[Aptorian]

You've got the right names.

Also interesting is to note that in FOD Tulas is given the responsibility of the Dog Runner Soletaken that are sent to the Tiste. All though it is not clear yet what the connection is, it is obvious that this relates to the information we got in TTH where we learn that Tulas Shorn was the Master of the Hounds and that he knows about their origins and nature.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Those were the Jheleck hostages, but the rest is right on.

[Aptorian]

Jheleck, dogrunner, potato, tomato.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

I know, I know. I'm a douche. It doesn't help that the Jheleck can transform into something that runs and is dog-like, and then SE refers to the Imass as Dogrunners. Potatorunners would have been much better.

[nonamebutvaguelydescribedclothes]

I would really really really (really) hate it, if Quick Ben should be a disguised ancient tiste... I would even hate it, if korya was one of the souls within him.... I always liked QB being a very intelligent, educated and nosy guy, who wants to know everything, keep a rather low profile but play games with gods / ascendants and outwit them nonetheless.... it perfectly fits the malazan "never mess with mortals" theme.

Regarding Arathan I think he is Ruthan Gudd. It was my first thought when I read his name and it kinda "felt" right, while I was reading his storyline. I don't think that Ruthan should be more powerful if he was Arathan. He doesn't seem to be very ambitious and I don't see why he should have more power and more abilities if he just didn't pursue this course...... This Edgewalker theory is nice as well, but in my imagination the two charakters are to far away to match.

[Blend]

 nonamebutvaguelydescribedclothes, on 08 March 2014 - 10:47 PM, said:

I would really really really (really) hate it, if Quick Ben should be a disguised ancient tiste... I would even hate it, if korya was one of the souls within him.... I always liked QB being a very intelligent, educated and nosy guy, who wants to know everything, keep a rather low profile but play games with gods / ascendants and outwit them nonetheless.... it perfectly fits the malazan "never mess with mortals" theme.

Regarding Arathan I think he is Ruthan Gudd. It was my first thought when I read his name and it kinda "felt" right, while I was reading his storyline. I don't think that Ruthan should be more powerful if he was Arathan. He doesn't seem to be very ambitious and I don't see why he should have more power and more abilities if he just didn't pursue this course...... This Edgewalker theory is nice as well, but in my imagination the two charakters are to far away to match.

The thing is that SE has said that Quick Ben was part of Forge of Darkness, but that we wouldn't recognize him. So sucks to be you!

[kempster]

 blackzoid, on 22 August 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

 amphibian, on 22 August 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

without one being slightly contradicting to the other. Raest remains my pick for the most power directed towards combat in the books. He fought off Anomander, several Soletaken Andii and Silanah without his Finnest. It's possible that Gothos' Ritual that encased Lether was more powerful, but that's a slow working rather than a combat situation.

Slight correction.
Raest is very impressive but he actually never fought Rake during GoTM. Rake was not amoung the Andii Soletaken dragons that fought Raest in GoTM.
Raest is still up there as regards power displays in the books though. Maybe Draconus's entrance in DoD possibly would be up there as regards magical feats.

And he has an undead cat. That alone makes him Top-5 just on coolness factor!

[Egwene]

I will have to read through all 15 pages when I have a bit of time, so this may already have been discussed...

About the OP's theory about Arathan's mother ... After their encounter with Olar Ethil Arathan has a nightmare about some women and children. Without going into that, the interesting bit is at the end where one woman remains. He hears her singing in a soft voice with hearbreak in the words. "When she turned away and walked, he knew it was to the sea. She was going away and she was never returning to this place, and so she did not see the last boy rise up, still thrashing, fighting shards of ice, reaching for a hand that was not there."

I think this may point towards T'riss... but also...

I do wonder about the rest of the nightmare... Maybe this is about how Azathanai are birthed... maybe we need to re-think the conventional way of this happening...

The dream is in Chapter 11 and begins on page 472, then continues on page 474 UK MMPB.

Any thoughts?

Also... if Draconus is his father and T'riss his mother, Arathan must be about the most powerful Azathanai around. I can't believe that to be Tayschrenn.

[Egwene]

I have not yet read the entire book, so this may be way out...

An additional thought... whilst the sea points towards T'riss, the shard of ice points towards Omtose Phellack...

Maybe the alter ego of Iacrium is a possibility. Icarium is supposed to be the son of Gothos, isn't he? Well, if Arathan was apprenticed to Gothos, that easily explains him being regarded as the son... same as hostages would be regarded as part of the family. Being Azathanai he may have changed his features to fit in (and be concealed). Not sure where Karsa recognising him to be part Thelomen Toblakei fits into the puicture, unless it is Icarium subtly changing how he is perceived.

There is also the bit where OE asks Draconus what he has named his son... and laughs when told the name. Well, I could see 'Lifestealer' bringing forth such a reaction..

[Egwene]

Having finished the book and just made my way through this entire thread... some random thoughts in addition to the previous ones, which popped up reading everyone's theories...

*Ben Adaephon Delat - someone suggested to concentrate on the middle name, not the surname... well, the French word 'Dauphin' was the title of the Heir apparent to the throne of France. That does not sound too dissimilar to A-daephon, does it? If Arathan and Korya get together...

*Old Man - I fancy him being the Father of Draconus and if we then take the theory that he is the Man in the Moon, Arathan's name 'Walk on Water' could well be a dig by Draconus towards his 'Old Man'. Would be great if someone could dig out those memories by Brys which make references to 'cold airless moon guy'.

*Mayhbe/Mhybe = is a vessel that waits. It enables the birth of a soul with no fixed abode so to speak. So Korya herself is that vessel, I don't think that she is supposed to birth vessels. See The Mhybe and Precious Thimble.

*Location- tMBotF and FoD are both happening on Wu – Varandas uses what have to be Bhoka'rala for his Nachts. He describes them as coming from a desert to the south. Given that we are also told about the dog-runners, my believe is that they do all live on the same planet. However, as Warren travel had not yet been available, nor fast Dragon transport etc... the world of the Tiste might as well have been described as being on another world.

*Timeline issues - not sure how to solve them, but the High King mentioned at the end ought to be Kallor. At a guess, he is an Azathanai who fell foul of the others. Somewhere earlier in FoD there is reference that falling foul of each other is something they are very keen to avoid. Could be the fall-out from the encounter of Draconus, K'rul and Nightchill with Kallor. Alternatively, the reaction of Draconus could be that Kallor is inflicting his reign of terror as we speak and Draconus is building up to opposing it.

*Feren's child - forgot about her earlier encounter... so, yes, the child could be either Grizzin Farl's or Arathan's. Still like my theory posted elsewhere that regardless, the child might turn out to be the ultimate Matron of the K'Chain!

*Korlat - her blood is not pure... Wouldn't Orfantal's blood be described as un-pure as well? Is there anything in the main series about her being older or younger than her brother?

*Ruthan Gudd – interesting that he swears by "Roots of the Azath" – and when his sword is unveiled after having been hidden for centuries by magic he says "Gods below, spawn of the Azath" Don't think anyone else uses those terms?!

*Fanderay - was secretly inhabiting the body of Baaljagg, according to Spite, put there by a brother of hers. Do we have anything else on that incident of soul-shift that might indicate who that brother was and hence maybe still is?

*Emral being Anomander’s mother = also my first thought on reading those passages

*Quick Ben - questions thrown up around him... where does the sceptre fit into all of it? 'We' got almost all of 'them'. Who is 'We', but possibly more important, who is 'them'???? If we could answer the second question then maybe the answer to the first will be obvious. Age, appearance, memories... all possible to manipulate within the parameters set, so QB having a sister causes no problems. Plus... sister could be more than she seems in any case... Maybe the speculations have it all wrong and Arathan and Korya have a sibling relationship and they are both still around :-)

Would love to hear your thought on these and the previous ponderings...

[bobbo]

I don't know if someone has already said it but I thought Korya is Korlat... please don't hurt me!

Just seems obvious if you consider that a lot of other character's FoD names get bits taken out of them to make their new MBotF names and you take the 'ya' and 'De...h' out of Korya Delath to make Korlat...

[Mekeritrig]

 Khellendros, on 10 September 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

For me, Arathan gets the Aranatha (offspring/relative of Anomander, turns out to be Mother Dark) bells ringing.

No, I'm not saying they're one and the same, obviously, but just like with Anomander's son and father both being called Nimander, I think Arathan has some familial connection with the Purake clan through the name similarity. Either that, or his mother is Mother Dark herself pre-ascension (i.e. Aranatha).

As for Korya, the surname definitely hints at a connection with Quick Ben for me, though it doesn't have to be so direct as it's actually him. Could be one of his souls, but I think more likely an ancestor, which explains Quick's comments at the beginning of tCG, where he talks as if he's Andii, though admitting that 'the blood is thin.'

I was wondering about the naming conventions, how familial elements recur in the names Nimander-Anomander-Andarist, Sandalath Drukorlat-Korlat. Would that perhaps explain Arathan-Aranatha? She is a mhybe for Mother Dark, maybe a descendent of Arathan and Korya?

[Egwene]

@bobbo: Korya = Korlat... I guess I don't make that connection because there is no mention of a daughter (unless I missed it) and Sandolath seems to be too young to have a nearly fully grown daughter. Although, young is obviously relative where the Tiste are concerned.

@Mekeritrig:I don't think that Mhybe would be the right word for what happened to Aranatha. I think MD possessed her. Maybe the use of similar names is meant to confuse the issue.

@everyone... I would dearly love some feedback on my ponderings in the post further up this page. Still mulling on some of those points. I have also just re-read a bit in tCG where Knuckles describes the birth of the twins. It seems to me that we need to re-think how Azathanai come into existence and maybe parentage isn't such a clear cut issue either. Maybe in their case, it doesn't actually necessarily take two?!!

[Rictus]

 Egwene, on 03 April 2014 - 06:20 PM, said:

Having finished the book and just made my way through this entire thread... some random thoughts in addition to the previous ones, which popped up reading everyone's theories...

*Timeline issues - not sure how to solve them, but the High King mentioned at the end ought to be Kallor. At a guess, he is an Azathanai who fell foul of the others. Somewhere earlier in FoD there is reference that falling foul of each other is something they are very keen to avoid. Could be the fall-out from the encounter of Draconus, K'rul and Nightchill with Kallor. Alternatively, the reaction of Draconus could be that Kallor is inflicting his reign of terror as we speak and Draconus is building up to opposing it.

*Korlat - her blood is not pure... Wouldn't Orfantal's blood be described as un-pure as well? Is there anything in the main series about her being older or younger than her brother?

*Quick Ben - questions thrown up around him... where does the sceptre fit into all of it? 'We' got almost all of 'them'. Who is 'We', but possibly more important, who is 'them'???? If we could answer the second question then maybe the answer to the first will be obvious. Age, appearance, memories... all possible to manipulate within the parameters set, so QB having a sister causes no problems. Plus... sister could be more than she seems in any case... Maybe the speculations have it all wrong and Arathan and Korya have a sibling relationship and they are both still around :-)

Would love to hear your thought on these and the previous ponderings...

Now, I'm not sure I fully grasp this part, but I'm just rereading Memories of Ice and in the prologue Kallor is referred to as a mortal man. "No, it took a mortal human to achieve this level of tyranny over his kin." The cursing of Kallor probably marks the closure of his last empire, which is - according to K'rul's musings a few pages before - at the time of the First Empire of the human sort. It'd be just like the High King to date back to FoD. Beside which, he frequently boasts of many empires under his yoke. Kallor, oppressing people since the coming of Light. How utterly banal!

I think that Korlat may be the younger one, though I have no way of being sure. Although this might ultimately mean nothing, she was supposed to protect his brother. Perhaps Orfantal was the weaker one?
I've just checked on a flashback from TCG (pg. 465-6), between Anomander and Sand:
It was already in me. Growing. Wanting my love. But how could I love?(..)
"I am a hostage no longer, Lord. I am nothing."
"What did he do to you?"
But she would not answer that. Could not. (...)
"Sandalath Drukorlat." And with her name he reached out, settled a cool hand upon her brow. And took from her the knowledge he sought. "No," he whispered, "this cannot be."
She pulled away then, unable to meet his eyes, unwilling to acknowledge the fury now emanating from him.
"I will avenge you."
Korlat's impurity might have meant this, or perhaps the Draconean blood in her veins

As for our enigmatic mage, he has about twelve souls all told, yes? When Whiskeyjack recounts his tale to Rake he mentions a bunch of these mages, among them a 'mistress of Rashan.' I don't think it's SE's style to just unveil the mystery surrounding Quick Ben, not so overtly anyway. Perhaps it has more to do with one of his souls.

This post has been edited by Rictus: 16 April 2014 - 11:22 PM

[Egwene]

Thank you Rictus for digging that out. I vaguely remember reading that. Which chapter is it in? I have the UK hardback copy and can't find that passage on the pages you have given. Looked in the pages before and after as well... maybe I missed the passage...

[Rictus]

Ah, sorry. I think I have the US edition. In my copy, the flashback is in chapter twelve.
And I did mess that up. The page was 468

This post has been edited by Rictus: 17 April 2014 - 10:56 AM

[Andorion]

On the subject of Kallor's age, this is hust a bit of speculation. I have a problem with putting him in the FoD timeline. Thats because, at the end of FoD we see the beginning of the war on death, one of the most significant moments in Jaghut history. But in TTh when Kallor is talking to Tulas Shorn? (not sure. It was an undead dragon) it is quite apparent he knew nothing about the war on death.

Quote

‘Yes, an entire people gathered, a host of singular will. Legions uncountable. Their standard was rage, their clarion call injustice. When they marched, swords beating on shields, time itself found measure, a hundred million hearts of edged iron. Not even you, High King, could imagine such a sight – your empire was less than a squall to that terrible storm.’
For once, Kallor had nothing to say. No snide comment to voice, no scoffing refutation. In his mind he saw the scene the dragon had described, and was struck mute. To have witnessed such a thing!
The dragon seemed to comprehend his awe. ‘Yes again, High King. When you forged your empire, it was on the dust of that time, that grand contest, that most bold assault. We fought. We refused to retreat. We failed. We fell. So many of us fell – should we have believed otherwise? Should we have held to our faith in the righteousness of our cause, even as we came to believe that we were doomed?’

It seems implied that Kallor came after the war on death.

[Egwene]

@Rictus - Thanks, found it. For anyone else looking... it's on page 351 of the UK Hardback edition.
Re-reading that, I remember thinking how loaded with hints that whole passage was. It sounds like Sand is talking about a child growing in her. If this is Korlat, who might the father be? Anomander's reaction is obviously not one of approval.

@Andorion - Sounds pretty conclusive that Kallor must have been later. And much, much later at that, or he would have heard about it.

There is one thought that keeps creeping into my thinking... Could some of these events have taken place at the same time? Did Kharkanas exist in a sort of bubble world outside normal time?

[Andorion]

That is a pretty tough question and my first thought is we should wait for the rest of the Kharkanas books before coming to any f=definite conclusions. But, the world of the Tiste seems to be pretty normal at the beginning of FoD. I mean there seem to be contiguous lands to which travel by normal means is possible: for example the lands of the Jaghut and the Azathenai, or the lands of the Forulkan (Forkrul Assail) and the Jheck. The Tiste do not seem to have any magical powers as such, unlike later times, with the exception being Mother Dark, who as we know got her powers through Draconus. The world of Kharkanas is not yet the realm of eternal night, but it is becoming so, if you note Kadaspala's remarks about Mother Dark stealing the light.. There are also magical means of travel. For example Haut and Korya's journey to the Spar of the Andii where they discover the body of Hood's wife.

So to address the issue of a time barrier, I would say not yet, by that I mean not in FoD. But the concept of a time freeze may actually hold water. Loo at the condition of Kharkanas in TCG when the Shake and Sandalath and Withal find it. it is broken, but standing. The paintings, sculptures and artifacts are still there, though, if we accept the idea that a hundred thousand years separate the time of FoD with MBotF, then none of this should have survived. So there is definitely a preserving force.

[Hood's Gate]

I haven't read this entire thread, but I'm going to throw this out anyway: after finishing this book and recently reading RotCG/OST, I think Tayschrenn surviving after ending up in the sea of Vitr adds more evidence to me that he is an Azathanai, and is most likely Arathan. It doesn't seem like anything other than Eleint/Azathanai can survive the Vitr.

Any thoughts?

This post has been edited by Hood's Gate: 19 April 2014 - 07:25 PM