[Crow Clan Baby]

I'm more inclined to think that Korya Delath = Korlat. "Delath"/"Delat" is nice piece of indirection for sure, but having her as Korlat fits better with Erikson's name concatenation (Scara Bandaris as another example) and she is a member of house Drukorlas too.

[amphibian]

Crow Clan Baby, on 03 September 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

I'm more inclined to think that Korya Delath = Korlat. "Delath"/"Delat" is nice piece of indirection for sure, but having her as Korlat fits better with Erikson's name concatenation (Scara Bandaris as another example) and she is a member of house Drukorlas too.

We already have Sandalath as a hostage in House Dracons and Orfantal bopping around Kharkanas. It could be possible, but I think it unlikely.

[Werthead]

Drusas Achamian, on 27 August 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

* Who could be the 'High King', mentioned by Old Man and later by Errastas and Sechul Lath. Draconus was shocked when he heart the news;
could it be Kallor? We presume that Kallor is human; were humans around before the foundation of the Warrens and the Elder Gods and the Tiste civil war?

If we go by the dates in Memories of Ice and other books, then apparently not. Forge of Darkness must take place before the oldest dates given in the series - about 300,000 years before Burn's Sleep, potentially long before (as that was the end of the 33rd Jaghut/Imass War, and that conflict appears to have been long after FoD). Kallor's Empire comes into existence (and is then destroyed) about 120,000 years before Burn's Sleep, with the Fall of the Crippled God taking place at the end of that empire.

It's possible that Kallor is not human and his human form is some sort of avatar or rebirth of an older High King (and it makes sense for Erikson to set up Kallor in the Kharkanas trilogy ahead of Kallor's presumed reappearance in the Toblakai trilogy later on) from the Tiste days. However, it is also possible that there is some kind of time travel at work. Erikson has hinted in prior books that time travel via Warrens (or maybe Chaos) is possible and something of that could be at work here (not to mention providing a pleasing way of maneuvering clear of any and all possible continuity issues).

Quote

* Did the Crippled God crashed on earth before the events of Forge of Darkness? Why?
- Because of MoI, Burn sleeps to halt the infection of the Chained One, so we can live. In FoD, Burn sleeps already, as is noticed by Sukul Ankhadu.
- Twice a High King is mentioned: could it be Kallor?
- Draconus reacted like he was affraid when the High King was mentioned; could it be because Kallor cursed Draconus?

The Crippled God did not crash on Wu until 120,000 years before Burn's Sleep, after humans had been around. However, if the planet/realm in FoD is not Wu (or not yet Wu - I haven't finished the book yet so don't know if this is confirmed or not), it may be there is some connection between this planet and the CG, and between Burn and the CG's realm, that predates his arrival on Wu.

Otherwise Burn could simply periodically sleep for different reasons or the book's Unreliable Narrator has gotten confused

Quote

But there are of course important sidenotes: were humans already around during this time?

Possible, but unlikely, unless the humans of Wu are notable different from us (modern humans have existed on Earth for about 200,000 years, or at least 100,000 years less time than on Wu if humans are around during FoD). Given this is one of Erikson's specialities, I assume he wouldn't change that around too much without exploring some of the consequences. Of course, if time travel of some kind is involved, anything is possible.

Quote

I'm more inclined to think that Korya Delath = Korlat.

This was my thought as well. You have to jump through some hoops to make Korya Quick Ben, whilst Korya Delath just seems a lot easier, and fitting in with the other naming conventions as well.

This post has been edited by Werthead: 05 September 2012 - 09:57 PM

[Raraku]

To be honest I'm wondering how Scara Bandaris becomes the back stabbing Bloodeye even though he's such a good friend of Silchas Ruin that he foresakes his command and leaves with just the people he trusts

[Kanese S's]

Power and time both change people.

[drinksinbars]

Crow Clan Baby, on 03 September 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

I'm more inclined to think that Korya Delath = Korlat. "Delath"/"Delat" is nice piece of indirection for sure, but having her as Korlat fits better with Erikson's name concatenation (Scara Bandaris as another example) and she is a member of house Drukorlas too.

the problem with this is that neither orfantal or sandalath have their names changed along the long road of history so its unlikely korlat would either.

theres no doubt that the host for the souls though is ben delat who was a 7 cities mage, i dont think the similarities are there to imply the single souled delat boy was part tiste, but merely as a clue that korya would eventually reside within quick ben as a nod to the readers.

i think the timeline is also a little strange with this, it seems that for the tiste creation myth to work they would have existed within an isolated realm sepeate from wu, but the azanthani and others seem to exist in realms which touch kurald. so it is possible that the high king is kallor, when he meets the liosan in the later malazan books there is definite history there though i cant recall the details at the moment.

[Crow Clan Baby]

The timeline is to be ignored - what we're seeing is snatches, fragments of myth, a story told from the perspective of some of those who may have been there, and which may not be the same as the perspective of others, rather than any kind of precise description of events as and when they happened.

It's fully possible that Kurald Galain was originally part of Wu but somehow became "snatched away" from it at some future (K trilogy relative) point in time. Or something entirely different - we just don't know yet as the full trilogy hasn't been written and published, and descriptions from a future time must necessarily be viewed through the blurry lens of history and myth. Steve's an anthropologist - of course he's going to play with our heads in this manner.

[Siergiej]

As for Korya Delath being Korlat, it would suit perfectly the way SE likes to play with names, but I think Korlat just has not been born yet as of Forge of Darkness. Isn't it explictly said in Toll the Hounds that she was born after Sandalath was raped and got pregnant (or maybe I am messing sth)? And there is some wierd stuff happening at House Dracons near the end of FoD, so I think we will see the conception and birth of Korlat in the next novel.

Fathe Lightr being Huun Raal? Don't think so. He doesn't even have many supporters, he is portrayed as really weak, and Urusander has already been transformed into a Liosan. And Syntara states that she plans to make Urusander FL, so I think we're not headed for a big surprise here. Though it would be sooo SE-esque, I admit.

As for Quick Ben, I am more than sure that there is some connection with Arathan or Korya. And if I were to bet, I'd say that it would be... both of them. Maybe he has a soul of their child? Or has both of their souls? Or he may be Korya's souls shifted to the body of a boy with similar name - I know this is a hell of a longshot, but this sounds like something she could pull off. And there is just too much things pointing at that direction. The name Delath, the dolls, the Andii roots, and I think there was some mention of soul-shifting when Korya was shown the Nacht dolls. SE can be misleading, but I don't expect him to be throwing clues at us just to prove them totally wrong in the next 2 novels. So yeah, Korya/Arathan will have sth to do with QB.

The dragons appearing at the end being the ones that shaped warrens with K'rul - I really love the idea, it may be right.

Am I the only one who was surprised when Kilmandaros was revealed as the patron-god of Forkrul Assail? I always thought she was the "matron" of Thel Akai/Toblakai.

I think Grizzin Farl will die or "lose his corporeal form" or just wander off for all eternity. He seems a lot like Kruppe, but Kruppe is aligned with K'rul, so I don't think he would be Azathanai/Elder God. And the Old Man? I don't know why, really nothing to back it up, just a wild guess, but I have a felling he is Edgewalker.

The High King bits really made wonder. If we consider the timeline from Memories of Ice as the right one, then this cannot be Kallor. It's just way too early (I haven't read Stonewielder and Orb, Sceptre, Throne so I may be missing something). Maybe Dessimbelackis? Although i have no idea if there was any mention in the Malazan books about chronology of the First Empire. Maybe something Assail-related? But if the timeline from MoI is to be believed, then we will not see Dragnipur and chaining of Draconus inside the blade in the Kharkanas Trilogy - and that would seem unlikely, because I assume this is the moment every Malazan-fan is waiting for. And it happened some time after Kallor cursed Draconus, which happened a hell lot of time after events from FoD according to MoI. That's why I say the MoI timeline is wrong. I'd even go as far as to say that the prologue of Memories of Ice (the part with Draconus and Kallor) happened before FoD, so we can see the forging of Dragnipur and Draconus' fall in the trilogy.

That's my thoughts just after finishing the reading and skimming through this topic

[Kanese S's]

Kilmandaros is depicted as Forkrul Assail-like in the main series, with the more joints than a human has, especially, and also due to Sechul Lath, who is very much depicted as Forkrul Assail, being referred to as her son, though this of course could be metaphorical more than literal.

[Khellendros]

For me, Arathan gets the Aranatha (offspring/relative of Anomander, turns out to be Mother Dark) bells ringing.

No, I'm not saying they're one and the same, obviously, but just like with Anomander's son and father both being called Nimander, I think Arathan has some familial connection with the Purake clan through the name similarity. Either that, or his mother is Mother Dark herself pre-ascension (i.e. Aranatha).

As for Korya, the surname definitely hints at a connection with Quick Ben for me, though it doesn't have to be so direct as it's actually him. Could be one of his souls, but I think more likely an ancestor, which explains Quick's comments at the beginning of tCG, where he talks as if he's Andii, though admitting that 'the blood is thin.'

[amphibian]

Aranatha was a mentally disabled Tiste Andii who was taken over by Mother Dark. She existed as a separate person for a while.

[Khellendros]

amphibian, on 10 September 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

Aranatha was a mentally disabled Tiste Andii who was taken over by Mother Dark. She existed as a separate person for a while.

'turned out to be MD in the end' then, pedant

And I always read it as Aranatha was always there (well, as much as she could be there) even when MD possessed her, with MD just observing quietly in the background for most of the time.

[Vengeance]

Khellendros, on 10 September 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

amphibian, on 10 September 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

Aranatha was a mentally disabled Tiste Andii who was taken over by Mother Dark. She existed as a separate person for a while.

'turned out to be MD in the end' then, pedant

And I always read it as Aranatha was always there (well, as much as she could be there) even when MD possessed her, with MD just observing quietly in the background for most of the time.

WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU!!!!

[Khellendros]

Vengeance, on 10 September 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

Khellendros, on 10 September 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

amphibian, on 10 September 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

Aranatha was a mentally disabled Tiste Andii who was taken over by Mother Dark. She existed as a separate person for a while.

'turned out to be MD in the end' then, pedant

And I always read it as Aranatha was always there (well, as much as she could be there) even when MD possessed her, with MD just observing quietly in the background for most of the time.

WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU!!!!

Shhhh Venge, I'm not really here yet! But my long-prophesied return is imminently imminent, whenever the next sign-up thread opens. I do have a question though:

Who changed my profile pic?!!

[Vengeance]

Khellendros, on 10 September 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 10 September 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

Khellendros, on 10 September 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

amphibian, on 10 September 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

Aranatha was a mentally disabled Tiste Andii who was taken over by Mother Dark. She existed as a separate person for a while.

'turned out to be MD in the end' then, pedant

And I always read it as Aranatha was always there (well, as much as she could be there) even when MD possessed her, with MD just observing quietly in the background for most of the time.

WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU!!!!

Shhhh Venge, I'm not really here yet! But my long-prophesied return is imminently imminent, whenever the next sign-up thread opens. I do have a question though:

Who changed my profile pic?!!

You missed a wonderful time when the Kiwi's had their meet up. Silencer got hammered and decided to fuck with a bunch of our profiles. I was you and you where me for a while. We where both special admin(but couldn't edit other peoples posts) and your pic was turned into that. Tell silencer to change you back.

[Ceda Cicero]

Just to chime in on the potential Korya/Quick Ben connection... It seems like many or most of the objections to this possibility revolve around complications emerging from QB's backstory as elucidated in the main arc of MBotF (what happened in 7C and Raraku, his sister, a host of other things.) Korya or no, FoD or no, these same complications would apply to the basic idea that QB is an Elder (or elderish) being with confirmed ties to Darkness and, more than likely, Mother Dark, and those two things are pretty strongly implied, if not spelled out, in his first appearance in tCG.

For me, it's a no brainer that QB's origins and backstory are tied to the Tiste and will almost certainly be touched on in this trilogy. I'm not saying that doesn't make my brain hurt trying to make it jive with past revelations about QB, but I don't really see how anyone, after TCG, can try to refute the idea that QB is, in some way, shape, or form, intrinsically tied to very old Andii powers. From there, the Korya connection doesn't seem like much of a stretch, IMO.

[Studlock]

The dude has twelve souls, I have no clue why everyone is tied up in some kind of direct genetic ancestry. Anyone of those souls are now Quick Ben, and could also be part Andii or something of other that ties back to Tiste times. I don't doubt that he is tied to Darkness just like he is seamlessly tied up in everything else but what I refute is the idea that a Tiste is somehow genetically tied to the 'vessel' that we know as Quick Ben. This way we have both the explanation of his sister, Raraku etc.. and his Tiste connections. Making, and lets be honest here, 'evidence' out of the similarities of names is a bit bogus. I am not saying it's not possible but I really doubt SE would make it as obvious as a simply letter given how cagey he has been with Quick Ben in the past.

[Drusas Achamian]

I found a fascinating clue for Quick Ben being a Tiste Andii in Memories Of Ice (trade paperback page 1165).
It's the scene at the end of the book, when Paran and Quick Ben visited the fallen Bridgeburners in Moon's Spawn.
The two stand next to the sarcophagus of Whiskeyjack:

'' He [Paran] watched Quick Ben remove a small pebble from his pouch and lay it on the floor in front of the dias.
'I may want to visit later', he said, offering Paran a faint, sad smile. 'Me and Kalam...' Oh, Wizard... ''

Remember the Andii-tradition of offering pebbles to the remains of fallen soldiers, even to those of the enemy (like the Malazans)?
Like when Korlat returned the pebble she received from Whiskejack in MoI during TCCG to his grave.

Very interesting if you ask me. And by the way, in MoI, Quick Ben uses several times Kurald Galain: not only entering the warren,
but it's magic during combat.

[Siergiej]

Nice one, but I'm a bit skeptical. Quick Ben was using little stones like a GPS thus the 'I may want to visit later' part. About the Andii tradition, I thought they gave it to the people they love or care about, that's why Korlat kind of broguht it back to Whiskeyjack. great find tho', pretty interesting.

[Crow Clan Baby]

Studlock, on 11 September 2012 - 04:13 AM, said:

The dude has twelve souls, I have no clue why everyone is tied up in some kind of direct genetic ancestry. Anyone of those souls are now Quick Ben, and could also be part Andii or something of other that ties back to Tiste times. I don't doubt that he is tied to Darkness just like he is seamlessly tied up in everything else but what I refute is the idea that a Tiste is somehow genetically tied to the 'vessel' that we know as Quick Ben. This way we have both the explanation of his sister, Raraku etc.. and his Tiste connections. Making, and lets be honest here, 'evidence' out of the similarities of names is a bit bogus. I am not saying it's not possible but I really doubt SE would make it as obvious as a simply letter given how cagey he has been with Quick Ben in the past.

This, basically.

The body that we know as QB is a 7 Cities native, a former priest of Shadow, originally a rather mediocre sorcerer, and (presumably) quite a young man; the souls in him could be anyone and that's where any connection is going to lie. I'm also viewing "Delath"/"Delat" as being incredibly obvious misdirection (when it comes I expect something far more face-palming and kick-yourself-ing than that) whereas "Korya Delath"/"Korlat" is 100% consistent with other Tiste name-shortening examples.