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Criticism of Malazan Book of the Fallen
#102 Guest_writernotviking_*
Posted 20 June 2005 - 07:45 AM
quote:Originally posted by caladanbrood:
No Longhorn
WnV, I agree with all your points there. Well argued
Thank you.
#103
Wanderer 
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Posted 29 April 2005 - 01:15 AM
Right first off, Erikson is a legend. The man has more in his books than nealy any other Fantasy novel out there. The only problem i have with his books is the way in which everything changes from one thing to next really fast. In DG when Kalam is trying to kill the empress( i know she wasnt there) he suddenly goes from an all out war on the assasins in a vain attempt to reach her and kill her to just leaving her.
I was so confused. He'd worked so hard and then just walked away. can any explain?
I was so confused. He'd worked so hard and then just walked away. can any explain?
#104 Guest_writernotviking_*
Posted 20 June 2005 - 01:48 PM
@ Brood:
Yes, I asked by PM and he told me. What can I say? "Way cool", that's what.
Sorry. @Longhorn: I really am flattered.
Yes, I asked by PM and he told me. What can I say? "Way cool", that's what.
Sorry. @Longhorn: I really am flattered.
#105 Guest_Arakasi_*
Posted 14 January 2004 - 12:38 AM
See the thing about characters not being all that deep really doesn't bother me at all. Heck no one ever criticizes Tolkien for no character depth. Sam as I recall is the only character to ever really change. Perhaps Aragorn a bit too. And yes while Erikson has archetypes like the female soldiers I think he has plenty of originality where he needs it. What really is the difference between the hordes of female soldiers and the hordes of knights in ASOIAF? The philosophizing I can see but it never really bugged me. 
So with Tolkien and Erikson I look at it as pretty much of the same. Less emphasis on character developement. Strong worlds, huge history and very tragic and epic. Right now I am rereading ASOIAF (my second favorite series to MBOTF) and I still enjoy Erikson more, despite Martin's stronger characters. (I'm also in a reread of Erikson) To me the plot and the emotion and the imagery in the books make up for that.
As for what does bug me there isn't all that much I can think of. Sometimes in MoI the story lagged a little but it picked back up. As for Mhybe sure she was a bit annoying but I tried to understand where she was coming from. In truth Silverfox bugged me more. I do agree that Erikson should give more physical description to characters. It is not that he is bad at it, it's just that he rarely chooses to do it. It would help more in differentiating characters to many fans I would think.
All fled, all done, so lift me on the pyre. The feast is over, the lamps expire.
So with Tolkien and Erikson I look at it as pretty much of the same. Less emphasis on character developement. Strong worlds, huge history and very tragic and epic. Right now I am rereading ASOIAF (my second favorite series to MBOTF) and I still enjoy Erikson more, despite Martin's stronger characters. (I'm also in a reread of Erikson) To me the plot and the emotion and the imagery in the books make up for that.
As for what does bug me there isn't all that much I can think of. Sometimes in MoI the story lagged a little but it picked back up. As for Mhybe sure she was a bit annoying but I tried to understand where she was coming from. In truth Silverfox bugged me more. I do agree that Erikson should give more physical description to characters. It is not that he is bad at it, it's just that he rarely chooses to do it. It would help more in differentiating characters to many fans I would think.
All fled, all done, so lift me on the pyre. The feast is over, the lamps expire.
#106 Guest_Skrzypek_*
Posted 14 June 2005 - 12:10 PM
quote:Originally posted by Suese:
MOI spoilers
I am getting hung up on why in the hell Whiskeyjack and Dujek decided to split up their forces after the alliance with Brood started to crumble. Seems like poor, poor planning and strategy with no real point other than to set the stage for WJ's and BB's deaths. I thought I would get a better insight into the military situation when I reread the books, but it's not there.
I agree with this one.
Another issue: after rereading DG I couldn't understand, why Coltaine left Hissar. He knew that reinforcements from Malaz will come by sea. He knew that no help from Porqual can be expected and the small garrisons will be sweeped. So... why not wait and beat the rebel armies one by one?
Another point - why did Oponn take part in the Darujhistan mess?
SE is very good, but sometimes he builds plot on dubious ideas.
And I agree with the character point. Soldiers, insane magicians of inscrutable powers - these he creates very fast. For a more interesting hero (Karsa, Itkovian, Trull Sengar) he needs an entire book. And even then he sometimes fails (Seren Pedac and Hull Beddic for xample).
#107
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Posted 29 April 2005 - 11:19 AM
quote:Originally posted by Morgoth:
he realised that Laseens actions were born out of necessity rather than just a need for power. He also realised she was a fitting occupier of the throne and that she probably would take care of the empire. When all was said and done, Kalam felt first and foremost that his duty lay with the Empire, and Laseen's actions had been for the empire and not herself.. Name one conqueror fit to rule after the basis of the empire has been built?
@ Morgoth... but don't let it go to your head...
#108 Guest_Skrzypek_*
Posted 20 June 2005 - 10:43 AM
@Adaephon Ben Delat
Right, right, right.
I like CoD very much, can't imagine the book being built around the story of Coltaine staying in Hissar (although the siege of Capustan and he fate of Itkovian is my all time favourite).
But, you know, we are expected to be anal-retentive in this thread. :-) We all agree that the books are great, otherwise we wouldn't be here would we?
PS: Pratchett was fun until 'Lords and ladies'. Than he started repeating himself. But it's a theme for another thread
Right, right, right.
I like CoD very much, can't imagine the book being built around the story of Coltaine staying in Hissar (although the siege of Capustan and he fate of Itkovian is my all time favourite).
But, you know, we are expected to be anal-retentive in this thread. :-) We all agree that the books are great, otherwise we wouldn't be here would we?
PS: Pratchett was fun until 'Lords and ladies'. Than he started repeating himself. But it's a theme for another thread
#109
Folken
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Posted 16 June 2005 - 02:03 PM
OWNED! The Dark Side is helping you Morgoth
<div align='center'>You must always strive to be the best, but you must never believe that you are - Juan Manuel Fangio</div>
#110
Fist Gamet
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Posted 29 December 2003 - 07:52 AM
That's a hard one, but I think that it lets itself down on the way the soldiers are portrayed too. I don't know if it is just SE's style or if he tries a bit too hard to make them really cool and likeable but I always felt that they had a cynical, worldly-wise attitude that just seems out of place in the kind of world he sets. It is hard to explain but I often found myself wondering how the hell the bridgeburners could have survived for so long given that they avoid combat and live by their wits. This may be because those that remain are veterans but I always felt that without Munitions they would have perished long ago.
The dead are like a silent, conquering army.
With every battle their ranks grow,
Marching, inexhaustible, each and every one,
Beneath crumbling stone banners. - The Call of Hurgana
The dead are like a silent, conquering army.
With every battle their ranks grow,
Marching, inexhaustible, each and every one,
Beneath crumbling stone banners. - The Call of Hurgana
Victory is mine!
#111
Morgoth
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Posted 17 June 2005 - 02:51 AM
quote:Originally posted by Leoman Of The Flails:
Maybe I should turn to the Dark Side...
There is room for one but one master and one aprentice.. You must wait until i've learned all that I can from my master and then... Who knows, there may be room for you
Take good care to keep relations civil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
#112
caladanbrood
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Posted 29 January 2004 - 08:15 AM
DD - i dunno what your comment is supposed to say but if its what i think, thats a strength of malazan, that it isn't medieval the only problem with stuff like aSoIaF for example is that its in a medieval world, and tries to be as medieval as possible... what i love about erikson is that it is nothing like medieval, which is great a nice change anyway
¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬
O xein angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti tede,
keimentha tois keinon rhemasi peithomenoi.
Unaligned - Obelisk - Friend of Asterisk.
Come and see knefles's hat!!!
but if its what i think, thats a strength of malazan, that it isn't medieval the only problem with stuff like aSoIaF for example is that its in a medieval world, and tries to be as medieval as possible... what i love about erikson is that it is nothing like medieval, which is great a nice change anyway¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬
O xein angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti tede,
keimentha tois keinon rhemasi peithomenoi.
Unaligned - Obelisk - Friend of Asterisk.
Come and see knefles's hat!!!
O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde; keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.
#113 Guest_Zakari_*
Posted 29 January 2004 - 02:38 PM
You've got a good point there..
I did wonder how the hell Korlat and WJ got it on, on the strength of a few words..or how Tattersail and Paran did it once, and then they both have endless thoughts about their lovers...
Man - Wish I could pull like that.
I did wonder how the hell Korlat and WJ got it on, on the strength of a few words..or how Tattersail and Paran did it once, and then they both have endless thoughts about their lovers...
Man - Wish I could pull like that.
#114 Guest_Zakari_*
Posted 14 January 2004 - 11:47 AM
I have to say that for me, Erikson waxes lyrical and philosophical more than anyone i've ever read. You hear the thoughts and feelings of every character at regular intervals..
Also - I know the series focuses on important events, but woah are there too many ascendants, and other powerful players around...it's like a Marvel Convention.
Having said that - the sheer scale of the writing makes it the only writer who's paragraphs i often have to reread, just to remember what the hell is going on.
There appears to have been no attempt to rein in the writing...it's like the Extended Director's Cut version... and i think it's fantastic..
Also - I know the series focuses on important events, but woah are there too many ascendants, and other powerful players around...it's like a Marvel Convention.
Having said that - the sheer scale of the writing makes it the only writer who's paragraphs i often have to reread, just to remember what the hell is going on.
There appears to have been no attempt to rein in the writing...it's like the Extended Director's Cut version... and i think it's fantastic..
#115 Guest_stonerman_*
Posted 17 June 2005 - 10:19 AM
the only thing I dislike is the inconsistencies that come up in a few places like:
In DG Kalam uses a white paralt knife and the assasin he stabs is dead before he hits the ground. But when the witch derudan is stabbed, crokus and baruk for a minute or two and then give her the antidote and she's fine
the power inconsistencies, one azalan demon kills a hundred men in a minute, but the deragoth can tear apart a dozen azalan demons, and then toblakai kills both deragoth, and he is definately not as fast an an azalan
in GOTM it says the moons spawn enfilade was a childs cantrip compared to the sorcery of the tlan imass bonecasters" but a bonecaster had trouble killing l'orics familiar, some pitiful bird demon
Rake says serrat could kill him if he broke his word, but Vorcan beat the crap out of Serrat in like 5 seconds, so Vorcan fled from four hunters when ten of them couldn't defeat a demon that rake easily could, when rake is about as powerful as vorcan? didn't seem to fit
and then shadowthrone, he is always giggling insanely, breaking deals, betraying people, and always coming across as a lot dumber than the rope. Yet he is the honourable emperor Kellanved who inspired loyalty and bound together the old guard with faith and companionship, and also used his razor sharp cunning to go froma barkeep to an emperor, always struck me as odd
In DG Kalam uses a white paralt knife and the assasin he stabs is dead before he hits the ground. But when the witch derudan is stabbed, crokus and baruk for a minute or two and then give her the antidote and she's fine
the power inconsistencies, one azalan demon kills a hundred men in a minute, but the deragoth can tear apart a dozen azalan demons, and then toblakai kills both deragoth, and he is definately not as fast an an azalan
in GOTM it says the moons spawn enfilade was a childs cantrip compared to the sorcery of the tlan imass bonecasters" but a bonecaster had trouble killing l'orics familiar, some pitiful bird demon
Rake says serrat could kill him if he broke his word, but Vorcan beat the crap out of Serrat in like 5 seconds, so Vorcan fled from four hunters when ten of them couldn't defeat a demon that rake easily could, when rake is about as powerful as vorcan? didn't seem to fit
and then shadowthrone, he is always giggling insanely, breaking deals, betraying people, and always coming across as a lot dumber than the rope. Yet he is the honourable emperor Kellanved who inspired loyalty and bound together the old guard with faith and companionship, and also used his razor sharp cunning to go froma barkeep to an emperor, always struck me as odd
#116 Guest_Medium-Paced Ben_*
Posted 14 January 2004 - 07:46 AM
Malarion, I agree with you about the mythic quality in Malazan, and I think that Erikson's knowledge of archaeology and anthropology comes in good stead and helps to make his cultures and history believable, with a lot of depth and detail. His battle sequences are also breathtaking, if sometimes a bit overdone (Capustan).
As to the issue of female soldiers, the question that always comes to my mind is pregnancy. In a society without easily-available and reliable forms of contraception, the rate of pregnancy would be rather high in any sexually active population, and from what we've seen the soldiers in MBOTF have their fair share of rolls in the hay, so to speak.
It would seem to me to be a logistical nightmare in the case of, say, Dujek's army in MOI, which according to the statistics given was almost half made up of females. Personally, I wouldn't want to be campaigning with an army in which almost half the soldiers run the risk of falling pregnant.
And yes, I *know* that it's a "fantasy" world, and there are all sorts of magical reasons why things work differently. Just me being pedantic I guess.
"The Priest of Elder Mael dreams rising seas"
As to the issue of female soldiers, the question that always comes to my mind is pregnancy. In a society without easily-available and reliable forms of contraception, the rate of pregnancy would be rather high in any sexually active population, and from what we've seen the soldiers in MBOTF have their fair share of rolls in the hay, so to speak.
It would seem to me to be a logistical nightmare in the case of, say, Dujek's army in MOI, which according to the statistics given was almost half made up of females. Personally, I wouldn't want to be campaigning with an army in which almost half the soldiers run the risk of falling pregnant.
And yes, I *know* that it's a "fantasy" world, and there are all sorts of magical reasons why things work differently. Just me being pedantic I guess.
"The Priest of Elder Mael dreams rising seas"
#117
Svaran
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Posted 25 July 2005 - 01:50 AM
quote:Originally posted by Thorokin:
My major criticism is the utter lack of romance or sexuality. The vast majority of sex in the Malazan world seems to be between any two convenient people, to relieve tension. Or boredom. Hetan pointing at Gruntle and saying "I ride you now" may be amusing, but it isn't very satisfying emotionally for the reader.
The supposedly romantic relationships aren't any better. Paran and Tattersail had nothing in common, they didn't seem to connect on an emotional or physical level... it seemed like more of a plot device than anything else. And Whiskeyjack and Korlat... /shrug. They met, they talked, Korlat said "Come to my tent, human," and they spent a few chapters hinting at having sex. That was it.
It's a small complaint, considering the vast amount that Erikson does so amazingly well. I'd much rather have detailed battles and heartbreaking last stands than endless chapters of dashing young nobles declaring their undying love for fair maidens. I just don't think it's quite right that in a work as massive and impressive as the Malazan, the most emotionally tender moment between two characters is Picker slipping her arm around Blend and murmuring "It's down to what the night hides..."
Actually I think Erickson's depiction of sex in the context of his stories has been very accurate.
#118 Guest_Quick_*
Posted 09 June 2005 - 10:44 AM
Everybody is fighting everybody. They even fight themselves. Sometimes they fight their own mothers, brothers, sisters, dogs, etc. etc. etc.
As with most fantasy you have to understand the world it is in. All of those writers are differnt. You won't find Brooks,Jordan, and others characters in SE's world.
Sit back and enjoy the ride. Best series ever.
As with most fantasy you have to understand the world it is in. All of those writers are differnt. You won't find Brooks,Jordan, and others characters in SE's world.
Sit back and enjoy the ride. Best series ever.
#119 Guest_Dark Daze_*
Posted 13 January 2004 - 05:19 PM
This was a trick topic. On Friday all of you will be banned.
#120 Guest_BAD_*
Posted 18 June 2005 - 03:56 AM
quote:Originally posted by Skrzypek:
@Imperial Historian
Well, you've convinced me about Dujek.
But Coltaine?
He managed to clear Hissar of rebels, he also beat the native army, leaving no significaant force that could threat him in a short run. He could leave Malazans and civilian in Hissar and let the Wickans destroy all small native forces around.
The united Malazan atmy could be build only after the orders from laseen have arrived. This means, that waiting in Hissar had another advantages.
Abnd supplies, supplies, supplies. It's easier to be supplied when you have a port around, than in the middle of the desert, where one can only hope for the good will of the author (in other words, the Trygalle Guild
/Tries to see that version as a book compared to the actual version.
Nope I don't think it would compare. You wouldn't have had all those insane battles (namely Sekala Crossing, and Valar Crossing and Balahn/Ramp/Barrow), with any kind of deep meaning due to the journey taken, the journey Duiker undertook to catch up with the 'Chain of Dogs', the Khundryl allying with the Wickans and all the highly entertaining banter between the sappers and Coltaine and the Old Guard Marines who make their way back. Just wouldn't have been the same without the journey. Why do people insist on wanting total reality in SFF books? Go read a history book for that.
And actually Coltaine sums it nicely, Page 797 DG:-
quote:'...You wear it Historian. All that we have done avails the world naught, unless the tale is told...'
Work out from that what you will.
