[Binder of Demons]

I wouldn't get too fixated on who was the brazilian captain, as sometimes that can be a role in name only. You need people who act like captains.

The key to every successful team I can think of is to have a leader up the spine of the team. A good solid keeper, a good (loud) centre back, a good disciplined midfielder and a good striker. This minimises the likelihood of the team being pulled apart easily, as each key player can rally those around them and keep things organised.

I've played virtually every position on the field at a reasonably high level, and I can do a passable job at most of them except central midfield. I just can't manage it for some reason, but at least I recognise that fact. But from playing as a winger, full back and sweeper for years, I can tell you that the key is communication. And that is the one thing that seemed lacking in the Brazilian side. The full backs would overlap, and the wingers would just watch them go, leaving practically half a field empty for the germans to run into. It's pretty simple really, as a full back, you tell your winger to hold if you run forward, and he can tell you to stay or go.

The easy rule I give to young players in the back line, is to regularly check with your nearest team-mate every 30 secs or so. Eventually they'll be saying back to you to shut you up, but it means everyone is thinking of where they are relative to a team-mate. And you should only worry about 3 people on average. i.e. Full back keeps checking with nearest centre-back, winger, and nearest midfielder. The winger keeps talking to the full back, the nearest midfielder, and the nearest striker. And so on. Easy triangles. And easy to pass players along.

But Brazil have about 8 players playing with seemingly no regard for where their team-mates are, or are likely to be. They didn't track their men, switched off mentally repeatedly, and then tried to do hero ball to dig themselves out of trouble (diving into tackles and over committing in general). On at least 3 of the german goals, if a Brazilian defender had stayed on his feet rather than try and slide, he could have been in position to block the initial pass or the second pass).

If this had been a training game, as punishment after the first 4 goals and the lax defending everywhere, we would have probably been told to individually man mark our opponent and stick with them come hell or high water, just to see if we could follow that simple instruction. And only after doing that competently for 10 mins would we be allowed to try anything else. This was terrible coaching to begin with, but mentally appalling behaviour from the Brazilians. And David Luiz, and Marcello are the 2 poster children for this team in that regard. Highly skilled but selfish players with no positional discipline. I'd say Chelsea must be laughing that they got 50 million for Luiz.

But ultimately the coach must take the blame for this. He chose the squad and the team ethos, and had no plan B should Thiago Silva be removed from the equation.

I am genuinely curious as to how things will play out tonight though. Either of these teams (flawed as they are) could give the germans real problems in the final, as they have the speed to attack the german centre backs over the top if they play a high line. Will be interesting.

[polishgenius]

 Mentalist, on 09 July 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

Every team needs a person to yell at the back line, to be LOUD, and indicate to every single defender whenever there's someone that gets behind them, to yell at midfielders who to mark, etc. This could be the GK, this could be a winger, this could be (and usually is, on teams that don't rely on a single "star") a fullback.

Brazil had ONE player like that. Thiago Silva. He was everywhere in that Brazil box. He could command it, coordinate the team.

Without him, Brazilian defense turned into a bunch of schoolchildren. I'm sorry, but look at the replay of the 5th goal by Khedira: you have a 3 on 3 situation, 3 defenders running with 3 attackers. fast forward about 15 seconds: 3 attackers are lined up around the penalty spot, 3 defenders are on the goal line. WTF????????

To be fair, exactly the same is true of Germany and Hummels. The only thing that stopped Germany getting the same treatment they handed out yesterday from Algeria in the knockout stage was that Neuer is a much better keeper than Cesar - they were dreadful, and could comfortably have been out by half time. Even yesterday, when Hummels went off, Brazil suddenly got a couple of chances.

Which is quite surprising, because it's not as if Mertsersacker and Lahm (although Lahm wasn't in defence vs Algeria, to be fair) are noted for their timidity and lack of organisation usually.

[Binder of Demons]

But Mertesacker is the human equivalent of a giraffe, and has about the same turning radius. So if you get him turning and changing direction, he's screwed.

[amphibian]

 Binder of Demons, on 09 July 2014 - 04:38 PM, said:

I've played virtually every position on the field at a reasonably high level, and I can do a passable job at most of them except central midfield. I just can't manage it for some reason, but at least I recognise that fact.

CDM and CAM is where I was best. I am not fast, but I had good vision and great touch with both feet. But because I had American coaches, they stuck me on the left wing and left defense because I had a left foot where nobody else did. It sucked, but I didn't know enough to tell the coaches "No" as a youngster.

Quote

But ultimately the coach must take the blame for this. He chose the squad and the team ethos, and had no plan B should Thiago Silva be removed from the equation.

It's a bad enough game that I'm wondering if his success in 2002 was because there were undeniable choices in just about every position. His selection was basically made for him already, whereas this one, he had to hunt and guess for the right fit. Also, Brazil seems to have hit a bad streak for pure center forwards right about now.

Pato is hurt, Robinho was off form, Luis Fabiano is 33 and there was not a bumper crop of forwards from the youth squads.

[Mentalist]

Very careful game by both sides so far. Dutch seem to be trying to keep the ball away from Argentina the same way they did against Costa Rica.

playing 3 in the back doesn't leave them too many options on guarding messi, but they're holding up well so far, cept for Martins Indi's yellow

[Binder of Demons]

Disgusted to see Martins Indi get substituted at half time. I was holding out for karma to do a job on him too for his disgraceful behaviour in the earlier games. But it looked like he picked up some kind of injury just before the half. I really wanted him sent off or to properly injure himself doing another sneaky late challenge. But he's gone, so at least there is one less douchebag on the field.


Very cagey game, and you can see that both sides will have the discipline to cause Germany problems. Should warm up now as a bit of tiredness creeps in, and the space will begin to open up. that will probably favour the Dutch, but there's always Messi should their defenders switch off.

[Mentalist]

man, what a chance by Robben!

extra time. Is Van Haal saving up his last sub for Krul again?

[Mentalist]

Fuck.

GG to Argentina. I had no faith in Holland in penalties, I'll be honest.

great D by both sides. Best of luck to Germany.

[Binder of Demons]

Great chance for Robben, but a fantastic block by Mascerano. A perfect example to all Brazilian players about keeping switched on, and tracking the runner.

Delighted that the dutch were beaten. Can't forgive them for their behaviour in the opening game against Spain, and also against Australia. So I'm glad they're gone. And poetic that it was a penalty shoot out, after all the shite about Van Gaal's genius with the Krul sub in the last game.

I only feel sorry for Ron Vlaar and Dirk Kyut who put in a great effort.

But at least the best performance on the field came from the winners, Mascherano.

[Brujah]

I don't know enough of the subtleties to not find that game extremely boring. I feel rather cheated in watching it after the Brazil - Germany game. I'm kind of glad Argentina won though, because it pisses off Brazil even more, but having a game decided on penalties would feel like watching an NBA finals game 7 end in a tie, and having them have a free throw contest - just don't get the feel that the winning team accomplished anything. Unsatisfied.

[Tapper]

 amphibian, on 09 July 2014 - 06:50 PM, said:

 Binder of Demons, on 09 July 2014 - 04:38 PM, said:

I've played virtually every position on the field at a reasonably high level, and I can do a passable job at most of them except central midfield. I just can't manage it for some reason, but at least I recognise that fact.

CDM and CAM is where I was best. I am not fast, but I had good vision and great touch with both feet. But because I had American coaches, they stuck me on the left wing and left defense because I had a left foot where nobody else did. It sucked, but I didn't know enough to tell the coaches "No" as a youngster.

Quote

But ultimately the coach must take the blame for this. He chose the squad and the team ethos, and had no plan B should Thiago Silva be removed from the equation.

It's a bad enough game that I'm wondering if his success in 2002 was because there were undeniable choices in just about every position. His selection was basically made for him already, whereas this one, he had to hunt and guess for the right fit. Also, Brazil seems to have hit a bad streak for pure center forwards right about now.

Pato is hurt, Robinho was off form, Luis Fabiano is 33 and there was not a bumper crop of forwards from the youth squads.

I dunno. The country was basically screaming for Neymar to be the poster child of the team and I think Scolari didn't have to do too much searching; the names suggest themselves everywhere except at central defender (but can you by-pass Luiz?) and at the striker position.

He basically compiled a very standard 4-2-3-1 with a physical forward who can play with his back to the goal to tie up a central defender, adding an inside forward with a devastating shot in Hulk (Bernard as a classic winger in back-up) to use space and add a threat from the flank, Oscar on the other side as a more playmaking guy who can drop into midfield, and two destroyers with forward going options to back the number ten up. To compensate for the narrow shape, two overlapping wing backs - of which, theoretically, Brazil has the best ones in the world (even if Marcelo is too attacking for the taste of his last two coaches).

The problem is that it doesn't gel, the squad splits down the middle in midfield in matches with a quick pace and in slower matches, one central defender tries to play like a midfielder (which is what Mourinho did use Luiz for), putting the last defender in a one-on-one and crowding out the original midfielders, and that devastated the shape of the team, especially against a team like Germany that uses width and lots of midfielders running at the defense both diagonally (Ozil) and straight up (Muller, Khedira).

Argentina will have to find an answer for that, too. The two central defenders plus two holding midfielders (Mascherano and Biglia) basically stand an isolate a little square occupying no opposing players at all while the threat comes from further down the field and looks for space.

Netherlands.... well, a decent second half and extra time. I was surprised that Van Gaal played a non-fit De Jong, and then again not surprised because he's the only truly experienced holding midfielder we have, and better than the alternatives. Cost him a substitution that could have altered the shape of the team, though. Now it felt more like patching the machine up with bubble gum than shifting gears.

Binder, while I understand the vitriol for Martins Indi, who has been a confusing mix of clumsy and slightly dumb, take also into account that this is a guy of (around) 21 who plays in the Dutch top division on a team that hasn't had international club experience for years. He has international experience for the national team only at the youth level. He now played against Aguero, Higuain, Messi, Giovanni Dos Santos, Chicarito, Bryan Ruiz, Diego Costa.

Small wonder he miss-times stuff and/or makes more fouls.
Basically goes for the whole backline - except for Vlaar (and Blind, who has group stage Champions League experience).

[Mentalist]

 Binder of Demons, on 09 July 2014 - 10:53 PM, said:

Great chance for Robben, but a fantastic block by Mascerano. A perfect example to all Brazilian players about keeping switched on, and tracking the runner.

Delighted that the dutch were beaten. Can't forgive them for their behaviour in the opening game against Spain, and also against Australia. So I'm glad they're gone. And poetic that it was a penalty shoot out, after all the shite about Van Gaal's genius with the Krul sub in the last game.

I only feel sorry for Ron Vlaar and Dirk Kyut who put in a great effort.

But at least the best performance on the field came from the winners, Mascherano.

The Dutch (along with the Germans) are my go-to team to cheer for once all the Slavs are out.

I most certainly don't share your dislike of the Dutch, since the Spain-Netherlands game and the thorough, humiliating thrashing Spain got was literally one of THE highlights of the World Cup for me. If you copuld elaborate what you didn't like about the dutch that game?

That being said, I will grudgingly admit that Argentina WAS a better team. They played a style that most certainly wasn't their own, and they played it better than the Dutch, whom I'd expect to be more used to this. They certainly had the most dangerous opportunities, and their defence was superb.

[Binder of Demons]

 Mentalist, on 09 July 2014 - 11:35 PM, said:

The Dutch (along with the Germans) are my go-to team to cheer for once all the Slavs are out.

I most certainly don't share your dislike of the Dutch, since the Spain-Netherlands game and the thorough, humiliating thrashing Spain got was literally one of THE highlights of the World Cup for me. If you copuld elaborate what you didn't like about the dutch that game?

That being said, I will grudgingly admit that Argentina WAS a better team. They played a style that most certainly wasn't their own, and they played it better than the Dutch, whom I'd expect to be more used to this. They certainly had the most dangerous opportunities, and their defence was superb.

My dislike for the Dutch team is that they have chosen to use tactics to attempt to intimidate their opponents when they clearly have the ability to outmatch most through skill alone.

In the first half of that Spain game, I think the Dutch should have had about half of their players yellow carded, and possibly even a red or two for persistent and very deliberate late tackling (maybe not leg breakers, but not little tips either). Now the referee has to take some of the blame for this, but it was very clearly a tactic being employed, as they did it on almost every lay off of the ball by a Spaniard. Now you can argue that the ends justify the means, and that the behaviour managed to ruffle the feathers of the Spanish and intimidate them. But it doesn't mean i have to like it. I consider it the act of a coward. Plain and simple.

It's not that I don't like tough tackling, and good physical play. That's actually the kind of games I enjoy myself, both to play in and to watch. But a good physical challenge should at least involve making an attempt for the ball, and not leaving a player lay it off, and then kick him on the achilles,tendon, or rake down the back of his leg.

The saddest part about the Dutch tactic in the Spain game is that when they chose to just put the ball down and attack, they were able to cut them to ribbons (and one of our TV analysts, Liam Brady, was even saying it at half time in that game. Basically, if they'll just play football they'll hammer Spain). what was interesting was that they began doing the same thing against Australia, and quickly stopped when Their opponent was more than happy to kick back.

And in my opinion, age does not excuse poor behaviour like trying to injure your opponent, which is why I didn't like Martins Indi.

My dislike for this type of behaviour extends far and wide, and isn't limited to this dutch side. The Brazilians had a good streak of it too (prime example being the game against Colombia but many others too), which is why i reveled in their defeat.

This all probably stems from my naive belief that you shouldn't deliberately try and injure an opponent just because he is a better player than you, or you're just frustrated on the pitch. Because of a couple of petulant opponents, I was once left temporarily paralysed on a pitch with 3 broken vertebrae in my neck, just because I had been having a great game on the wing. The joke was my team was losing 3-2 at the time, and there was only 2 minutes left, and yet an opponent chose to blindside me as I ran down the wing. No much fun lying paralysed on a field, however short a time it was. That was in 2000, so I managed to play for another 12 years, but my tolerance for that crap diminished.

So when I see professional soccer players acting the hard man on a field doing cowardly challenges to wind up an opponent, I pray loudly for some form of karma.

Minor rant over.

[amphibian]

I broke the two forearm bones when a shitty opponent bundled me over as I was crossing a ball. Finished the game with a goal and an assist, but my arm was double size in the middle at the end.

Also had a clear imprint of a boot in my ankle and foot from a studs up tackle for a month in the worst bruise my coach had ever seen.

Kicked in the face standing up and four feet away from the ball.

I get hurt more often in mma and grappling, but at least it's fair there and I'm able to avoid things with my own skill. In a way, I'm glad I stopped playing soccer so much.

[Mentalist]

I'm usually on the giving side of physical play, being a defender with less than stellar ball control, whose main objective is to annoy forwards and clear the ball.

I completely agree about malicious fouls, though with a caveat that I place them one step below diving in the hierarchy of soccer sins. Largely because there's a fine line between a malicious play, and a mistimed challenge by an overtly physical player. I've been accused of playing too rough, and I do tend to get too reckless and single-minded on the ball sometimes, where all that matters is getting the ball out, with zero awareness of the risk to those who get in the way (or myself, for that matter). I do use that to my advantage sometimes, because when people see that I can play recklessly, they tend to get intimidated and mess up when I go charging for the ball at their feet.
(
I must stress, that despite the fact that I've had a few nasty encounters (and a nickname "the terminator") , I NEVER aim to hurt someone. And my current captain hates me, because as a defender I refuse to pull on a jersey of player that gets by me to slow him down. I am a firm believer that there shouldn't be any hand contact in football.

But yeah. For me, there's a fine line between swinging for the ball that's gone before you reach it, and purposefully hacking at a player. Which is why I tend not pay too much attention to fouls, unless there's a foul every time a certain player goes for the ball (which, sadly, is something my beloved Ukraine has done on a few occasions in the past)

At the end of the day, if the play's getting clearly overtly violent, it's the ref's job to step in and deal with it.

[Gothos]

Now that was the most boring match I recall watching, I'd wager. I fell asleep during overtime. Argentina will get cut to ribbons by Germany. Which is good.

The inability to score on both sides was... frustrating. Are these WC candidates? Really? Come on.

[Tsundoku]

Let's get rid of penalty shootouts by having infinite golden goal time: switching ends every 15 minutes, 1 minute drinks break between ends and no subs (unless there's a genuine injury - as in carried off the field, no miracle revivals and no returning to the field) until a goal is scored.

[Macros]

I think the argies are going to surprise a few when Germany don't tear them apart.
Algeria held their own quite well against the krauts

[polishgenius]

Argentina won't get cut to ribbons because they defend much, much more diligently than Brazil do. However Germany will make much better use than Holland did of the space Argentina leave in front of those defensive banks, and I don't really see much chance of them winning.

[Mentalist]

 Gothos, on 10 July 2014 - 07:08 AM, said:

Now that was the most boring match I recall watching, I'd wager. I fell asleep during overtime. Argentina will get cut to ribbons by Germany. Which is good.

The inability to score on both sides was... frustrating. Are these WC candidates? Really? Come on.

Argentina gave up the initiative, but played surprisingly solid in defense. Masciarano had Robben's number every time (and Robben got some absolutely wonderful through balls fed to him), and Sneider couldn't give a good cross to save his life.

I really didn't see the point in playing Aguero for Argentina--he didn't contribute anything of note to the game. Argentina, despite clearly giving up the initiative, STILL managed to create the most promising moments in the game--which is why, imho, their victory was a deserved one, even though I was going for the Dutch.

I'm not sure how effective this type of defence will be against Germany though--whereas the Dutch spent most of their time trying to get teh ball to their forwards and failing, the Germans will likely focus on attacking with midfield. I'm guessing the finals will be a more open game, because Argentina won't be able to just sit back, they'll need to press on their own.