as opposed to a drawn out siege, where the whole continent would know where Coltaine was, and his Wickans would have been unable to employ their usual tactics.
quote:quote:
Skrzypek: Although the book is less than clear about where Korbolo Dom kept his forces before the uprising, a plausible assumption is that he was encamped in Raraku. Looking at the map, it is clear that Raraku was much closer to Hissar than Aren. It wouldn't have taken Korbolo Dom long to reach Hissar and besiege the city.
He wasn't at Raraku, I'd say. He led the rebellion at some city, I can't remember the name.
I looked it up. He was in charge of the garrison at Halaf, which is even closer to Hissar.
quote:Another points: Coltaine without refugees could march faster and intercept armies, as they come. He fought more than one army many times, but most of the time he found himself in such trouble, because it was easy to see, where he will move next. Acting around Hissar, he could choose the place and time of the battle.
He could not. Enemy armies would be in a position to threaten the refugees inside the city, thus dictating his movements. And even when he engaged one army, another would be free to attack the city, which would be next to defenceless.
This brings me to a different point. Kamist Reloe and Korbolo Dom never forced full-scale battle on Coltaine except on difficult terrain. I believe that, if they had attacked Coltaine and the Seventh on flat ground, they could have surrounded them and won the battle by sheer weight of numbers.
quote:quote:
It is a general rule in warfare that action is preferable to inaction. Initiative is superior to apathy.
Sure. But action doesn't have to mean 'march onwards, and wait for the wonder'. Half on his way Coltaine had to be saved by miracles. What was he hoping for? Did he know how the Khundryl would behave? Did he know of the support of Trygalle Guild?
When Coltaine marched out from Hissar, he expected to have at least a half dozen viable destinations to choose from. He assumed that there would be other cities still held by Malazan forces. He did not intend to have to march all the way to Aren. Also, a great deal of the Malazan forces defected, greatly increasing the size of the armies deployed against Coltaine. To put it bluntly, he figured he'd have a much easier job than he did.
quote:quote:
Staying at Hissar would have completely and irrevocably granted the initiative to the rebels. Cities are more vulnerable than armies, and the only reason cities are defended is that the city is more valuable than the army. In Coltaine's case this was not true, as the city no longer held anything of value.
Yes, but the march led him into the middle of territory of the enemy and forced him to follow the trail of water sources.
I've never talked about holding he whole Army in Hissar. Closing them all in the fortress was not an option. But marching wasn't a good option either, which is shown by the results of the CoD. Holding the territory around Hissar, staying mobile, beating the enemies one after another and waiting for supoport seems a much better tactics for me.
There would have been no support for half a year, which is far too long. Also, you assume the rebel commanders to all have been so stupid as to engage Coltaine one by one, instead of waiting for the rest and combining into a larger force. Furthermore, as stated above, the fact that the refugees were kept in Hissar would have limited Coltaine's mobility, not improved it.
What were the results of the Chain of Dogs?
Several tens of thousands of rebel warriors were killed. Some forty thousand Malazan refugees were rescued. The Khundryl allied themselves with the Malazans.
The Seventh Army was destroyed. Coltaine was killed. The Wickan tribes were destroyed.
And yet, if we look at the negative results from the Chain of Dogs, they need not have happened if not for the staggering incompetence and cowardice of High Fist Pormqual. He could have led reinforcements to Coltaine. He could have ordered the Seven Cities fleet to assist Coltaine, which it could certainly have done, considering that in House of Chains, the fleet recaptures Ubaryd on its own.
If not for Pormqual, The Seventh Army, as well as the Wickan tribes and the vast majority of the refugees would have survived the Chain of Dogs.
