[ShadowOwl]

I noticed a bunch of different things that may be related when looked at all together.
The stormrider at the end of Night of Knives took over the grandfather (soul shifted) who went to investigate, like Ruthan took over whoever's face he is now wearing with the beard. (Makes you also think about the similarity when Quick Ben becoming Rool the Rude and Tayshrenn did not recognize him.) The 'she' who gave Ruthan stormrider armor and 'responded like never before' must have wanted him to live through the attack and so a mother makes sense.
Arathan was drawn to ice, when he fell through it, it made him grow older much faster as per Envy/Spite and when he had that dream about babies that mothers took from the ice well I think it was, when travelling with Draconis. Plus he wants to stay with Gothos and the jaghut will become ice aspected if they aren't already. As an aside, Edgewalker in N of K says the ice intruding into shadow does not belong there and the ritual that called it still bruises the realm. That ritual could have involved the jaghut/KG and the stormrider realms.

There may need to be a common denominator to join two realms like that and could that be an azathani? The only azathani linked to Arathan is Draconis. Draconis who is aspected to the Tiste and is hanging out with the tiste of KG. Now remember back to Stonewielder and Shell's mention of how the dead stormriders looked like the tiste andii she had seen except their skin was pallid.

Hummmm, conclusion could be Draconis tiste cross realms and Arathan's mother is a stormrider tiste. If that is true, it could mean it is possible the 'she' who clad Ruthan in stormrider armor is Arathan's mother and therefore Arathan could be Ruthan.

This post has been edited by ShadowOwl: 12 March 2013 - 05:59 PM

[nacht]

ShadowOwl, on 18 February 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

I noticed a bunch of different things that may be related when looked at all together.
The stormrider at the end of Night of Knives took over the grandfather (soul shifted) who went to investigate, like Ruthan took over whoever's face he is now wearing with the beard. (Makes you also think about the similarity when Quick Ben becoming Rool the Rude and Tayshrenn did not recognize him.) The 'she' who gave Ruthan stormrider armor and 'responded like never before' must have wanted him to live through the attack and so a mother makes sense.
Arathan was drawn to ice, when he fell through it, it made him grow older much faster as per Envy/Spite and when he had that dream about babies that mothers took from the ice well I think it was, when travelling with Draconis. Plus he wants to stay with Gothos and the jaghut will become ice aspected if they aren't already. As an aside, Edgewalker in N of K says the ice intruding into shadow does not belong there and the ritual that called it still bruises the realm. That ritual could have involved the jaghut/KG and the stormrider realms.

There may need to be a common denominator to join two realms like that and could that be an azathani? The only azathani linked to Arathan is Draconis. Draconis who is aspected to the Tiste and is hanging out with the tiste of KG. Now remember back to Stonewielder and Shimmer's mention of how the dead stormriders looked like the tiste andii she had seen except their skin was pallid.

Hummmm, conclusion could be Draconis tiste cross realms and Arathan's mother is a stormrider tiste. If that is true, it could mean it is possible the 'she' who clad Ruthan in stormrider armor is Arathan's mother and therefore Arathan could be Ruthan.

And "Walks on Water" could be a reference to ice floating in the water.

[Abey1245]

Where does he constantly refer to a she? <br style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">I didnt notice anything<br style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">Some quote fu will help.

What Sinisdar said! She who gifted him the stormrider "outfit", he refers to her a few other times wondering if she would "show her face" etc... I'd promise to find the exact quotes but things are pretty hectic and I probably would not find the time


"On a slightly different topic, does anyone think that in TtH, Seerdomin is playing the chess varient using Syntara's figure? it says on about pg 40 that he has a white queen. This suggests to my mind that she must eventually have a fairly significant role in the war/ conflict despite being less than able in combat. Still Hish Tula heads a faction as well according to the TtH flash backs and I thought she would probably fall in with Anomander and co going by Forge. Then again, it sounds like the brothers were allied the whole way through and took everyone for a ride pretending they were going to betray each other, so there isn't anything to say that most/ all of the Andii leaders were united but to all appearances weren't. "

I always thought that the chess game represented light's approaching attack on dark and that the chess game would reflect the time at which Spinnock Durav would have to bring the Tiste warriors back to the shore, where they end up fighting the Tiste Liosan after the Shake. Rake knew the time was approaching and extracted that promise from Spin before leaving to get his head lopped off and join Draconus within Dragnipur in a last ditch effort to save the gate of darkness.

The idea that the "overgrown hag" that is Icarium's mom (with Gothos) was Kilmandaros. And I don't think Arathan is Icarium.

Not sure who Korlat's father is yet, but she is the daughter of Sandalath, who was apparently raped.

[nacht]

Abey1245, on 22 February 2013 - 12:08 AM, said:

Where does he constantly refer to a she? <br style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">I didnt notice anything<br style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">Some quote fu will help.

What Sinisdar said! She who gifted him the stormrider "outfit", he refers to her a few other times wondering if she would "show her face" etc... I'd promise to find the exact quotes but things are pretty hectic and I probably would not find the time


"On a slightly different topic, does anyone think that in TtH, Seerdomin is playing the chess varient using Syntara's figure? it says on about pg 40 that he has a white queen. This suggests to my mind that she must eventually have a fairly significant role in the war/ conflict despite being less than able in combat. Still Hish Tula heads a faction as well according to the TtH flash backs and I thought she would probably fall in with Anomander and co going by Forge. Then again, it sounds like the brothers were allied the whole way through and took everyone for a ride pretending they were going to betray each other, so there isn't anything to say that most/ all of the Andii leaders were united but to all appearances weren't. "

I always thought that the chess game represented light's approaching attack on dark and that the chess game would reflect the time at which Spinnock Durav would have to bring the Tiste warriors back to the shore, where they end up fighting the Tiste Liosan after the Shake. Rake knew the time was approaching and extracted that promise from Spin before leaving to get his head lopped off and join Draconus within Dragnipur in a last ditch effort to save the gate of darkness.

The idea that the "overgrown hag" that is Icarium's mom (with Gothos) was Kilmandaros. And I don't think Arathan is Icarium.

Not sure who Korlat's father is yet, but she is the daughter of Sandalath, who was apparently raped.

From DoD...

Quote

Captain Ruthan Gudd drew a ragged breath, savagely pushing the nausea away, and the terror that flooded through him in its wake had him reaching for his sword. Roots of the Azath, what was that? But he could see nothing—the dust had slung an ochre canopy across the sky, and on all sides soldiers were suddenly milling, as if they had lost their way—but nothing lay ahead, just empty stretches of land. Teeth bared, Ruthan Gudd kicked his skittish horse forward, rising in his stirrups. His sword was in his hand, steam whirling from its white, strangely translucent blade.

He caught sight of it from the corner of his eye. 'Hood's fist!' The skeins of sorcery that had disguised the weapon—in layers thick and tangled with centuries of magic—had been torn away. Deathly cold burned his hand. She answers. She answers . . . what?

He pulled free of the column.

A seething line had appeared along a ridge of hills to the southeast.

The thunder rolled on, drawing ever closer. Iron glittered as if tipped with diamond shards, like teeth gnawing through the summits of those hills. The swarming motion pained his eyes.

He saw riders peeling out from the vanguard. Parley flags whipping from upended spears. Closer to hand, foot-soldiers staring at him and his damned weapon, others stumbling from the bitter cold streaming in his wake. His own armour-clad thighs and the back of his horse were rimed in frost.

She answers—as she has never answered before. Gods below, spawn of the Azath—I smell—oh, gods no—

This post has been edited by nacht: 22 February 2013 - 01:39 AM

[TyrantsMisery]

While it sounds like a fun theory to get kn board with I don't think I can get myself to back the Arathan is Icarium concept. Ruthan Gudd maybe but likely a no. We know Icarium is old, but imo from what we know so far Icarium hasn't been introduced yet. Now I could be wrong we know Jaghut are amazing when it comes to messing with tbe minds of people, so who's to say Gothos doesn't total recall Arathan and give him new memories.

One thing that has been bugging me as I read through here is the people saying Jaghut aren't immortal. So far we have no proof of a Jaghut dying of old age, its been referenced that the Jaghut just might have phad the first and oldest civilization around the neighbourhood. Then Gothos went all "Oh hey this civilization and living together thing isn't working lets just be hermit's." Not to mention the fact there are living breathing Jaghut running around circa MBotF. So I will concede that they may not be immortal but we have no proof to the contrary.

[Nevyn]

Some fascinating theories on here.

Some thoughts going back to some of the earlier comments, as I just went through this whole thread.

On not liking the notion of Tayshrenn/others being characters in FoD because that would make them elder gods, and/or that would make them too powerful. Also note that in NoK he gives his name to Kiska as Artan.

Remember that the Azathenai are not all necessarily gods, elder or otherwise. Even they need to 'ascend", and there are a few at least that never really refer to themselves as gods. And Arathan may have only half Azathenai blood.
Also recall that the amount of power they actually have seems both tied to their aspects to a degree and can grow (blood sacrifice and having worshippers in general). And it can also fade (Krul) So if a character like QB or Tayshrenn were related to the Azathenai, it would not mean that they should automatically be able to school Anomander Rake, for example.

The Tayshrenn stuff is intriguing, particularly since he eventually replaces Krul, and can survive Vitr, as well as the name stuff. I'd say it is the most solid theory.

QB is a tough one to puzzle out. Whichever part of him relates to the story is probably one of the shifted souls, I would think. So the name could be coincidental, but it could still be her. Need more clues there.

EDIT: Actually, another point on QB. Remember that the "mahybe" is not the same thing as one of the souls being shifted (as per the original one from the books who mothered Silverfox). So always possible that Korya is QBs mother, but that he was soulshifted from the start.

Old man spoiler

Spoiler

Old man is the moon (he is in Blood and Bone), I'm pretty sure. Hence Draconus saying 'I never understood why you were content with mere reflection". Prior to that I had been thinking he would end up as Mael.

Erikson changed up so much here (Sheltatha Lore and the others not being literal daughters, and her not being mother to Spite and Envy) from what we know, that I suppose Icarium could have appeared, but I doubt it. I figured he would be literally Gothos' son though.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 21 March 2013 - 03:03 PM

[Nevyn]

Just a quick mapping out of the reasons I buy the "Arathan as Tayshrenn" theory.

First, the ones the OP mentioned. He goes by the name Artanthos and changes his appearance, and Silverfox recognizes the name and says he hasn't used it in a long time. Part of Silverfox is Nightchill, who could well meet Arathan in the days ahead.

Second I mentioned above, he also gives 'Artan' as his name to Kiska in NoK.

Now, the rest:

Spoiler

Basically, the rest of this comes from comparing OST and FoD.

In FoD, T'riss (an Azathanai), emerges from the Vitr (which destroys just about everything but Azathanai) unharmed, but without her memory.

In OST, Tayshrenn is see continually going into the Vitr and able to survive it. He also (at least initially) is having memory issues. This would seem to imply that he is Azathanai, too.

He later goes on to basically take over for K'rul, which would be a tough ask for a mortal mage. Certainly way easier to take over the "aspect" of another Azathanai.


Now, taking on the objections:

If he's Azathanai, why couldn't he take down Rake with help?: First, no one in that mage battle was really doing all they were meant to. There was infighting between Tayshrenn and the others. Even if they were doing what they were meant to, the attack was on Moon's Spawn rather than just a head to head with Rake. Plus, Azathanai does not draw a straight line to unstoppable power. They don't all have the same strength, and the power they get depends on what happens to them, their aspect, and worship/blood sacrifice. Remember, Nightchill was another of the mages in that assault, and got killed (until she was soulshifted).

What would an Azathanai be doing as an imperial High Mage? Again, ask Nightchill.

In Night of Knives, Tayshrenn doesn't seem to know the rules for how someone can ascend until Oleg tells his theory. Shouldn't an Azathanai know? Probably, but this would fall under the SE / ICE "not everyone is telling the truth" catch-all. Plus, it could be possible (depending how much time he's spent with Gothos) that Arathan never figured that part out.

Tayshrenn uses warrens. So does Brood

Would an Azathanai be a priest of D'rek? No idea, but interesting that he was one of only two priests of D'rek to survive. For all we know, D'rek could end up being his mother.

Also, its not really evidence of anything, but both Tay's self-exile in the tower to stop affecting the world, and at some point writing his "confessions of Artanthos" seem to have a flavour of someone who spent far too long hanging out with Gothos ...

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 22 March 2013 - 03:29 PM

[Abyss]

Some good points there... the 'Vitr doesn't fry Azathanii but does give them memory issues' in particular.

[Iamme]

Few points about Arathan:
1) He is son of Draconus. I don't know about his magical abilities (yet to see in FoD) but he is a fearsome fighter.
2) His hands are always covered. When he "appeared" in Toc's story healing the wolf God, we don't see his face but we do see his fingers covered.

Now Tay is a mage. He has no martial skills (none we have seen). His warren is high telas ( a human warren). I am guessing Arathan is "aspect-ed" to something (my bet is ice). He cannot possibly be using a human warren created by K'rul. In BaB, we see that Spite's aspect is night ( who could have thunk!). Azathnai don't "access" magic the way non-azathnai do. Azathnai are magic. Others need a willing "azathnai" for access to magic. Caladan brood's aspect no doubt is earth.

P.S: Nighchill was not killed by Rake. I don't think he could have defeated her.

This post has been edited by Iamme: 23 March 2013 - 08:43 AM

[Nevyn]

Iamme, on 23 March 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

Few points about Arathan:
1) He is son of Draconus. I don't know about his magical abilities (yet to see in FoD) but he is a fearsome fighter.
2) His hands are always covered. When he "appeared" in Toc's story healing the wolf God, we don't see his face but we do see his fingers covered.

Now Tay is a mage. He has no martial skills (none we have seen). His warren is high telas ( a human warren). I am guessing Arathan is "aspect-ed" to something (my bet is ice). He cannot possibly be using a human warren created by K'rul. In BaB, we see that Spite's aspect is night ( who could have thunk!). Azathnai don't "access" magic the way non-azathnai do. Azathnai are magic. Others need a willing "azathnai" for access to magic. Caladan brood's aspect no doubt is earth.

P.S: Nighchill was not killed by Rake. I don't think he could have defeated her.

The mention of being a fighter is compelling.

The Azathenai not using warrens is not as compelling, really. They say specifically that Brood is accessing High Denul. He is accessing the Warren. If that's a lie or a misunderstanding there is no reason Tayschrenn's use of Telas can't be the same. Spite has access to Starvald Demelain (nameless ones ritual). Tayschrenn also binds demons (a separate warren, forget the name), and was high priest of D'rek, so not exactly a one warren mage, either.

I concede that the only thing linking him to Arathan specifically is name similarity. But I don't think the case for him as Azathenai or other ascendant is particularly a stretch. In fact, what is less likely ... an Azathenai using the warrens, or a human mage getting thrown through chaos, walking around in Vitr, and then taking over for an Elder God by just deciding to?

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 23 March 2013 - 03:51 PM

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Its not that i dont think that Tay is Arathan, and within all reasoning its actually quite possible. I just dont see it as SEs style of a character actually being someone else. If it was, it was, with the possible exception Nightchill, usually revealed in the same book who a character was supposed to be. I like the idea od Ruthan being some elder force that is tagging along with the bonehunters. makes their mission more important to the reader that an ancient force would settle for a mere captaincy in a renegade army. I like the idea of tayschrenn being so accomplished a human mage that he accesses ancient magic and is chosen to ultimately be a central force in the magic system. Its a nice arc for that character.

That said, i love conjecture. Arathan is Tufty.

[Nevyn]

Stalking Stonny, on 23 March 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

Its not that i dont think that Tay is Arathan, and within all reasoning its actually quite possible. I just dont see it as SEs style of a character actually being someone else. If it was, it was, with the possible exception Nightchill, usually revealed in the same book who a character was supposed to be. I like the idea od Ruthan being some elder force that is tagging along with the bonehunters. makes their mission more important to the reader that an ancient force would settle for a mere captaincy in a renegade army. I like the idea of tayschrenn being so accomplished a human mage that he accesses ancient magic and is chosen to ultimately be a central force in the magic system. Its a nice arc for that character.

That said, i love conjecture. Arathan is Tufty.

It may not have BEEN SE's style, but this is his first prequel, and he dropped hints on Ruthan in the last couple of books, and hints about Tayschrenn and Quick for far longer.

[Ruthan Good]

I am definitely in the Team Ruthan Gudd on the Arathan identity. I will explain myself once I do some rereads and also reach a more respectable hour. I think there should be a poll on this.
Although, when was Grizzin Farl actually mentioned before FoD?

And yeah, the name connection between Korya and Quick is too close to be a red herring, even by SE's standards, especially with all the hints given in the final duology.

Edit
UNLESS:
Quick/The Andii he soulshifts with ("collects") takes the name Delat to honour Korya.

This post has been edited by Ruthan Good: 24 March 2013 - 02:14 AM

[Nevyn]

Ruthan Good, on 24 March 2013 - 02:12 AM, said:

Although, when was Grizzin Farl actually mentioned before FoD?

There are a couple mentions through the series. Cotillion mentions him as one of the gods an altar in the imperial warren could have been for.

And Errastas mentions him, too, while running down gods that are no longer around or a threat. I I forget the exact wording.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 24 March 2013 - 04:49 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

Nevyn, on 24 March 2013 - 04:45 AM, said:

Ruthan Good, on 24 March 2013 - 02:12 AM, said:

Although, when was Grizzin Farl actually mentioned before FoD?

There are a couple mentions through the series. Cotillion mentions him as one of the gods an altar in the imperial warren could have been for.

And Errastas mentions him, too, while running down gods that are no longer around or a threat. I I forget the exact wording.

Grizzin Farl is mentioned as early as The Bonehunters list of ascendents.

[tiam]

Hes one of the few EG thats mentioned that never appears in the main arc. hes mentioned in BH during Kalam and QB assault on the Skykeeps in the Imperial warren but only in passing, and Errastas mentions him when listing those EG that are no longer around any more.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Nevyn, on 24 March 2013 - 02:09 AM, said:

Stalking Stonny, on 23 March 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

Its not that i dont think that Tay is Arathan, and within all reasoning its actually quite possible. I just dont see it as SEs style of a character actually being someone else. If it was, it was, with the possible exception Nightchill, usually revealed in the same book who a character was supposed to be. I like the idea od Ruthan being some elder force that is tagging along with the bonehunters. makes their mission more important to the reader that an ancient force would settle for a mere captaincy in a renegade army. I like the idea of tayschrenn being so accomplished a human mage that he accesses ancient magic and is chosen to ultimately be a central force in the magic system. Its a nice arc for that character.

That said, i love conjecture. Arathan is Tufty.

It may not have BEEN SE's style, but this is his first prequel, and he dropped hints on Ruthan in the last couple of books, and hints about Tayschrenn and Quick for far longer.

What u might consider hints could just as easily be descriptive writing and/or misdirection. Arathan could still easily be the Builder or even no one we have ever seen. The hints dropped about QB could be anything. And the stuff about Tayschrenn makes sense in the way that wrongfully convicting someone based on eyewitness accounts makes sense. Yes everything you say is true, but its also just as true that Tay could have ascended into his T'renn role as a human. Arathan could die for all we know by the end of the trilogy. I dont think that a character is a surprise someone else in these books. I think they are who they are. But im not a spoil sport, so by all means carry on. Dont mind me.

[nacht]

nacht, on 18 February 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

ShadowOwl, on 18 February 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

I noticed a bunch of different things that may be related when looked at all together.
The stormrider at the end of Night of Knives took over the grandfather (soul shifted) who went to investigate, like Ruthan took over whoever's face he is now wearing with the beard. (Makes you also think about the similarity when Quick Ben becoming Rool the Rude and Tayshrenn did not recognize him.) The 'she' who gave Ruthan stormrider armor and 'responded like never before' must have wanted him to live through the attack and so a mother makes sense.
Arathan was drawn to ice, when he fell through it, it made him grow older much faster as per Envy/Spite and when he had that dream about babies that mothers took from the ice well I think it was, when travelling with Draconis. Plus he wants to stay with Gothos and the jaghut will become ice aspected if they aren't already. As an aside, Edgewalker in N of K says the ice intruding into shadow does not belong there and the ritual that called it still bruises the realm. That ritual could have involved the jaghut/KG and the stormrider realms.

There may need to be a common denominator to join two realms like that and could that be an azathani? The only azathani linked to Arathan is Draconis. Draconis who is aspected to the Tiste and is hanging out with the tiste of KG. Now remember back to Stonewielder and Shimmer's mention of how the dead stormriders looked like the tiste andii she had seen except their skin was pallid.

Hummmm, conclusion could be Draconis tiste cross realms and Arathan's mother is a stormrider tiste. If that is true, it could mean it is possible the 'she' who clad Ruthan in stormrider armor is Arathan's mother and therefore Arathan could be Ruthan.

And "Walks on Water" could be a reference to ice floating in the water.

An additional supporting point for the theory that Arathan's mother is Stormrider related and Arathan may be Ruthan

In Stonewielder, the lady says this to Ussu..

Quote

Yet the true enemy awaits. What of the Raiders?'
The lips twisted, snarling. 'I have no vision of them. She stymies me yet. That Queen bitch has ever stood in my way!' The body eased beneath Ussu, the fit seeming to pass. 'Kneel before me, Ussu. Embraces me as your goddess'

I thought originally that maybe the Lady was referring to the Queen of Dreams, but it could be possible she was referring to the queen of the stormriders. (who gifted the armor to Ruthan) and that she might be Nerruse (QB referes to Stormriders as being Mael-bit Nerruse Whorespawn)

[Iamme]

Unfortunately Ruthan Gudd has shown no noticeable skill with a blade. Only thing known about him is that he is very old.

[nacht]

Iamme, on 24 March 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

Unfortunately Ruthan Gudd has shown no noticeable skill with a blade. Only thing known about him is that he is very old.

I dont think we have any information to prove that Arathan was a master of the sword. Ivis feels that Arathan has natural potential and Draconus warns him that if he chews his fingers, his ability would be negatively effected. Whether Arathan himself is passionate about it, we dont know. He does not seem to go around training or testing himself. I dont think natural ability itself will make you a master of anything without practice and application (think of the Seguleh's continuous training and dueling)

My guesses are 1) Arathan is Edgewalker, 2) a soul in QB 3) Ruthan
I favor Grizzin Farl as being Ruthan (The Stormrider queen could have gifted him the armor too)

This post has been edited by nacht: 24 March 2013 - 02:01 PM