[worry]

For some reason, I always took his stroking of his beard as a sign of him being previously a woman. But that's not necessarily so, especially post FoD, if he's of non-human origin (though the male Azathanai in particular can grow beards).

[Ruthan Good]

The male Azathanai can grow any part of their body.

[Sinisdar Toste]

the azathanai who choose to appear as male can grow any part of their body. jeez guys, show some political correctness toward our gender-swapping compatriots.

[Roldom]

 ShadowOwl, on 18 February 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

I noticed a bunch of different things that may be related when looked at all together.
The stormrider at the end of Night of Knives took over the grandfather (soul shifted) who went to investigate, like Ruthan took over whoever's face he is now wearing with the beard. (Makes you also think about the similarity when Quick Ben becoming Rool the Rude and Tayshrenn did not recognize him.) The 'she' who gave Ruthan stormrider armor and 'responded like never before' must have wanted him to live through the attack and so a mother makes sense.

I dont remember the stormrider possesing the grandfather om NoK but its been years since I read it...

I do like the crazy Idea of Ruthan Gudd being a stormrider who soul shifted into the grandfather though. Would explain why he has storm rider gear

[Abyss]

 Roldom, on 25 June 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

 ShadowOwl, on 18 February 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

...The stormrider at the end of Night of Knives took over the grandfather (soul shifted) who went to investigate...

I dont remember the stormrider possesing the grandfather om NoK ...

I'm not saying that's impossible, and in fact it's a neat theory, but nothing that I can think of at the end of NoK or elsewhere suggests this .

[ShadowOwl]

This is where I got the idea: "The spirit, he said, was long gone back to his home in the sea. The girl knew he was lying. The ghost had got him. She saw it in his eyes - something new that had not been there when he left them." .... "She nodded but was not fooled. She would keep a close eye on him."

Now, the grandfather did speak with and then kill the stormrider, so maybe while he was thinking about it, he looked different, but his last thought was that the rider's blood was red. So was that the grandfather's final thought and was the rider's spirit now resident as well, like he was possessed ? The granddaughter saw something different in him. So, maybe not likely, but possible, especially in these novels.

This post has been edited by ShadowOwl: 25 June 2013 - 11:18 PM

[Abyss]

 ShadowOwl, on 25 June 2013 - 11:18 PM, said:

This is where I got the idea: "The spirit, he said, was long gone back to his home in the sea. The girl knew he was lying. The ghost had got him. She saw it in his eyes - something new that had not been there when he left them." .... "She nodded but was not fooled. She would keep a close eye on him."

Now, the grandfather did speak with and then kill the stormrider, so maybe while he was thinking about it, he looked different, but his last thought was that the rider's blood was red. So was that the grandfather's final thought and was the rider's spirit now resident as well, like he was possessed ? The granddaughter saw something different in him. So, maybe not likely, but possible, especially in these novels.

Ok, i had forgotten that detail. Nice quote fu!
I took it as the man was surprised by the blood, but it gives your theory some legs.

[worry]

I think when I read it originally, I took it as either there was some kind of literal haunting/possession OR a figurative haunting (like the grandfather saw something that changed him deep down, and will haunt him for the rest of his life), but I was never decided on either option since the girl was an inconclusive POV. Still not sure what I think.

[Abyss]

Nothing else has ever suggested Stormriders can do the soul-riding thing, but NoK also inplies a link between the Riders and Jaghut, so now that i think about it, it's totally possible.

But circling back on topic, i don't think the Grandfather i NoK turned into Ruthan Gudd. The way the Imass greeted Gudd in TCG seems to confirm some Az'ii link.

Guud as Arathan isn't unthinkable and that would even support a Draconus link.

That said, the way he charged the Nah'ruk in DoD to try and prevent the massacre would seem like a logical evolution of Grizzin Farl's inability to protect anyone, in the sense that he became so frustrated over time that he essentially gave up his aspect and becomes kind of self-destructive about preventing disaster.

[Blend]

 Puck, on 27 August 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

 Abyss, on 27 August 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

Quote

Haha yeah I totally get you. Every time someone points out that Ben Delat must have been the Andii soul I just want to pull my hair in frustration. Of all the QB scenes surely that one must stand out, since it gives us so much valuable history. And it's not like we get a lot of that

One of his souls, iirc, is at least part Andii, and he uses KG more than once, so it's not without basis.

Yes, but Delat is his family name, and his sister uses it, too. So if one assumes a connection based on the name it can't be one of the souls he acquiered later in his career, as he had that name from birth (and thus probably any other possible connection with Korya, as he already has that creepy way with dolls as a kid). That's all we were trying to say.

Which does in no way contradict that one of his souls is probably Andii or anything of the sort.

 Abyss, on 27 August 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

The notion that his 'pre- soul shift' family has Tiste roots isn't unthinkable. We've seen enough part Tiste characters so far, Topper and Pearl notably.

 Dammon, on 28 August 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

 Abyss, on 27 August 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

The notion that his 'pre- soul shift' family has Tiste roots isn't unthinkable. We've seen enough part Tiste characters so far, Topper and Pearl notably.

What if it is both!

He is a descendant of Korya Delat and the Andii soul is also a Delat.

I don't know if anyone has brought up this possibility, cause I haven't had time to read through 7 pages of thread yet, but what I am thinking re: Arathan and Korya is that they will start the Delat line.

Arathan is brought to Gothos to keep him out of the conflict that is arising in the Tiste lands, right? So what if he and Korya end up not being changed into Andi, Liosan or Edur? They just remain normal Tiste, so they don't get the black, white or grey skin? So they start the Delat family line, maybe eventually there is so much human breeding into the Delat line, or Arathan's half Azathanai abilities allow him to make his family look however he needs them to.

I think this would wrap the whole thing up in a nice little package. He could be descended from both, or even just Korya, without having to have the black, grey or white skin of a Tiste Andi, Edur or Liosan. He gets the dolls thing from Korya, the name comes from Korya. *shrugs*

[Hope&Fear]

Having reread FoD im pretty sure that Arathan is Edgewalker.

in the book he is often described as walking the edge while engaged in a conversation. and his name means "walking on ice" and he fell through. and well a thin sheet of ice can be considered an edge or if you like a boundary between 2 different planes.

also having read the malazan book of the fallen and encountered edgewalker in those books he usually comes across as someone with great insight and understanding just as Arathan does in FoD.

and another thing is this: Draconus said to Arathan that they would likely not meet again, and Draconus is on the edge of making his famed sword. and being trapped in it when anomander fights him. Errestas and Sechul Latch is probably going to travel and end up together with Kallor and possibly help him a bit with the destruction of his country all in the name of power. and we know that Draconus has started making his sword when he travels over to Kallor's land.


or am i wrong here?

[Puck]

 Blend, on 04 July 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

I don't know if anyone has brought up this possibility, cause I haven't had time to read through 7 pages of thread yet, but what I am thinking re: Arathan and Korya is that they will start the Delat line.

Arathan is brought to Gothos to keep him out of the conflict that is arising in the Tiste lands, right? So what if he and Korya end up not being changed into Andi, Liosan or Edur? They just remain normal Tiste, so they don't get the black, white or grey skin? So they start the Delat family line, maybe eventually there is so much human breeding into the Delat line, or Arathan's half Azathanai abilities allow him to make his family look however he needs them to.

I think this would wrap the whole thing up in a nice little package. He could be descended from both, or even just Korya, without having to have the black, grey or white skin of a Tiste Andi, Edur or Liosan. He gets the dolls thing from Korya, the name comes from Korya. *shrugs*

Eeeh, seriously, I feel stupid for not noticing that before.. This kind of connection makes perfect sense and is the missing link in my theory of why, how and when...

[champ]

 Puck, on 31 July 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

 Blend, on 04 July 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

I don't know if anyone has brought up this possibility, cause I haven't had time to read through 7 pages of thread yet, but what I am thinking re: Arathan and Korya is that they will start the Delat line.

Arathan is brought to Gothos to keep him out of the conflict that is arising in the Tiste lands, right? So what if he and Korya end up not being changed into Andi, Liosan or Edur? They just remain normal Tiste, so they don't get the black, white or grey skin? So they start the Delat family line, maybe eventually there is so much human breeding into the Delat line, or Arathan's half Azathanai abilities allow him to make his family look however he needs them to.

I think this would wrap the whole thing up in a nice little package. He could be descended from both, or even just Korya, without having to have the black, grey or white skin of a Tiste Andi, Edur or Liosan. He gets the dolls thing from Korya, the name comes from Korya. *shrugs*

Eeeh, seriously, I feel stupid for not noticing that before.. This kind of connection makes perfect sense and is the missing link in my theory of why, how and when...

Got to say, I like how that theory works and it made me think of the line from tCG by QB:

Quote

After a moment his breath caught and he half turned. When he spoke his tone was apologetic. 'Ah, Mother, it's old blood, I don't deny it. Old and thin.'

This post has been edited by champ: 31 July 2013 - 05:53 PM

[least branch]

 Aptorius, on 21 August 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

I would dislike it if Tayschren turned out to be an Azathanai in hiding. (I don't think there is such a thing as a half Azathanai, you either are or you are not, it's just potential). It wouldn't make any sense power level-wise. If Arathan really was the son of Draconus and a god level mage to boot I don't think he would have had trouble facing Anomander Rake in a magic duel. Let alone just ripping Moon's Spawn right out of the sky. Then again, it would explain why Tayschren survived his swim in the Vir.

I like your theory on Quick Ben and Korya. Especially the detail about the dolls. I too was wondering if maybe she was a relative of the Delat bloodline. How ever I think that Quick Ben himself, Ben Adeaphon Delat, is or was a mortal mage from 7Cs. The Andii soul that may or may not be inside him on the other hand I could believe was Korya. Might even be she was the one who arranged for the soul shifting. I'd just find it... unlikely that, if Korya made it to the modern age of the Malazans, that she would have a need to flee into a desert or have any trouble either avoiding or ending a fight, what ever is needed.

Grizzin Farl. I hope is dead and gone. It would seem fitting to me that he died during the sundering of Emurhlan or something like that. Maybe he takes a stand, opposing his own nature and pays for it. It would be idiotic if he was really Ruthan Gudd. I've mentioned this before but, what ever Ruthan Gudd is or was before he fell into an Azath, it would be ridiculous if he was a god level power player. If he really had the power of an Azathanai he could have ended or avoided the confrontation between the 14th and the Short-tails in so many different ways.

Old Man is a mystery to me. I am still trying to wrap my head around what his aspect is. In its description it sounded like Outer Space. Cold, empty, deadly.

I think we have meet him cold empty deadly like the bottom of the ocean aka Mael another clue knowing about ship high king built

[Korbal]

 Drusas Achamian, on 21 August 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

In 'Forge of Darkness', we meet a lot of new, interesting characters. Some of them we may already know by other names: hidden identities.

Arathan

Son of Draconus and at least half Azathanai. For his age highly intelligent. Is going to study with Gothos, the Jaghut Lord of Hate. Could this be the set-up for the creation of one the greatest mages in history. In short: could Arathan be the person that we later know as Tayschrenn?

Clues:

On page 112 (trade paperback) of MoI, Silverfox notices something about Artanthos (Taschrenn): 'Artanthos...' Silverfox quietly murmured. 'He's not used that name in a long time.' I don't have to mention how similar the name 'Arathan' is in comparison with 'Artanthos'. The name Artanthos was probably a memory from the part of Nightchill in Silverfox. If we take this theory for granted - that Arathan = Tayschrenn/Artanthos - who could be the mother of Arathan? Given the fondness of Draconus for female Azathanai (like Olar Ethil) and the fact that Tayschrenn receives a similar name in Stonewielder, could T'riss be the mother of Arathan?

Korya Delath

Relative of the noble Tiste house of Drukorlat and hostage and student of the Jaghus Haut. Like Arathan, also young and very intelligent. Erikson mentioned that we will meet Quick Ben in 'Forge of Darkness' but would not recognise him. Could Korya Delath be Ben Adaephon Delat?

Clues.

1. The similarity between 'Delath' en 'Delat'. Adaephon also sounds Tiste.

2. On page 55 of FoD, it is mentioned that Korya plays with dolls. In GoM, Quick Ben remembers that he played with dolls in his youth. Later, he 'plays' with Hairlock as his doll.

3. 'No, do not quest towards me, Son of Darkness. I value my privacy' says Quick Ben to Anomander Rake on page 235 (trade paperback) of MoI. Could Quick Ben value more than just the fact that he contains many souls? In TCG, when Quick Ben is at the Spar of the Andii, it is strongly suggested that he is Tiste. It is likely that he would keep this a secret from Rake.

4. And the biggest, most OBVIOUS clue of them all: Korya Delath is a mahybe, a person ready to be filled with other souls, like what happened with Quick Ben. On page 60 of FoD, during the dialogue between the Jheleck Rusk and Haut:

'You can do nothing more for her [Korya Delath]', said Rusk, 'We can feel the essence of her soul. It is dark, empty. It has no power. She is not a child of Mother Dark, not in her soul, for the darkness that dwells there is not Kurald Galain. It is simply absence.'
'Yes, perfectly so.'
'Then what awaits it [Korya Delath]?' Rusk demanded.
'In the language of the Dog-Runners, Rusk, I have fashioned a mahybe. A vessel. Protected, sealed, and, as you say, empty. What remains to be done? Why, it's filling, of course.'

This makes it all so obvious. Korya Delath is becoming Adeaphon Delat, empty, to be filled with the souls Whiskeyjack mentions to Anomander Rake, from page 355 on of MoI:
'Kebharla...more a scholar than a mage....Eleven mages on foot, without supplies...Late in the afternoon they came upon another body...a third corpse was found...more bodies were discovered...Renisha, a sorceror of High Meanas; Keluger, a Septime Priest of D'riss, the Worm of Autumn; Narkal, the warrior-mage, sworn to Fener and aspirant to the god's Mortal Sword; Ullan, the Soletaken priestess of Soliel...Set'alahd Crool, a Jhag half-blood who'd once driven Dassem Ultor back...Etra, a mistress of the Rashan warren; Birith'era, mage of the Serc warren...Gellid, witch of the Tennes warren' ...

Anomander Rake sighed. 'Soul -shifting'
'Aye.'
'I have heard of shifting one soul - sending it into a vessel prepared for it. But to shift eleven souls - eleven mages - into the already-occupied body of a twelfth...'
....'I see now why Quick Ben requested I probe him no further.'

Grizzin Farl

Azathanai, known as the 'Protector'. Later an Elder God. As many suggested, could he be Ruthan Gudd?

Clues:

On page 143 of FoD, Grizzin Farl introduces himself: 'I am Grizzin Farl....known among the Jheleck as the warrior who misses every fight, sleeps through every battle, and but smiles at every challenge.' In TBH and DoD, Ruthan Gudd arrives late at battles (or not at all), is known to be a sleepyhead and smiles a lot. Gudd is also known for his popularity among women, something Grizzin Farl can relate to.

Given the fact that Gudd fights with a Stormrider sword and armor, the fact that he has known Quick Ben and the fact that he is addressed by the Imass as 'Eldar', in combination with the unknown fate of Grizzin Farl, it would not be unlikely that the mysterious Malazan officer is the Azathanai/Elder God.

Old Man

Young Azathanai. Has not already received a name. Could we have met him in Mbotf?

I believe it was in RotCG that we see Tayschrenn going for dips in the sea of Vitr. After reading FoD, I'm under the impression that only one of Azathanai blood has the natural immunity to the Vitr's deadly touch. Maybe another clue, leading us to the assumption that Tay has, at least, some azathanai in him.

This post has been edited by Korbal: 21 August 2013 - 04:51 PM

[NefaraisBredd]

Come.on people! Read the.books, eh? Icarium is the.son of.Gothos! Aryan being Tayschrenn makes perfect sense. Triss being his momma makes even more sense. Grizzin Farl is misunderstood and highly.underrated. His passion and belief make.him ineffectual because he knows he cannnot change fate. He is the patron of lost causes, you would get pretty bummed our if people have been.flaunting your advice to.their.detriment for eternity. Ruthan.Gudd makes sense as.Grizzn Farl. Quick Ben could very well be Korya but I.think he is something far more ancient and powerful. Quick Ben is the only character, to my knowledge, that communes directly with Burn. Also, he knows seemingly everything and evenore than some gods and ascendants.Rake is ancient as heck, yet, Quick Ben avoids him like he.owes.hom.money from 300, 000 yes ago.

[NefaraisBredd]

And Quick Ben talks to other gods like they ate old friends. Gets a freakin horse made out.of shadow. Is the ONLy character to lay the smack.down.on Icarium, al eit briefly. He routinely.tricks gods and.knows.the.backdoor into the realm if death.and every other damn place. Quick may very well be an Eres'al or a Puppet made.by Hauts lewd friend.

[Siergiej]

Quote

And Quick Ben talks to other gods like they ate old friends.

Damn QB, you hungry bastard

[nacht]

 NefaraisBredd, on 26 August 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

And Quick Ben talks to other gods like they ate old friends. Gets a freakin horse made out.of shadow. Is the ONLy character to lay the smack.down.on Icarium, al eit briefly. He routinely.tricks gods and.knows.the.backdoor into the realm if death.and every other damn place. Quick may very well be an Eres'al or a Puppet made.by Hauts lewd friend.

I beg to differ.
Trull held up for a little time too against the dreaded Icarium rage.

[BlackMoranthofDoom]

What about these?

Scara Bandaris is Scabandari BloodEye, besides the name similarity, the book shows him having a longstanding friendship with Silchas Ruin, and towards the end the potential for future conflict with the massacre of the Deniers. perhaps the rift with from Urusander's legion will lead to him being the figurehead of the Edur.

Kagamandra Tulas as Tulas Shorn.

Maybe these are too obvious, but I just want to make sure I've got it right.