[amphibian]

FIDDLER, on 25 August 2012 - 02:33 AM, said:

Icarium is the son of Gothos and that "Overgrown Hag" as per one of the books.
It cant be Arathan.

Lol. Still think that logic applies rigidly after FoD?

[Puck]

amphibian, on 24 August 2012 - 11:38 PM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 24 August 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

edit: because i had to mention that Varandas hadn't mentioned anything about the Venath series yet. perhaps we'll see some first hand jaghut meddling?

I thought those were the nachts that were with Withal in the main series - or at least Varandas is the guy who created the nachts.

Yeah, Varandas mentioned the nachts series iirc and those are part Venath demons, so the Venath are not a separate series.

[Abyss]

Great thread....

Drusas Achamian, on 21 August 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

In 'Forge of Darkness', we meet a lot of new, interesting characters. Some of them we may already know by other names: hidden identities.

Arathan

... Tayschrenn?

Clues:...

Your clue fu is strong and while i'm doubtful, i have to say you make a pretty good argument for this.

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Korya Delath
... Could Korya Delath be Ben Adaephon Delat?
...

I seriously doubt a direct connection, but the name and soul-shifting elements suggest a familial connection to me.

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Grizzin Farl

... Ruthan Gudd? ...

Doubt it. he names himself as a descendent of an EG in TCG, and he's right in the battle at least twice.

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Old Man

Young Azathanai. Has not already received a name. Could we have met him in Mbotf?

Not sure about whether we've ever met him. His 'outer space' aspect (which is me speculating from the descrption of Rarathan's reaction - eyes bulging, blood boiling, can't breath) is nothing we've ever seen before, but of course aspects change.

I think he's new.

amphibian, on 22 August 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

...

spim, on 22 August 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

...

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2. Grizzin Farl be dead. It might be possible that he's Edgewalker now.

I'm not saying this isn't possible, but it seems an odd role for the Protector of "Nothing" to become Edgewalker. Edgewalker protects Shadow, or what is left of Kurald Emurhlan. Grizzin Farl protected things like silence or grief. They seem to protect different things and for an Azathanai/Elder God to be bound as Edgewalker is bound seems very odd. Something would have to change considerably and it hasn't yet. Perhaps it will in later books.

I actually think this would make sense. Edgewalker almost never acts directly in his 'protector' role.

Aptorius, on 22 August 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

Also, Edgewalker was once an usurper, a would be god king with ambitions of power. ....

After this book, we can hardly take that as accurate.

amphibian, on 23 August 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

...My suspicion is that Arathan's mother is Karish - Hood's wife. Or another Jaghut. That'd change the flavor of the Draconus confrontation with Hood and Draconus's grief a bit, eh?

Doesn't fit the 'overgrown hag' descriptor, but it WOULD be a nice twist.

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Haha yeah I totally get you. Every time someone points out that Ben Delat must have been the Andii soul I just want to pull my hair in frustration. Of all the QB scenes surely that one must stand out, since it gives us so much valuable history. And it's not like we get a lot of that

One of his souls, iirc, is at least part Andii, and he uses KG more than once, so it's not without basis.

spim, on 23 August 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

blackzoid, on 23 August 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

Have to say I agree. i'm getting tired of everyone now popping up as Elder Gods. T'riss, Brood and now possibly Quick Ben and Tay's too?

Since Brood shares a blood vow with Anomander or whatever, it probably stops him from being an Elder God which is all about blood magic. Or maybe he follows the same fate as Anomander about refusing to be worshipped as an EG.

Azathanai aren't the same thing as Elder Gods.

Sinisdar Toste, on 24 August 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

joshbhoy, on 24 August 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

amphibian, on 24 August 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

joshbhoy, on 24 August 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

There has to be some connection between QB and Korya, i mean the dolls and the closeness of the names.

Korya's dolls ended up becoming the Bole clan in Mott Wood. That's kind of a stretch to relate the Korya dolls/Boles to the stick figures and effigies QB uses as throwaways.

Is this confirmed in the book?

I kind of rushed through it so might have missed some bits of info. Nearly completed a re-read of the main series and then ill read FoD again slowly while the main series is fresh in my mind.

Korya asks Varandas which series of dolls he gave her, and he tells her the 'bolead' series. it's still entirely possible that varandas or even korya creates some sort of doll ritual that leads to QB being the badass he/she/it is.

edit: because i had to mention that Varandas hadn't mentioned anything about the Venath series yet. perhaps we'll see some first hand jaghut meddling?

I think there's a link there, but i don't think the actual dolls become the Boles. I do think the souls trapped in the dolls eventually become the Boles, which links to the Bole hatred of the Jaghut we see in TtH.



Am wondering if:

- Hunn Ryll, and not Urusander, ends up being Father Light;

- the River God that T'riss awakes becomes the demon the Warlock King uses in MT;

- the Jheleckan kids end up as the Hounds of Shadow and possibly others;

- the nine dragons are the ones who assisted K'rul with shaping the warrens;

[Drusas Achamian]

Thank you for your response. The Hun Raal = Father Light suggestion was also in my mind. It would be totally Erikson-style.
And Hun Raal has also a strong connection with Osserc; he is like a kind of 'godfather'.

* And then, what would - for instance - happens with the daughter of Arathan and Fener. She's at least for a small part Azathanai.

* Who could be the 'High King', mentioned by Old Man and later by Errastas and Sechul Lath. Draconus was shocked when he heart the news;
could it be Kallor? We presume that Kallor is human; were humans around before the foundation of the Warrens and the Elder Gods and the Tiste civil war?
* Is Burn the daughter of Olar Ethil and thus (at least partly) Azathanai? Or is she 100% Imass and raised by the Eldar Goddess?
* Why does Burn sleeps? To stop the infection of the chained Crippled God, after his Fall, like Memories of Ice tells us, or, like FoD tells us, to dream, so we
can live. Or are those two reasons connected.
* Did the Crippled God crashed on earth before the events of Forge of Darkness? Why?
- Because of MoI, Burn sleeps to halt the infection of the Chained One, so we can live. In FoD, Burn sleeps already, as is noticed by Sukul Ankhadu.
- Twice a High King is mentioned: could it be Kallor?
- Draconus reacted like he was affraid when the High King was mentioned; could it be because Kallor cursed Draconus?

But there are of course important sidenotes: were humans already around during this time? And Azathanai like K'rul and Draconus are at the start of FoD not yet Elder Gods.

[Abyss]

Drusas Achamian, on 27 August 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

Thank you for your response. The Hun Raal = Father Light suggestion was also in my mind. It would be totally Erikson-style.
And Hun Raal has also a strong connection with Osserc; he is like a kind of 'godfather'.

Yep.
And iirc, i don't think Osserc himself ever refs FL as his own father in MBF or Malaz.

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* And then, what would - for instance - happens with the daughter of Arathan and Fener. She's at least for a small part Azathanai.

Not sure what you're reffing there since by gender, species and timeline that pairing makes no sense. If your point is that any child of a descendent of an Azathanai retains some element of that race then i agree, but the extent of what comes with that is wide open.

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* Who could be the 'High King', mentioned by Old Man and later by Errastas and Sechul Lath. Draconus was shocked when he heart the news;
could it be Kallor? We presume that Kallor is human; were humans around before the foundation of the Warrens and the Elder Gods and the Tiste civil war?

Tough call with Kallor being the High King ref'd in FoD. He's certainly the logical person but as far as we know there are no humans yet and in MoI the 3 EGs treat him as tho he is human and tell him he will 'never ascend'. The 'never ascend' part makes sense regardless if we just take the view that it refers to moving up the power scale, rather than any transition from his then-state.

It's also possible that given the passage of time, he is an Azathanai who cycles through aspects to end up as we see him in MoI and later learn more about.

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* Is Burn the daughter of Olar Ethil and thus (at least partly) Azathanai? Or is she 100% Imass and raised by the Eldar Goddess?

We don't know.
Olar's dealings with the Dog-riders leaves parentage open as a possibility. Another possibility is that Burn is simply the first dog-rider to ascend, and does so through a very odd means.

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* Why does Burn sleeps? To stop the infection of the chained Crippled God, after his Fall, like Memories of Ice tells us, or, like FoD tells us, to dream, so we
can live. Or are those two reasons connected.

The chaining happens after the Fall, which hasn't happened yet, or else happens on another world at a different time. Most likely it's still millenia away from events in FoD. The revelation here is that Burn was already sleeping, tho for all we know she may wake up, take a vacation, eat some tacos and then go back to sleep at a later date.

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But there are of course important sidenotes: were humans already around during this time?

Seems unlikely but not unthinkable.

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And Azathanai like K'rul and Draconus are at the start of FoD not yet Elder Gods.

If you consider Elder God as just another term for Azathanai, then sure they are.

'Elder God' is a human term for really old ascendents who derived power from blood worship long before the Malazan Empire was around. The term is no more meaningful than 'Azathanai', which the Azathanai themselves note at one point in FoD.

[Puck]

Abyss, on 27 August 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

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Haha yeah I totally get you. Every time someone points out that Ben Delat must have been the Andii soul I just want to pull my hair in frustration. Of all the QB scenes surely that one must stand out, since it gives us so much valuable history. And it's not like we get a lot of that

One of his souls, iirc, is at least part Andii, and he uses KG more than once, so it's not without basis.

Yes, but Delat is his family name, and his sister uses it, too. So if one assumes a connection based on the name it can't be one of the souls he acquiered later in his career, as he had that name from birth (and thus probably any other possible connection with Korya, as he already has that creepy way with dolls as a kid). That's all we were trying to say.

Which does in no way contradict that one of his souls is probably Andii or anything of the sort.

[Abyss]

The notion that his 'pre- soul shift' family has Tiste roots isn't unthinkable. We've seen enough part Tiste characters so far, Topper and Pearl notably.

[Dammon]

Abyss, on 27 August 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

The notion that his 'pre- soul shift' family has Tiste roots isn't unthinkable. We've seen enough part Tiste characters so far, Topper and Pearl notably.

What if it is both!

He is a descendant of Korya Delat and the Andii soul is also a Delat.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Dammon, on 28 August 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

Abyss, on 27 August 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

The notion that his 'pre- soul shift' family has Tiste roots isn't unthinkable. We've seen enough part Tiste characters so far, Topper and Pearl notably.

What if it is both!

He is a descendant of Korya Delat and the Andii soul is also a Delat.

some renegade, perhaps of drift avalii? oh the possibilities!

[Kanese S's]

I have decided that Burn is a stoner. That is why she is sleeping all the time.

[oman]

Maybe Old Man will be CG?
CG came from outer space.

[spim]

If you read TtH, it seems like MD has a huge part in the creation of the new Wu world. Well, it goes without saying that the EG/Azathanai/Burn/MD are all heavily involved but yeah, interesting stuff.

And maybe Caladan Brood's advice of peace to Anomander could be drinking the blood of dragons etc?

Draconus is repeatedly said to have walked the shores of Chaos, Forest of Night etc etc etc. Maybe that's what gives him the edge versus every other Azathanai?

This post has been edited by spim: 28 August 2012 - 07:51 AM

[Puck]

Abyss, on 27 August 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

The notion that his 'pre- soul shift' family has Tiste roots isn't unthinkable. We've seen enough part Tiste characters so far, Topper and Pearl notably.

Yes, but those characters would have been fair skinned without their Andii blood, QB is from a part of Seven Cities where people are very dark skinned to begin with, and he's constantly described as tall, and languid eyes have been mentioned as well, iirc. Not saying anything with this, just mentioning stuff.

That said, I personally favout the approach that the connection is not as direct, just can't put into wards what I mean, as I'm in a hurry and late anyway.

[Abyss]

His origins on 7C don't really preclude or promote anything other than that's where he was born. The connection is thin but far from unthinkable and i like the notion that SE slid QB's origin story in amongst everything else going on in FoD.

A Grizzin Farl link to Dessembrae is interesting but likely only in the sense of a younger god replacing an elder within the pantheon.

Old Man... Mael was my first choice but we're told he's left so no go.

Towards the end when Endest and Anomander go in search of Andarist and arrive where Enesdia was buried, their dialogue suggested her role wasn't entirely done with.

[Fifty]

Instinct says that Korya Delath is Quick Ben in some way. I am sure there is a twist, but it fits. I always felt as if Ben was a slightly feminine character anyway. There was something in an SE interview that made me feel we'd one day find out Ben is actually female well before this. With all of the soul-shifting shenanigans, in would be easy to find a way to explain Torahaval as a biological sister and spiritual descendant. It also seems very possible that Arathan is part of Ben, but less certain. Quick Ben has always seemed to be to be SE's favourite character, and he has promised in interviews that more will be revealed about QB, but that we can't possibly predict everything about him yet, as there have not been sufficient clues yet (those interviews were circa TtH, so those clues from tCG would be valid) I am certain someone in FoD is QB, and only Korya makes sense.

I thought maybe Old Man = Mael, as in "Old Man of the Sea" and the cold, and airlessness, but I suspect that may be misdirection, as the Old Man character seems very different to Mael in terms of personality. Of course, people change. I am vaguely reminded of the KCCM magic in the last two books, but this may be coincidence.

I was assuming Urusander would become Father Light, but I have not finished FoD yet.

Still, more to read, more to learn.

[Studlock]

I don't know why everyone is caught up on the Delath=Delat. Quick Ben had twelve souls (meaning his souls could be both a Seven Cities native and Tiste Andii), and a middle name that looks and sounds like the other Tiste names and has a family who is clearly a human and Seven Cities native with the same last name. Honestly I would be looking for someone named Adaephon rather than trying to make a connection between Delath and Delat. Also Ruthan Gudd in TCG gets a kick out off his name "Quick Ben". Also within the same passage Tavore's sword would kill him (Ruthan Gudd that is) so I doubt he's an Azathanai

[Malbolge]

Personally, on the parentage/origins of Quick Ben, I'm gonna go for him being the son of Arathan and Korya (A+K=QB?). With that, he has a prominent Mother (the first Tiste Mhybe, one perhaps created by Draconus - did he know that Haut would take her to the tower of Hate... and meet Arathan?), a connection to Dolls, a Tiste connection, and the Delath/Delat name. He also has a prominent Father, with a connection to Draconus (whose invitation to speak in DoD was quite familiar), unspecified 'power' (what power does Arathan have? We know what Envy/Spite can do... make you want it, make you like it). And what happens when an Azathanai (or half Azathanai) gets it on with a Mhybe? Or, could Arathan's power be to create Mhybes? And so any child coming from the union would be a Mhybe in a Mhybe? Or a special kind of Mhybe? Who can suck up souls and access them at will?

Prominent Mother and Father are needed for that speech of his on the Spar of Andii, I think. I'd assume that Korya/Arathan are going to get caught up with what is going on with the Jaghut, Hood and Gothos... and, that whatever happens there will have an impact on what is happening with the Tiste, MD and FL (or vice versa)... they're in the same trilogy, for a start. But also 1 small passage from the end of the book, as Gallan is closing the story... "He (Hood) raised a banner of grief, and this detail waves my intent, but Lord Anomander, at this juncture, was not ready to see it." makes me think that the 2 stories/chains of events will be linked. And Korya and Arathan's child will be involved, somehow. So, whatever QB was talking about in tCG on the Spar will be started in the trilogy.

Also... could (the word) Arathan somehow become Adaephon? Maybe little Ben has a slight speech impediment and the name gets... twisted a little.

@Studlock, just to point out... It's not 'Quick Ben' that Ruthan gets a kick out of... that was the name he would have known him by since he joined the Bonehunters. It's the name Adaephon Delat that sets him off... which is why people are looking for the connections between Delat/Delath and looking for anything like Adaephon to pop up.

Mael is Mael... from Setch and Errastas's last conversation, we know that he's called Mael, and he has fled far, to another realm. Could it be that Mael (if he's been forced to flee) isn't the 'nice guy' we see in Lether? Could it be he's a bit of a bad'un, and he's away getting his Jhistal on, perhaps on Wu?

Could Old Man be Ruthan? Ruthan was referred to as Elder, but not an Elder God. Old Man hasn't chosen a name (or a peoples) and so isn't a God(?)... just a sort of freelance Azathanai. Old Man = Elder. He knows Draconus, and there is that slight connection between the ice/cold aspect Old Man shows, and Ruthan's Stormrider magic. Could be he could 'borrow' it because he has some connection to where the Stormriders get it from. But, that Ice/Cold aspect makes me think that Old Man could become associated with the Jhagut (do they have an Azathanai associated with them, like Draconus/Tiste, Kilmandros/FA, Olar/Imass, Caladan/Thel Akai?). They don't seem to have any other ice/cold aspect to them, as yet.

As far as Ruthan and his identity... I think there's perhaps one thing to look for. Martial prowess. Well, maybe not prowess... but just being a Soldier. Can't remember if it's DoD or tCG where someone asks him why he joined the Bonehunters, and he replies 'habit'. For me, that implies he's some sort of warrior or soldier, prior to his time under the Azath.

Grizzin Farl, I have no idea... but remember, he was 'bloody', which he hasn't shown much of yet. I'd expect the Grizzin Farl we know to change, somewhat, before he becomes the Grizzin Farl worshipped in the Temples found in the Imperial Warren. <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
Icarium is Jhag... so half Jhaghut, and the other half Thel or Toblakai (or so Karsa sees in him in RG). We haven't seen any Thel yet... just mention of the 1 sleeping Queen waking up.

I had a couple crazy theories about identities, that were eventually contradicted/dismissed... QB being associated (according to his sister) with Wolves got me thinking, when the Jheleck arrived at Haut's house and tried to take Korya away, that he might have been raised by Jheleck (also giving him that whiff of the Soletaken). But then Haut says no, so I dismissed it. But then the Jheleck come across the Borderswords and Feren... but again, nothing comes of that. There's no half Tiste child being raised by the Jheleck, thus far. Another one was mention of a "sleeping Thel Akai Queen waking up"... which made me think of Burn. Then we find out she's half Imass, and asleep in a cavern under a hut in a forest in Kurald Galain.

This post has been edited by Malbolge: 01 September 2012 - 04:57 PM

[kingnothing]

Anomander irake, on 23 August 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

i also liked that the 3 "sisters" Menandore,Sheltata Lore and Sukul Ankhadu appears in the book, but under slightly different names.

Where was Menandore? (Awaits the obvious answer that I passed over)

[Malbolge]

kingnothing, on 02 September 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

Anomander irake, on 23 August 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

i also liked that the 3 "sisters" Menandore,Sheltata Lore and Sukul Ankhadu appears in the book, but under slightly different names.

Where was Menandore? (Awaits the obvious answer that I passed over)

There was an Officer in Urusander's Legion by the name of Infayen Menand, but I can't remember much said about them. The 3 'sisters' appear in the book under different names, because that isn't them... it's someone related to them. The actual names/characters do appear as well though (except for a Menandore).

Tathe Lorat is the mother of Sheltatha Lore. Tathe is the Legion Officer/Commander who takes the information from Sagander, attacks the Monastery at Abrara Delack, and then gives her daughter (Sheltatha) to the scholar.

Sharenas Ankhadu is another Legion Officer, who accompanies Tullas, Huun Raal et al. when they go to speak to the Wardens, accompanies Tullas in his search for his betrothed, finding the Dragon corpse on the shores of the Vitr, and then doesn't embrace the Light with Tullas. Sukhul Ankhudu is the 'guest' at the Tulla Hold, who comes and greets Orfantal when their party is camped outside, and then travels with Rancept and laughs for Burn. Don't know what the relation between the two is, and I seem to remember Sharenas stating that she had 2 more famous or prominent sisters... so there may be some more Ankhadus kicking around.

Infayen Menand is the closest to Menandore though. I would think that Menandore is a relation of hers, that hasn't been introduced yet.

[Tnexus]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Narad. I think he's one of those characters you're meant to think he's just a small PoV, but I have a feeling we're going to discover he's someone we already know. (Not sure who though!)