[MTS]

amphibian, on 22 February 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

Macros, on 21 February 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Some people want to wait until marriage, be it religious beliefs, upbringing or other personal reasons.
It does no one any harm (excepting perhaps a case of the blue lads)

What if that little bit extra that puts you fully into a "I want to be with this person for the rest of my life" is being better in bed than a virgin is? A better connection in bed can do big things towards keeping a relationship strong and healthy. (On the flip side, it can keep people in bad relationships too long too.)

My view is that by the time I found my long term partner, I wanted to be experienced in sex, so I could do it well enough and explore more with that partner through the years.

Aside from the religious angle, a lot of people who decide to wait until marriage do so because they believe (rightly or wrongly, it doesn't matter) that sex is such a profound emotional and physical connection that it should only be shared with someone you are going to spend the rest of your life with. If both partners are of the same mindset, then it's a shared experience, as they're both exploring it together, at their own pace. If they've both managed to get to the stage where they want to marry each other without any sex involved then any further sexual experience is only going to bring them closer, even if he's a two-pump chump at first.

In any case, I don't think you can sit there in judgment about people wanting to wait. Not doing it immediately upon gaining your maturity is not a failure of living life, nor is it the be all and end all of human experiences that a lot of people make it out to be. In fact, deciding to wait until marriage and sticking to that conviction in this day and age is pretty damn impressive, and I respect the hell out of those who do.

Also, I call bullshit about there not really being any social stigma to being a virgin these days. I don't know how long it is since you've been in high school, but there is definitely a social stigma to being a virgin, and at least here having had sex is a key barometer for masculinity among teenagers, and causes real anxiety.

[Assail]

MTS, on 23 February 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

amphibian, on 22 February 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

Macros, on 21 February 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Some people want to wait until marriage, be it religious beliefs, upbringing or other personal reasons.
It does no one any harm (excepting perhaps a case of the blue lads)

What if that little bit extra that puts you fully into a "I want to be with this person for the rest of my life" is being better in bed than a virgin is? A better connection in bed can do big things towards keeping a relationship strong and healthy. (On the flip side, it can keep people in bad relationships too long too.)

My view is that by the time I found my long term partner, I wanted to be experienced in sex, so I could do it well enough and explore more with that partner through the years.

Aside from the religious angle, a lot of people who decide to wait until marriage do so because they believe (rightly or wrongly, it doesn't matter) that sex is such a profound emotional and physical connection that it should only be shared with someone you are going to spend the rest of your life with. If both partners are of the same mindset, then it's a shared experience, as they're both exploring it together, at their own pace. If they've both managed to get to the stage where they want to marry each other without any sex involved then any further sexual experience is only going to bring them closer, even if he's a two-pump chump at first.

In any case, I don't think you can sit there in judgment about people wanting to wait. Not doing it immediately upon gaining your maturity is not a failure of living life, nor is it the be all and end all of human experiences that a lot of people make it out to be. In fact, deciding to wait until marriage and sticking to that conviction in this day and age is pretty damn impressive, and I respect the hell out of those who do.

Also, I call bullshit about there not really being any social stigma to being a virgin these days. I don't know how long it is since you've been in high school, but there is definitely a social stigma to being a virgin, and at least here having had sex is a key barometer for masculinity among teenagers, and causes real anxiety.

I think that social stigma is relative only to those you really hang out with. Maybe I'm lucky, but there's no one out there that I personally know who would look down or give anyone a hard time if they're a virgin by choice. Let's face it, in reality, it's not that hard to get laid. Like you said, it's something to be respected for sure. Shows some mean self control and discipline.

[MTS]

Assail, on 23 February 2013 - 03:05 AM, said:

MTS, on 23 February 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

amphibian, on 22 February 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

Macros, on 21 February 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Some people want to wait until marriage, be it religious beliefs, upbringing or other personal reasons.
It does no one any harm (excepting perhaps a case of the blue lads)

What if that little bit extra that puts you fully into a "I want to be with this person for the rest of my life" is being better in bed than a virgin is? A better connection in bed can do big things towards keeping a relationship strong and healthy. (On the flip side, it can keep people in bad relationships too long too.)

My view is that by the time I found my long term partner, I wanted to be experienced in sex, so I could do it well enough and explore more with that partner through the years.

Aside from the religious angle, a lot of people who decide to wait until marriage do so because they believe (rightly or wrongly, it doesn't matter) that sex is such a profound emotional and physical connection that it should only be shared with someone you are going to spend the rest of your life with. If both partners are of the same mindset, then it's a shared experience, as they're both exploring it together, at their own pace. If they've both managed to get to the stage where they want to marry each other without any sex involved then any further sexual experience is only going to bring them closer, even if he's a two-pump chump at first.

In any case, I don't think you can sit there in judgment about people wanting to wait. Not doing it immediately upon gaining your maturity is not a failure of living life, nor is it the be all and end all of human experiences that a lot of people make it out to be. In fact, deciding to wait until marriage and sticking to that conviction in this day and age is pretty damn impressive, and I respect the hell out of those who do.

Also, I call bullshit about there not really being any social stigma to being a virgin these days. I don't know how long it is since you've been in high school, but there is definitely a social stigma to being a virgin, and at least here having had sex is a key barometer for masculinity among teenagers, and causes real anxiety.

I think that social stigma is relative only to those you really hang out with. Maybe I'm lucky, but there's no one out there that I personally know who would look down or give anyone a hard time if they're a virgin by choice. Let's face it, in reality, it's not that hard to get laid. Like you said, it's something to be respected for sure. Shows some mean self control and discipline.

It's not so much from your friends that the stigma comes though, it's from the peer group in general. Once you leave high school it's much less pronounced though, and once you leave uni further still, but I would argue it's still there.

[amphibian]

MTS, on 23 February 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

Aside from the religious angle, a lot of people who decide to wait until marriage do so because they believe (rightly or wrongly, it doesn't matter) that sex is such a profound emotional and physical connection that it should only be shared with someone you are going to spend the rest of your life with. If both partners are of the same mindset, then it's a shared experience, as they're both exploring it together, at their own pace. If they've both managed to get to the stage where they want to marry each other without any sex involved then any further sexual experience is only going to bring them closer, even if he's a two-pump chump at first.

This is a really nice sentiment - but I don't think it's true for all that many people. How many people do you know can truly communicate about really weighty or emotionally fraught topics like bad or "needs improving" sex involving the partners within a marriage (trying to be poly-friendly here with my terminology) without getting a little loony or irrational themselves? It's a rare skill for a reason - the amount of work, practice and patience that takes is incredible and it's something completely different from waiting to have sex.

The immediacy and impact of having had bad sex is significant. I really do think that a good percentage of dead bedrooms (partners not having sex) come about because the partners don't know how to communicate that "this thing was terrible, so please do less of that and more of this awesome thing" without setting off fights and all kinds of emotional tripwires. It becomes a fight zone and that connection of sex + fighting kills the desire by both parties.

Boinking beforehand isn't a foolproof method by any stretch of the imagination, but for most people, it will improve their communication abilities and make things easier.

But AIJ, you do what you and your partner are comfortable with. Talk to each other. Express your concerns and frustrations to each other and work it out. Or sex it out. Whatever feels good.

[Illuyankas]

Both of you fill out a questionnaire listing your major turnons and turnoffs, ranking each out of 1 to 5. The bottom conundrum, what happens on the full moon, who wears the cow suit, that sort of thing. Paperwork always adds to the romance.

[Mrs Savagely Wishy Washy]

The quality of sex is in my opinion also determined by how you feel about your body and how openly you can talk about what you like and what you don't like, as amph pointed out abovethread. I think if someone is uncomfortable with themselves or embarrassed about what they look like it will take a lot more to make sex enjoyable, compared to someone who feels thoroughly comfortable with all kinds of bodily functions.
Again I would like to emphasise that experience does not as a rule lead to better communication in the bedroom. Some people are naturally more open about what they feel and like than others, and I think being comfortable with a partner whom you trust and want to be with will make up what you lack in experience.

[HoosierDaddy]

So, I don't judge a damn person about any of their quirks. Do what you gotta, do what makes you comfy, and do what makes you happy.

Fuck what everyone else thinks. They don't matter.

I agree with the most recent posters talking about communication. Sex is awkward. Initial foreplay is oftentimes very, very awkward. You want to have good intimate relations? Talk to each other. And, frankly, if you aren't comfortable talking about it enough to at least enjoy it, you probably shouldn't be fucking.

Edit: Thanks Worrywort for being a consistently colossal c**t to pretty much everyone.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 23 February 2013 - 09:20 AM

[worry]

You go inside them? Yikes!

[Puck]

amphibian, on 21 February 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

[...] and there is no real social stigma to being a virgin/not being a virgin in places like Australia/North America/Europe and a huge chunk of the less tolerant places actually are quite tolerant about that too.

Dear amphibian, please read your own recent posts in this thread and then repeat your own statement about social stigma. Just try it.

This post has been edited by Puck: 23 February 2013 - 01:03 PM

[tiam]

Ive only slept with a handful of people (i wouldnt consider myself good looking and have never really shagged about so to speak), but I think sex is about how comfortable you are with the other person. If your relaxed and open to try new things with the person your with your much more likely to both hit upon something you like and thus concentrate on that and have alot more fun as a result.

Also this is the first time ive seen this thread.

[Sindriss]

Regarding the social stigma, I could imagine that it is perhaps less so in some places in the US, being that they are in general quite religious and that it is not an uncommon practice (although most people who try fail, from what I understand).
But I think that in most of Europe and Australia it is a huge stigma because it is pretty much non-existent that people try to hold out for marriage. Although that is probably more true for Europe than Australia, it really seemed like they had more religious people. Perhaps you can comment on that MTS?

[worry]

Actually I wouldn't be so sure about that: in the regions where religion has a larger influence on these decisions (I assume you mean the Bible Belt), kids just do a workaround to vaginal sex by doing everything else (including anal sex) and STDs are of way higher prevelance. Teen pregnancy is also higher there too, so people are doing it the old fashioned way as well: http://msmagazine.co...pregnant-teens/ So in this region (and of course similar locales and households throughout the US) there exist two competing peer stigmas between virginity/purity and adulthood/experience, a lack of sufficient sex education, and it turns out to be a disaster. Meanwhile, where sex ed and birth control are available, they work: http://www.nydailyne...ticle-1.1253933

What I'm getting at, I think, is that peer pressure and social stigmas do more to confuse people than help, even when they're supposedly anti-sex. Biological pressure is stronger than any of it anyway. The best way to challenge these things is factual information and encouraging smart decisions (but not just through lip service). It only increases personal agency.

[MTS]

amphibian, on 23 February 2013 - 05:03 AM, said:

MTS, on 23 February 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

Aside from the religious angle, a lot of people who decide to wait until marriage do so because they believe (rightly or wrongly, it doesn't matter) that sex is such a profound emotional and physical connection that it should only be shared with someone you are going to spend the rest of your life with. If both partners are of the same mindset, then it's a shared experience, as they're both exploring it together, at their own pace. If they've both managed to get to the stage where they want to marry each other without any sex involved then any further sexual experience is only going to bring them closer, even if he's a two-pump chump at first.

This is a really nice sentiment - but I don't think it's true for all that many people. How many people do you know can truly communicate about really weighty or emotionally fraught topics like bad or "needs improving" sex involving the partners within a marriage (trying to be poly-friendly here with my terminology) without getting a little loony or irrational themselves? It's a rare skill for a reason - the amount of work, practice and patience that takes is incredible and it's something completely different from waiting to have sex.

The immediacy and impact of having had bad sex is significant. I really do think that a good percentage of dead bedrooms (partners not having sex) come about because the partners don't know how to communicate that "this thing was terrible, so please do less of that and more of this awesome thing" without setting off fights and all kinds of emotional tripwires. It becomes a fight zone and that connection of sex + fighting kills the desire by both parties.

Boinking beforehand isn't a foolproof method by any stretch of the imagination, but for most people, it will improve their communication abilities and make things easier.

Being a virgin by marriage will not mean one will be unable to communicate with their partner about what feels good during sex. The only thing that is different between a newlywed couple in their early-mid twenties losing their virginities and a couple of 16 year olds having sex for the first time is their respective ages. Sex is always an awkward learning curve at first, and there are certainly some emotional tripwires surrounding suggestions for improvement, but I'm not sure how waiting for sex means you will be any less equipped to handle such issues when they arise. Experience is not the deciding factor in a healthy sex life, it's the ability of the two partners to communicate and be open with one another. I would in fact argue that being older and more mature would make you more equipped to handle that emotional minefield, as presumably you are more secure in yourself and able to be more open with your partner.

Sindriss, on 23 February 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

Regarding the social stigma, I could imagine that it is perhaps less so in some places in the US, being that they are in general quite religious and that it is not an uncommon practice (although most people who try fail, from what I understand).
But I think that in most of Europe and Australia it is a huge stigma because it is pretty much non-existent that people try to hold out for marriage. Although that is probably more true for Europe than Australia, it really seemed like they had more religious people. Perhaps you can comment on that MTS?

Well, I'm not really an expert on Australian teen sex attitudes, but at least from my own anecdotal evidence it wasn't really that common. I wouldn't think there would be a huge disparity between here and elsewhere though.

[amphibian]

MTS, on 24 February 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Being a virgin by marriage will not mean one will be unable to communicate with their partner about what feels good during sex. The only thing that is different between a newlywed couple in their early-mid twenties losing their virginities and a couple of 16 year olds having sex for the first time is their respective ages.

Sex is always an awkward learning curve at first, and there are certainly some emotional tripwires surrounding suggestions for improvement, but I'm not sure how waiting for sex means you will be any less equipped to handle such issues when they arise. Experience is not the deciding factor in a healthy sex life, it's the ability of the two partners to communicate and be open with one another. I would in fact argue that being older and more mature would make you more equipped to handle that emotional minefield, as presumably you are more secure in yourself and able to be more open with your partner.

Being older doesn't give as much experience as "been there, done that and botched it a few times before I got the hang of it" for anything in life. Humans, by and large, are a trial and error sort.

I speak in generalities here because we've moved there and because when you look at the early married life of a couple, you're looking at people typically undergoing massive change. They live together, maybe buy a house soon, perhaps a car, share money, have to work out when to have kids (or not), how to deal with family and friends, the right balance of work and each other, how to better forge an identity as a couple, how to not totally drop all the old pursuits and hobbies, the loss of free time and much more. Marriage is a complicated ideal/thing/pursuit/arrangement.

Add onto that a few dozen personal things and you get a really tough time for young people - even ones in their mid twenties - to handle. Putting in the not easy adjustment process of inexperienced or even bad initial sexual experiences (especially if kids enter the picture) can be one small problem among many or it could be a slowly growing straw upon the camel's back.

Of course, there are going to be people who navigate this perfectly, but the rate of increasing divorces all over the world shows that quite frequently the marriage ship founders on the rocks of discontent. It probably is true that communication is severely lacking between a large chunk of newly married partners on many issues and challenges and this general problem dooms many marriages. What makes you think that these communication problems wouldn't extend to sex and preferences vs. reality?

Why not get this sex experience thing mostly out of the way beforehand? We mostly already have "trial run" relationships before we actually pick someone to marry. For the most part, we get better and better at relationships as we learn from our mistakes and the next ones are usually better and easier given our increased experience.

Again, it isn't a cure-all or going to be a problem-free thing. But it could help, in my view, when things get rocky.

Also, Briar King doing the talking about this stuff over text to his dates to successful resolutions shows me that there are higher levels to text game that I have not achieved. Kudos to you.

[amphibian]

worrywort, on 23 February 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

Actually I wouldn't be so sure about that: in the regions where religion has a larger influence on these decisions (I assume you mean the Bible Belt), kids just do a workaround to vaginal sex by doing everything else (including anal sex) and STDs are of way higher prevelance. Teen pregnancy is also higher there too, so people are doing it the old fashioned way as well: http://msmagazine.co...pregnant-teens/ So in this region (and of course similar locales and households throughout the US) there exist two competing peer stigmas between virginity/purity and adulthood/experience, a lack of sufficient sex education, and it turns out to be a disaster. Meanwhile, where sex ed and birth control are available, they work: http://www.nydailyne...ticle-1.1253933

What I'm getting at, I think, is that peer pressure and social stigmas do more to confuse people than help, even when they're supposedly anti-sex. Biological pressure is stronger than any of it anyway. The best way to challenge these things is factual information and encouraging smart decisions (but not just through lip service). It only increases personal agency.

When worrywort gets serious, good things usually result. This is a great post.

[D'rek]

amphibian, on 25 February 2013 - 02:37 AM, said:

Being older doesn't give as much experience as "been there, done that and botched it a few times before I got the hang of it" for anything in life. Humans, by and large, are a trial and error sort.

The average age that people get married at is somewhere around 28 or so, no? In the long run, starting to "get experience" at 18 versus at 28 is not that much of a difference. It doesn't take 10 years to get comfortable with the basic naughty arts, so even if you save yourself for marriage, get married at 28, and then divorce after a few years at 32 or so you have 20+ years of your life to find someone else with your newfound experience before there's any major situation that is no longer possible (ie menopause preventing you and wife #2 from having kids).

amphibian, on 25 February 2013 - 02:37 AM, said:

I speak in generalities here because we've moved there and because when you look at the early married life of a couple, you're looking at people typically undergoing massive change. They live together, maybe buy a house soon, perhaps a car, share money, have to work out when to have kids (or not), how to deal with family and friends, the right balance of work and each other, how to better forge an identity as a couple, how to not totally drop all the old pursuits and hobbies, the loss of free time and much more. Marriage is a complicated ideal/thing/pursuit/arrangement.

Add onto that a few dozen personal things and you get a really tough time for young people - even ones in their mid twenties - to handle. Putting in the not easy adjustment process of inexperienced or even bad initial sexual experiences (especially if kids enter the picture) can be one small problem among many or it could be a slowly growing straw upon the camel's back.

All of that *could* be true in some circumstances, but for any given couple it could just as likely be the case that their commitment to each other (marriage being a big deal, after all) means that they are more patient learners with each other, are more interested in learning what makes their partner feel good, etc, whereas as teens or young adults in less committed relationships they might have been more selfishly focused only on themselves.

Furthermore, as others have said up thread, sex can be very enjoyable even when you are terrible at it. In the high-stress situation you describe above, the new pleasure of sex that has been saved until now could be a fantastic stress-reliver and intimate experience that keeps the two partners happy and glued together in a way that it could not have if they were already extremely familiar with it and it was somewhat routine to them.

amphibian, on 25 February 2013 - 02:37 AM, said:

Of course, there are going to be people who navigate this perfectly, but the rate of increasing divorces all over the world shows that quite frequently the marriage ship founders on the rocks of discontent. It probably is true that communication is severely lacking between a large chunk of newly married partners on many issues and challenges and this general problem dooms many marriages. What makes you think that these communication problems wouldn't extend to sex and preferences vs. reality?

Not sure what you're arguing here - people used to not save themselves for marriage as much before and now that they are doing so the divorce rate is going up? I thought that first trend was the opposite of that?

amphibian, on 25 February 2013 - 02:37 AM, said:

Also, Briar King doing the talking about this stuff over text to his dates to successful resolutions shows me that there are higher levels to text game that I have not achieved. Kudos to you.

I don't get this sexting fad/thing... digital letters just aren't sexy no matter how hard you try to read them in your head in someone's voice

[MTS]

amphibian, on 25 February 2013 - 02:37 AM, said:

MTS, on 24 February 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

Being a virgin by marriage will not mean one will be unable to communicate with their partner about what feels good during sex. The only thing that is different between a newlywed couple in their early-mid twenties losing their virginities and a couple of 16 year olds having sex for the first time is their respective ages.

Sex is always an awkward learning curve at first, and there are certainly some emotional tripwires surrounding suggestions for improvement, but I'm not sure how waiting for sex means you will be any less equipped to handle such issues when they arise. Experience is not the deciding factor in a healthy sex life, it's the ability of the two partners to communicate and be open with one another. I would in fact argue that being older and more mature would make you more equipped to handle that emotional minefield, as presumably you are more secure in yourself and able to be more open with your partner.

Being older doesn't give as much experience as "been there, done that and botched it a few times before I got the hang of it" for anything in life. Humans, by and large, are a trial and error sort.

I speak in generalities here because we've moved there and because when you look at the early married life of a couple, you're looking at people typically undergoing massive change. They live together, maybe buy a house soon, perhaps a car, share money, have to work out when to have kids (or not), how to deal with family and friends, the right balance of work and each other, how to better forge an identity as a couple, how to not totally drop all the old pursuits and hobbies, the loss of free time and much more. Marriage is a complicated ideal/thing/pursuit/arrangement.

Add onto that a few dozen personal things and you get a really tough time for young people - even ones in their mid twenties - to handle. Putting in the not easy adjustment process of inexperienced or even bad initial sexual experiences (especially if kids enter the picture) can be one small problem among many or it could be a slowly growing straw upon the camel's back.

Of course, there are going to be people who navigate this perfectly, but the rate of increasing divorces all over the world shows that quite frequently the marriage ship founders on the rocks of discontent. It probably is true that communication is severely lacking between a large chunk of newly married partners on many issues and challenges and this general problem dooms many marriages. What makes you think that these communication problems wouldn't extend to sex and preferences vs. reality?

Why not get this sex experience thing mostly out of the way beforehand? We mostly already have "trial run" relationships before we actually pick someone to marry. For the most part, we get better and better at relationships as we learn from our mistakes and the next ones are usually better and easier given our increased experience.

Again, it isn't a cure-all or going to be a problem-free thing. But it could help, in my view, when things get rocky.

Well presumably the newlywed couple would be having a ton of sex on the honeymoon, which would be their own 'trial run' for what each other likes in the bedroom, when it's just each other and without all the stresses of newly married life that come with it. The issue of massive change in the early years of marriage complicating things is a good point, but some of the things you describe are in general already worked out before marriage anyway. The vast majority of couples now live together before they get married, so they deal with the issue of money, work, family etc., and so that itself is a 'trial run' for how a couple can handle being with one another for the rest of their life. I would also seriously hope that a couple has talked about when to have kids before they get married as well. Imagine the scenario where the couple have a fantastic wedding and then three days later the wife founds out her new husband never wants to have kids. Awkward...

Anyway, I am not saying that being older means that all your communication problems in the bedroom will be gone, I'm just saying that whether you are a virgin or not won't have the greatest effect on how well you would handle such issues - as Miss Savage said, it's more the openness of the individual that will determine how well one communicates in the bedroom. I think that getting the experience thing 'out of the way' as you describe is the wrong way to look at it. As already noted, sex is awesome even when you're terrible, and the learning curve itself is just as enjoyable as when you've 'gotten the hang of it.' Why not share that wonderful learning experience with the love of your life?

[worry]

People should stop pair-bonding and start octet-bonding.

[MTS]

By the way, does anyone else get the Salt N Pepa song stuck in their head every time they come into this thread?

[MTS]

worrywort, on 25 February 2013 - 04:17 AM, said:

People should stop pair-bonding and start octet-bonding.

Personally I'd like to have some experience in that area before committing to it.