[Primateus]

So, like the description says, I'm having a crisis of thought.

I have this friend, a lady-friend, a good friend. A couple of months ago she and I got drunk out of our minds and, well, you know the story. You and your friend gets drunk out of your minds and wake up next to each other next morningn butt-naked.

Yeah, so we had sex, I remember that much, but then again, in order for me not to remember what I do in my drunken stupors I'll have to ingest borderline dangerous amounts of alcohol.

Here's the kicker, While I do remember that we had sex, she does not. She know we did, because she asked and I told her and besides, she's not stupid, so it wasn't that difficult for her to figure it out giving the way we both woke up.

So, I've been avoiding her for the last couple of months because, as I mentioned, I've been having a crisis of thought about this.

Some further explaining is neccessary, I think, as to why I'm having that crisis.

In the last decade or so as I've grown and matured as a person and a man I've slowly changed my point of view in regards to having sex with drunk women. Yeah, sure, the occasional one night stand has always been sort of fun. But I've slowly come to the realization that having sex with a person who's too drunk to say no might not in fact be consensual. Now, I'm of the opinion that it ain't neccessarily rape either, because it may well be consensual. It's tricky, so I try to avoid having sex with women who's "shit-faced" (try to avoid meaning I DON'T have sex with them)

Now, my friend, I'm pretty sure that it was, at least to some degree, consensual because she kept saying "yes" the whole thing still leads me back to that it might not have been. The reason why it does this is two-fold (maybe two and a half-fold)

As I mentioned, she doesn't remember it, and I know we wouldn't have had sex had we been sober.

Now, I'm pretty certain (almost 100% certain) that I didn't rape her, because that would be bad. But I not sure whether or not I took advantage of my friend when she was in a vulnerable position, because I know from experience that I could have stopped myself. We're still friends and she has seemingly carried on with business as usual, but I'm sitting here feeling quite conflicted and rather bad...

So what the fuck is up with that?

Ps: Sorry for the rambling, but as I said, I'm having a crisis of thought!

[Garak]

Well here's something you don't see everyday.

About it being consensual. Well, I'm thinking it was - or at least as consensual as two drunks ca get. Point being you didn't force her to do it, she was ok with it - thus it was consensual. A lawyer might be able to argue this better or otherwise but I'm not one so there.

Now if it was consensual then it wasn't rape. So that's out the window. Did you take advantage of her .... I'd say yes (how drunk was she and how does she act when drunk?) - but then again she was willing to do it. If she's fine with the whole thing then I say carry on as normal, think of a way to apologize to her if you consider you took advantage of her. Talk to her about it, maybe.

[Aptorian]

Oh stop it! Don't fucking beat yourself up because you've had the "politically correct, woman's rights, sex is bad and dangerous and serious business and kids come out of there and what about the mortgage and a woman's choice..." bull-shit stuffed down you and everyone else's throat for the past decade or more.

I'm sorry but this topic is one that really pisses me off. Not because date rape isn't a serious thing but because of the fear mongering that comes along with the awareness that surrounds it. It's like pedophelia. Suddenly I can't say hi to a child on a lawn with out getting a suspicious look and in this case, suddenly you can't get drunk and have stupid sex with out having to analyze every angle of the encounter and the motivations and emotions involved. You have to draw a line somewhere and I draw mine at the right to hit on drunk girls and have stupid sex in bushes.

You had sex. That's all. It was just fucking sex. Sex is put on this weird pedestal where it becomes at the same time very taboo to even talk about or share with others and something that is super serious and has to define you as a person. It's just sex. So you got drunk and you banged. What ever. Every one does it. Think of all the couples who get sloshed during the weekend and come home and fuck all over the apartment and then get a black out. Did they rape each other because memory is lacking? No they just had drunk sex.

This isn't about what others think. It's about what you think. Did you lure her into that bed against her will? Did she say no? Did she resist? If you can say no to these three things then you just had sex. It probably seemed like an awesome idea at the time and felt pretty awesome. Move along.

Have you talked with her since about it? At all? Are you sure that she really doesn't remember anything? Maybe it's just super awkward and you haven't mentioned it since. Maybe she'd like to do it again some time if you'd just send her a text?

[Tsundoku]

So ... you're worried over what you THINK you MIGHT have (1%) done? Do you know yourself? I get blackouts if I have waaaaay too much to drink, but I know for sure 100% that there is no fucking way on this earth (or any other parallel earth, for that matter) that I would have sex with a woman without her consent.

Also, she may have remembered, but is giving you the impression that she didn't because it gives you a way to save face on the whole drunken-coitus-with-a-supposedly-platonic-friend thing.

Plus, if the above has any plausibility, what makes you think that it was YOU taking advantage of HER? Maybe it was the other way round? Women like it as much as we do, or so I read once in this magazine in a doctors waiting room.

This post has been edited by Sombra: 13 November 2012 - 12:57 PM

[HiddenOne]

You are troubled but she is not? You are innocent my friend, of anything other than being too sensitive. Now can you recover the situation and re-affirm the friendship? You might even find a relationship that has improved since the sexual tension may be gone and you can settle into the friend zone once again.

[Tapper]

Have you spoken to her?
I've been in a more or less the same situation where I boinked a temp worker while she and I were shit-faced. It was definately consensual, but still - we'd never had done it were we sober.

In my experience the only thing that really helps is a talk about it.

Avoiding her? No good. Examine her position: what if she acts normal, but feels horrible? Apart from best friends, you're the only person she can talk to without this tale spreading - likewise, so is she for you. Apart from us, your interweb friends. We're a category of our own.

And if she's OK (and is there a reason to assume she's not?), you're not - witness the rambling to people you don't know. Now add in that stuff like this puts tension on how you get along, and not good or exciting tension either. See your own reaction right now and ask yourself how long it will take before she'll think 'he's got a problem!'. So man up, and talk about it.

EDIT: basically what Apt says. With a bit more thought to her feeling crappy. Because I'm such a sensitive soul.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 13 November 2012 - 01:20 PM

[Ulrik]

Huh...man seriously? I just should add "dtto" under Apt post. So you both were drunken had sex and you are philosophing about "almost" rape? C´mon ...you are both mature, you were both drunken and Im pretty sure none of you suffered. Hey, give her right to have her own right of choice to fuck you while drunk. Its just sex, unless you made small Primateus. Do it again, dont do it again...just dont make a fuss from it

Because than you can think about "oh, she was vulnerable because...of alcohol, her period, that strong cafe latte, romantic movie, her brain is swimming in serotonin...am I evil?"

[Use Of Weapons]

I'm afraid I disagree with those above who are saying 'totes consensual' above. The fact that there is a question in your mind is your clue that you need an answer -- and that answer has to come from her, not from the internet. But rather than writing a FEELINGSMAIL, I'd suggest inviting her to a chat somewhere public but where you can be relatively private, or get her to suggest somewhere that she feels comfortable. Tell her how you're feeling, and let her talk. Don't second-guess her, or try to impute motives before she's had a chance to tell you her side of the story. Listen. Then, whatever the outcome, tell her that you need some time to process what she said, whatever it was, and that if she wants you to get in touch, you'll do so after <time limit>.

After that, there are a few different ways it could go. But it starts off with finding out what she thinks happened. Use the time to figure out what you're going to change about yourself so that you turn turn into the guy you've said you don't want to be.

[POOPOO MCBUMFACE]

Use Of Weapons, on 13 November 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

I'm afraid I disagree with those above who are saying 'totes consensual' above. The fact that there is a question in your mind is your clue that you need an answer -- and that answer has to come from her, not from the internet. But rather than writing a FEELINGSMAIL, I'd suggest inviting her to a chat somewhere public but where you can be relatively private, or get her to suggest somewhere that she feels comfortable. Tell her how you're feeling, and let her talk. Don't second-guess her, or try to impute motives before she's had a chance to tell you her side of the story. Listen. Then, whatever the outcome, tell her that you need some time to process what she said, whatever it was, and that if she wants you to get in touch, you'll do so after <time limit>.

After that, there are a few different ways it could go. But it starts off with finding out what she thinks happened. Use the time to figure out what you're going to change about yourself so that you turn turn into the guy you've said you don't want to be.

This is a good post.

It sounds very much like it was consensual; as consensual as drunk gets, really. It's obviously a pretty grey area, and the fact that you wouldn't have done it sober shows that. But it happens. I'm not saying that drinking means risking having sex you don't want and by God woman if you don't want to take that risk just stay in the kitchen, because that's abhorrent, but you do run the risk of waking up wondering why the hell you did all manner of things.

Honestly, I'd say the best thing to do is take it as a learning experience. Do have the talk that UoW suggests, she's probably feeling as awkward - or less - as you. Talk! Talk and take it as a learning experience; drunk sex is something you really have to ask whether it's worth it or not, and yes, ask if it's something that will hurt her later. Hard to do in the heat of the moment, yeah. And yes, despite "women's rights bullshit", it's good that we are starting to ask that. It maybe makes life a little more of a hassle, but the alternative is a culture in which people get raped and nobody considers it to have been what it was. It doesn't mean women can't consent to sex when drunk, but it means drunk women are no longer - as it were - a free ride. Frankly, it'd be hellish creepy if you'd been sober and more than a little bit rapey. But you were on a pretty even ground. Some people forget drunk acts easier than others; my girlfriend's memory starts to go before she's even really drunk. It doesn't mean it's rape every time we have sex after a few drinks. You should talk about it, but until further notice, I'd look at it as just two people attracted to each other losing their inhibitions for a night. Happens. That you're even bothered by this at all says a lot; you're a good guy who got carried away with himself. She did the same thing.

[cerveza_fiesta]

Couldn't agree more with mr. Poopoo here.

Do the right thing now, and chat about it. The biggest problem is lack of communication afterward. If neither of you has any subsequent communication your minds will fabricate all kinds of crazy things. It's got you thinking you raped someone for godsakes!

What's more, your avoidance of her might cause her to think that maybe you're not just feeling awkward...

- or maybe you just fucked her and chucked her
- or maybe your years-long friendship was just a giant lead up to you getting in her pants
- or maybe nice guys aren't worth the effort after all
- or maybe those secret feelings of attraction for primateus were ill-founded
- or maybe he's a giant asshole after all.
- now I hate primateus

(THIS IS HOW FEMALE MINDS WORK BY THE WAY in my experience).

If you need a way to break the ice about it, just suggest grabbing a coffee and going someplace semiprivate (like a walk outside...public but where you won't be overheard) and just say:

"I know I've been avoiding you for the last while, but it isn't what you might think. I'm just having a hard time because I don't think it was the best decision to have a drunken hook-up with somebody I consider a real friend. I mean, I liked our previous relationship and if you want us to return to that then let's just put that night behind us so I can stop feeling guilty and you can stop feeling abused. If you think there might be something more, then what do you say to dinner on Tuesday?"


Or, preferably, something far less manufactured. It's important to get across the major points. Communicate your exact feelings the best you can, let her know there was some genuine attraction, explain (and this bit is important) that you weren't just trying to get in her pants all this time, and leave her in control of the outcome (including the option to retreat).

Also plan an exit strategy so there isn't some super awkward silent "looking at the ground" contest after you blurt it all out. There is no reason why a drunken hook-up should ruin a friendship unless you both act like massive twats afterward. It isn't too late to salvage IMO but you should act asap.

This post has been edited by cerveza_fiesta: 13 November 2012 - 05:03 PM

[End of Disc One]

Quote

Here's the kicker, While I do remember that we had sex, she does not. She know we did, because she asked and I told her and besides, she's not stupid, so it wasn't that difficult for her to figure it out giving the way we both woke up.

I've encountered this a few times. I never believe it. The girl doesn't want you to think she's a slut, and having blackout drunk sex is somehow less slutty than having a sober one-nighter.

I don't know about you guys but I've had my share of blackouts, and I can't imagine completely not remembering sex.

[Macros]

I dunno my memory is atrocious when drinking. I don't think Id forget a bit of buckin but its not outside the realms of possibility.

regarding the fear of rape I agree drunk girl is grey area territory. Were you stone cold sober I wold queston your position very closely. But as it reads to me it looks like office party syndrome, alcohol lowered inhibitions and you both acted on attractions already there.

what everyone else said, speak to the girl, awkward or not, you need to for your own piece of mind at the very least.

I'll offer no advice on how to approach her, you know the girl and so I assume you'll know what environment would feel casual and safe enough for the conversation, but whatever you do, fucking do it soon, the longer it runs, the weirder the conversation will be. Just bite the bullet and hope yo can at least get your friendship back on course, I think you'll be surprised how easy it is to move past this if you talk it out.

[Abyss]

End of Disc One, on 13 November 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

Quote

Here's the kicker, While I do remember that we had sex, she does not. She know we did, because she asked and I told her and besides, she's not stupid, so it wasn't that difficult for her to figure it out giving the way we both woke up.

I've encountered this a few times. I never believe it. The girl doesn't want you to think she's a slut, and having blackout drunk sex is somehow less slutty than having a sober one-nighter.

I don't know about you guys but I've had my share of blackouts, and I can't imagine completely not remembering sex.

More likely it was an 'out', meaning if he said no then 'pfft' they magically didn't sheboing.
Good advice upthread. Have the conversation.

[masan's saddle]

Prim, has it occurred to you that the reason she doesn't remember is that you weren't that memorable ?

In all seriousness though, it sounds like she is a good friend and the bonk has confused things. Don't beat yourself up about it, talking about it will help.

Just don't talk about it in the pub.

[Vengeance]

masan, on 13 November 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

Prim, has it occurred to you that the reason she doesn't remember is that you weren't that memorable ?

In all seriousness though, it sounds like she is a good friend and the bonk has confused things. Don't beat yourself up about it, talking about it will help.

Just don't talk about it in the pub.

Ask her back to your place and have soft music playing with candle light. Tell her that you want to discuss your relationship..

This post has been edited by Vengeance: 13 November 2012 - 10:10 PM

[Mrs Savagely Wishy Washy]

cerveza_fiesta, on 13 November 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

Couldn't agree more with mr. Poopoo here.

Do the right thing now, and chat about it. The biggest problem is lack of communication afterward. If neither of you has any subsequent communication your minds will fabricate all kinds of crazy things. It's got you thinking you raped someone for godsakes!

What's more, your avoidance of her might cause her to think that maybe you're not just feeling awkward...

- or maybe you just fucked her and chucked her
- or maybe your years-long friendship was just a giant lead up to you getting in her pants
- or maybe nice guys aren't worth the effort after all
- or maybe those secret feelings of attraction for primateus were ill-founded
- or maybe he's a giant asshole after all.
- now I hate primateus

(THIS IS HOW FEMALE MINDS WORK BY THE WAY in my experience).

If you need a way to break the ice about it, just suggest grabbing a coffee and going someplace semiprivate (like a walk outside...public but where you won't be overheard) and just say:

"I know I've been avoiding you for the last while, but it isn't what you might think. I'm just having a hard time because I don't think it was the best decision to have a drunken hook-up with somebody I consider a real friend. I mean, I liked our previous relationship and if you want us to return to that then let's just put that night behind us so I can stop feeling guilty and you can stop feeling abused. If you think there might be something more, then what do you say to dinner on Tuesday?"


Or, preferably, something far less manufactured. It's important to get across the major points. Communicate your exact feelings the best you can, let her know there was some genuine attraction, explain (and this bit is important) that you weren't just trying to get in her pants all this time, and leave her in control of the outcome (including the option to retreat).

Also plan an exit strategy so there isn't some super awkward silent "looking at the ground" contest after you blurt it all out. There is no reason why a drunken hook-up should ruin a friendship unless you both act like massive twats afterward. It isn't too late to salvage IMO but you should act asap.

I think that's sound advice. The only thing I would advice caution is the "abuse" - part. Let's say she is fine with the sex but not with you avoiding her afterwards, in that case don't put the notion of abuse or non consensual in her head, because that may just get her thinking about was it or wasn't it and that can cause more trouble rather than clear the water. I don't know her and you and what you both were/are like together, so if you know a way to find out how she feels about the whole situation without mentioning abuse etc... much better. However, if you feel that there is more to it from her side as you are having the conversation, you'd better be prepared and have an idea what you're going to say to her and how to deal with that in a friendship.

I suppose what I am trying to say is something like let sleeping dogs lie unless she thinks it's an issue.

This post has been edited by Miss Savage: 13 November 2012 - 10:33 PM

[Acorn]

See... This is why I don't drink...

I don't want to be taken advantage of by my nice-to-amazing looking woman-friends when I get plastered and then have to pretend (or even more depressing, be HONEST) that I couldn't remember... It's a bold sacrifice I make to maintain the status quo..

Which in this case would be that I have sex with them and make certain they remember by tattooing my name somewhere interesting mid-act... Which is a damned hard thing to do, unless you don't mind REALLY bad lettering in your tattoos, then it's pretty easy.



Oh, a side note, everything I said above is true, except for the tattooing, I only do that while mostly motionless... I say this because I, and my women companions and friends are mature and adult enough to realize that sex is fun, and sex with each other is not only fun and enjoyable, it is also rather easy going and makes sense. Maturity comes in all sorts of forms - if your lady friend is embarrassed by the "act" then perhaps she was trying to shed as much responsibility as possible by passing the buck. But that is petty and immature - so I hope not, because if that's the case then she's a manipulative wench and you should probably stop beating yourself up over it, as she's obviously meaning you to.

However, there is the simple fact that she honestly may not remember in detail, or even in portions, what went on. That being said, it is not as if you hypnotized her into thinking you're her "celebrity crush, willing and able" so don't be so crazy about it. People get drunk for many reasons, one of those reasons is so they can let go of many of their inhibitions. And I seriously doubt that she's not discovered the way she handles (or doesn't) her drinking until you and she did the deed of need.

So have that conversation with her, but don't be insult her with making yourself into a martyr. Go into this as a mature man you want to be, and expect her to be a mature woman. Be kind, but don't be patronizing. Be honest and open but don't drop your turmoil on her.

Hope you get this worked out to stop beating yourself up, and to help make sure you and she can get on with things (in what ever form romantic/friendly).

Good luck!

[Sinisdar Toste]

it's ok, he's run to her house and knocked on the door loudly while yelling her name. they're gonna work this out fine.

[Abyss]

Oh ffs, didn't anyone tell him he's supposed to stand outside her window in the pouring rain with a ghetto blaster playing Peter Gabriel's 'In your eyes' held over his head???

[Tsundoku]

Abyss, on 14 November 2012 - 01:38 AM, said:

Oh ffs, didn't anyone tell him he's supposed to stand outside her window in the pouring rain with a ghetto blaster playing Peter Gabriel's 'In your eyes' held over his head???

Beat me to it.

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This post has been edited by Sombra: 14 November 2012 - 02:48 AM