[Mentalist]

blackzoid, on 08 July 2014 - 10:20 PM, said:

David Luiz. Learn...to...stay...with your assigned man.

He is not the only one guilty, though. On every one of those 4 lightning goal replays, there's a different yellow shirt completely out of position, instead of marking the scorer.

[Jakovasaurus]

"A Waxing of Brazilians"

[Brujah]

Now that was fun. I so wanted Brazil to get beat, but losing so bad as the host team was Awesome. I may not know soccer well, but an asskicking like that is universally understood.

[amphibian]

Most of the goals originated from play on the German right side - where Marcelo was going up to attack and there wasn't the right kind of coverage behind him from Luis Gustavo, David Luiz and Dante.

Fernandinho, Bernard and Fred didn't do squat to help him either. They turned the ball over a few times at baaaaad places.

The first goal was Klose screening - like something from the NBA playbooks - David Luiz and Mueller taking advantage of that. The rest of it onwards was mostly Kroos, Lahm and Oezil slicing through the Brazilians again and again.

[Andorion]

This is sweet sweet payback for 2002. I stil remember Oliver Kahn just slumped dejectedy beside the goalpost.

[amphibian]

Neuer is keeping the eccentric German keeper thing going strong though.

Kahn, Lehmann, Neuer, who's next in the string?

[Andorion]

After this victory, Germany likely champs?

[Dolmen 2.0]

Mentalist, on 08 July 2014 - 10:03 PM, said:

that last goal honestly made it look like the game was thrown.


I don't think it was, but seriously, it's like a perfect script.

On a serious note: forget Neymar, Silva clearly carried this team. I watched the last half of the Brazil-Mexico game (having 0 knowledge of the Brazilian team), and I could see that plain as day.

Brazilian D was in shambles the second they stepped on the field. Their marking was awful. Germans were strolling into the box unmarked.

Basically, if I was to put in one word the difference between the two teams it would be "vision". Germans are such an impressive team, because they always know where to pass and where to be to receive the pass.

The only person on the Brazillian team who could organize the squad to keep aware of where everyone was is, apparently, Silva.

Also, Brazillians needed to shoot on the first touch when in the box, but that's nothing compared to letting in seven (!!!!!!!!!!) goals.

wow. Just.. wow.

That was an epic match.

Its almost like Julio Cesar was alone on the pitch against the Germans. How many saves did the man make and or atleast try to make after someone spilled the ball?

The rebounds kept landing at German feet because they were always on. Brazilian defence just didn't have a clue. Silva was indeed the pin holding that team together. Positioning was terrible and the Germans were in amazing form. They just knew where all the gaps would be.

It scares me to think the likes Gotze and Podolski didn't even see the pitch.

Of the last three teams remaining I'm still egging a Netherlands victory but man oh man have Germany proven themselves this world cup.

[Mentalist]

Andorion, on 09 July 2014 - 04:53 AM, said:

After this victory, Germany likely champs?

Depends on the outcome of the match tomorrow. I'd give Germany better odds against Netherlands. If they play Argentina, they'll have a much tougher time, imho.

otoh, Argentina didn't have a spectacular WC so far. They've scraped through so far, but Netherlands will be toughest test yet

Germany is the best when it comes to team play. Argentina has the factor of Messi--which means their game plan revolves around how many players the other coach assigns to guard Messi, and thus, how much space this will give to second tier Argentine stars to try to win the game without a Messi-induced miracle.

Netherlands is a mix-their team play is great, though I would argue not on par with Germany, because they don't have as fine a control and ability to maintain possession as the Germans do. On the other hand, Netherlands has more "star" players who are capable of playing with individual flair and making the difference even if team performance isn't always up to par.

Out of the 3 possible contenders, all can lay a legitimate claim to being the best.

I'm hoping for an all-euro final showdown, myself. With Argentina taking third. I like both Germany and Netherlands, so I'll be happy no matter who wins. I'd probably have a soft spot for Netherlands, because they are 3 time runners up in the WC but haven't won it yet.

So, to answer your original question: today's victory only really points out how inadequate Brazil's claim to the Cup was.

[amphibian]

Andorion, on 09 July 2014 - 04:53 AM, said:

After this victory, Germany likely champs?

Their center backs are vulnerable to speed (pretty much any team is, but the Germans have constructed their team in a way that leaves the speed on the wings and in Mueller).

Algeria did a fantastic job in their match against Germany by playing defensive, pressuring the hell out of Lahm and Schweinsteiger, then chipping/threading the ball for Slimani, Soudani and Feghouli to go beat Boateng and Mertesacker to. Neuer absolutely had to go play sweeper keeper four or five times because the German defense was beat. The Germans sort of benefited from Mustafi getting hurt and Lahm going to right back to follow behind Schurrle, who was pinning back Ghoulam more than Goetze/Mueller was.

Holland has Robben, van Persie and Memphis Depay to go up top with. That's a tough array to defend and it gets tougher with Blind and Kuyt giving excellent passes from either wing (although Blind has moved more central lately) and Sneijder floating around, doing what he does.

Hummels playing a full half today was encouraging and his sub means Low is smart about his recovery. It means that Mertesacker can be left out (great positioning, good on set plays, but sloooow), Boateng stays central and Lahm stays on the right back. The Germans are going to have trouble with the Dutch attack no matter what, but this is pretty much the best defense they could offer (although Howedes isn't exactly great at left back).

Argentina is a bit different in that they look for Messi to slice from right to left with traffic in front of him or to pass to a speedster going up the right. Aguero is supposedly back, but I dunno how healthy he'll be and Di Maria being out is a huge shift in the offense and defense. Germany can probably just switch off the Messi and Higuain assignments without that much trouble.

[amphibian]

Hah, Mentalist and I disagree over who's a better match-up for Germany in the finals.

[Gothos]

I'll state right here that I'm an absolute amateur when it comes to footie and I in no way am trying to come off as an expert.

I'm still rooting for ze Germans to defeat either possibility in the finals. Their defense line is very much like the one we had back in 1974, with monsters dressed in football attire guarding the box. Each of those defenders is like a mountain that kicks, and I can see forwards just bouncing off ineffectually most of the time.

Though it has to be said, even Brazil in its sorry state penetrated that defense with quick jabs more than several times.

It's control of the midfield that would define the game with Netherlands, and high field pressure with Argentina, and Germany can handle both like no other team right now probably. We'll see how the confrontation goes today, I wonder if we'll see another bout of merciless execution or a close competition (we just have to keep in mind that the Dutch have gone through ET and Penalties in the qf, bit more tired maybe?)

[Tsundoku]

Tapper, on 08 July 2014 - 09:29 PM, said:

The rains of Rio de Janeiro, indeed.

The new Brasilian national anthem?

I watched the start and left for work at 1-0 thinking "Brasil marking needs to improve, but we'll see what happens".

Switched on the radio for the drive and the news came on: half time 5-0. WTF??????????????

Got to work, did PT and then raced back to the car and switched the radio on to hear final score 7-1. People walking past asked me what was up as I was just sitting there going "WTF?" and shaking my head. I told them, and even complete soccer noobs did their own version of Tim Cahill's reaction. That's how big that news was.

Wow.

[Defiance]

From reddit: http://i.imgur.com/fUostqs.jpg

[HoosierDaddy]

Thia is a serious WTF moment in host history. Good God almighty Brazil got their panties pulled down and fingerfucked over and over again. This wasn't a beat down, this was a masterclass in buggerdom of the highest order.

Neymar was a loss, but not of this order. This Brazil team was always weak as fuck on defense and Germany were always ready to build the 4th Football Reich with their squad. But, hot damn this has to burn like hellfire for the Brazilians.

[Brujah]

[Mentalist]

amphibian, on 09 July 2014 - 05:46 AM, said:

Hah, Mentalist and I disagree over who's a better match-up for Germany in the finals.

I missed the most of the 1/16 games, and I didn't watch Germany play USA, or the Dutch-Chile game. So my understanding is skewed by what games I've seen.

Dutch have the flair, but are worse when it comes to final passes. It also remains to be seen if they've gotten over their inability to score from the Costa Rica game (RVP tripping over the ball with an open net 2 feet away... I'm STILL not quite over that).

Argentina lost Di Maria, but they get Rojo back and he's another playmaker down the wing.

No matter who gets to the final, it'll be entertaining matches.

[amphibian]

HoosierDaddy, on 09 July 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

Neymar was a loss, but not of this order. This Brazil team was always weak as fuck on defense and Germany were always ready to build the 4th Football Reich with their squad. But, hot damn this has to burn like hellfire for the Brazilians.

You were probably not sober when writing this, but the over the top sex references and Nazi reference isn't appreciated by me.

Addressing your other idea that Brazil had a weak defense now. That's a very interesting thing to talk about because Brazil brought something like 6 ball winning midfielders and some of the most expensive defensive players in the world to play. Each game saw them play two destroyers in central midfield, Fernandinho, Luis Gustavo, Paulinho amd Ramires.

On paper, that's a defense oriented team, even with Oscar, Hulk and Neymar up top. However, the collective effect of such a defensive team is that they can win the ball and break up the flow of an opponent's offense, but it's hard for them to establish one of their own and they turn the ball over often, which is bad in soccer like it's bad in basketball or American football.

So I and a few people I talk to in real life say that paradoxically, to have a better defense, Brazil needed more offensive oriented players. The kind of player who can hold onto the ball, make better runs on offense and create opportunities for Hulk and Neymar to boot the ball over the goal (which gives a goal kick and time for the defense to reset).

So basically, Coutinho and/or a fresh Kaka type would really have been appreciated, while Oscar dropped back to link the defense and offense.

Plus Thiago Silva seemed to have a huge role in coordination of cover for the fullbacks bombing up and down the field on either side. David Luiz couldn't do it last game.

[Mentalist]

amphibian, on 09 July 2014 - 03:26 PM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 09 July 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

Neymar was a loss, but not of this order. This Brazil team was always weak as fuck on defense and Germany were always ready to build the 4th Football Reich with their squad. But, hot damn this has to burn like hellfire for the Brazilians.

You were probably not sober when writing this, but the over the top sex references and Nazi reference isn't appreciated by me.

Addressing your other idea that Brazil had a weak defense now. That's a very interesting thing to talk about because Brazil brought something like 6 ball winning midfielders and some of the most expensive defensive players in the world to play. Each game saw them play two destroyers in central midfield, Fernandinho, Luis Gustavo, Paulinho amd Ramires.

On paper, that's a defense oriented team, even with Oscar, Hulk and Neymar up top. However, the collective effect of such a defensive team is that they can win the ball and break up the flow of an opponent's offense, but it's hard for them to establish one of their own and they turn the ball over often, which is bad in soccer like it's bad in basketball or American football.

So I and a few people I talk to in real life say that paradoxically, to have a better defense, Brazil needed more offensive oriented players. The kind of player who can hold onto the ball, make better runs on offense and create opportunities for Hulk and Neymar to boot the ball over the goal (which gives a goal kick and time for the defense to reset).

So basically, Coutinho and/or a fresh Kaka type would really have been appreciated, while Oscar dropped back to link the defense and offense.

Plus Thiago Silva seemed to have a huge role in coordination of cover for the fullbacks bombing up and down the field on either side. David Luiz couldn't do it last game.

Amph, you seem to know a ton more about this Brazilian team than me. But here's my impression, as someone who saw Brazil play the second half against Mexico, the entire game against Columbia, and the semifinal. Also of someone who's been playing exclusively defense on amateur level for about 11 years now:

Every team needs a person to yell at the back line, to be LOUD, and indicate to every single defender whenever there's someone that gets behind them, to yell at midfielders who to mark, etc. This could be the GK, this could be a winger, this could be (and usually is, on teams that don't rely on a single "star") a fullback.

Brazil had ONE player like that. Thiago Silva. He was everywhere in that Brazil box. He could command it, coordinate the team.

Without him, Brazilian defense turned into a bunch of schoolchildren. I'm sorry, but look at the replay of the 5th goal by Khedira: you have a 3 on 3 situation, 3 defenders running with 3 attackers. fast forward about 15 seconds: 3 attackers are lined up around the penalty spot, 3 defenders are on the goal line. WTF????????

Of the players I've seen on the pitch in the first 10 minutes before the slaughter began, I feel Maicon would've been the best bet for captain. Or maybe Cesar himself. Luiz had no idea how to run that team. Scolari screwed up completely with his captain pick, and it absolutely destroyed Brazil.

[Jakovasaurus]