[Sparrohawk]

Read my post again. I was not speaking out against criticism. I have my own criticism of all the Malaz books and would air them, if I wanted to. I have nothing against the idea. I'm questioning the appropriateness of saying 'You did it badly, this is how you should have done it so that it was better' and then trotting out a laundry list of things that should have been put into a book. That's not criticism, nor is it constructive because it's not an answerable comment. It fosters nothing, provides nothing, and quite probably means nothing because it injects static noise into a conversation that could be about something meaningful, like the actual real content of the book. I disagree that it's not presumptuous. To say that a book is bad or good, sure. To say that a book is bad and 'you should have done this, this, this, etc.' is another matter entirely. But perhaps that's just personal preference talking.

[worry]

Another good point, Apt really composed his arguments badly and he should have constructed them in the superior manner you have described. Would have been much better that way.

[nethernova]

The book was a disappointment for one simple reason: no Karsa/Torvald reunion.

[Sinisdar Toste]

nethernova, on 12 June 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

The book was a disappointment for one simple reason: no Karsa/Torvald reunion.

ICE even went out of his way to say, "oh hey, yeah, karsa's just chillin in this cave here, but you all ain't gonna see him this book so put away your little flags and read about torvald nom dive-bombing seguleh instead, k?."

[Defiance]

No Karsa and Torvald union in this book did not disappoint me; I want Erikson to write it, not ICE. Writing about Karsa did seem rather pointless, though; if there'd been a reference to how he was simply waiting until the time came to kill a god, I could have gone with it, but as it stands it just falsely suggested that Karsa would be appearing at some point or another during the book.

I do believe that such a reunion is inevitable in the Toblakai Trilogy (so, in 5 years or so). If we don't see it then I'll definitely cry foul play, but given that Karsa was only in Darujhistan for the hectic climax of TtH, I couldn't blame Erikson for the lack of a reunion (still sucks that it didn't happen, though).

[tiam]

It will happen during the TTT trilogy. I have this theory that Torvald begs Karsa for his the life of his city and Karsa agrees to leave it...until last. D'stan then, as the richest city, provides supplies and other essentials for the TTT horde, though as a trading nation im not sure what wealth it will have. This provides a tense relationship between Karsa and Torvald culminating with Torvald killing his old friend for the good of his city, thus saving the world from rampaging TTT horse warriors.

You heard it here first people.

[Fist Gamet]

Sparrohawk, on 12 June 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

Read my post again. I was not speaking out against criticism. I have my own criticism of all the Malaz books and would air them, if I wanted to. I have nothing against the idea. I'm questioning the appropriateness of saying 'You did it badly, this is how you should have done it so that it was better' and then trotting out a laundry list of things that should have been put into a book. That's not criticism, nor is it constructive because it's not an answerable comment. It fosters nothing, provides nothing, and quite probably means nothing because it injects static noise into a conversation that could be about something meaningful, like the actual real content of the book. I disagree that it's not presumptuous. To say that a book is bad or good, sure. To say that a book is bad and 'you should have done this, this, this, etc.' is another matter entirely. But perhaps that's just personal preference talking.

Accepted, to a certain point as I still defend Apt's (and mine) right to express his opinion, which - and correct me if I am wrong - was all he was doing. If I go to the movies and dislike a film I will feel entitled to have my say, including how it could have been better (I refer you to the Movie Thread for other like-minded souls ). If I pay to watch a football game then I will voice my outrage, disgust, etc at poor play and decisions. It all goes back to what I believe and that is if I have paid for the product (entertainment) then I have the right to have my say. ICE could very well have read Apt's comments and thought 'you know, I wish I'd thought of that bit there'. Guess we will never know but it's a foolish writer who only listens to praise.

More often than not, as I read any book, I find that I can think of a number of ways that I would have done them differently that would have, imho, been better. Better for me? Yes, admittedly, just my preference. I hope one day to be published and know that with this I will have to accept criticism, sometimes rightly, sometimes not, but that's the game.

[Khellendros]

blackzoid, on 09 May 2012 - 11:41 PM, said:

Aptorius, on 09 May 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

Did Esslemont really write these last three books RCG, SW and OST years and years ago? This is the final product that they release? Why not re-work them before publishing them? How could you read these books with years of distance between their creation and now and be satisfied with the over all narrative? Why hasn't an editor demanded that the jumbled storylines be smoothed out? That the unsatisfying endings be fleshed out?

I hate to be cynical but, if these books really are 10 years old, this smells more like an easy way to cash in on the main series popularity than a faithful continuation of the Malazan storyline.

Only NoK and RoTCG were written years and years ago. SW and OST were written recently.

http://fantasyhotlis...-interview.html (he mentions progress on SW)
http://elitistbookre...-esslemont.html (he mentions progress on OST)

In another interview he states (or it is stated) that Stonewielder was finished two years before publication.

[Otataral Toblakai]

Contrary to 'popular' opinion, I happily ingested all that OST had to offer and found it an incredible book, as with the rest ICE novels. For those 'blasting' it for a 'lack of storytelling' , it's 'randomness' , it's 'meandering here and there', you have to understand that this is what makes ICE/SE/Malazan what it is. The random mind screwing storylines, characters, POVs, massive cast and the things not happening according to a recipe or according to what readers deem best is what makes the entire Malazan biopic superb - without equal in so far as I have delved into what fantasy has to offer. Its sheer size, its epicness, its unpredictability is what makes it what it is. It IS a challenge for the reader and that IS what makes it wonderful.

Not to say that I had no qualms with the book in question - mine being its lack of an even more 'epic' storyline.


I'd suggest Tad Williams for those looking for things happening in a good ol' fashioned straightforward manner with storytelling.

[Aptorian]

Sparrohawk, on 12 June 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

Read my post again. I was not speaking out against criticism. I have my own criticism of all the Malaz books and would air them, if I wanted to. I have nothing against the idea. I'm questioning the appropriateness of saying 'You did it badly, this is how you should have done it so that it was better' and then trotting out a laundry list of things that should have been put into a book. That's not criticism, nor is it constructive because it's not an answerable comment. It fosters nothing, provides nothing, and quite probably means nothing because it injects static noise into a conversation that could be about something meaningful, like the actual real content of the book. I disagree that it's not presumptuous. To say that a book is bad or good, sure. To say that a book is bad and 'you should have done this, this, this, etc.' is another matter entirely. But perhaps that's just personal preference talking.

I am late to make a reply here but I would like to point out that you are focusing on the wrong part of my criticism here. I dedicated one or two paragraphs to a possible alternative storyline not as an example how I think the book should have been written but an example of how easy it was to think of a story that packed more entertainment, was more coherent and yes, ultimately, also more traditional. I know these books are supposed to be more high brow than the common dross they feed the unwashed fantasy masses but would it kill them to throw in an atomic explosion and a couple of gods clashing here and there?

My problem was not with the book as a stand alone story of war and death on the continent of Genebackis. It was looking at the big picture. Watching where this series, this universe came from, and seeing where it is heading. I've said this before and I'll say it again. I think that the pace of the main series, a book a year, as well as this side story, is hurting the series legacy. There is no way you can tell me that these latest books made by Erikson and Esslemont feel like the first books. For the first 5 books I thought that the series was very satisfying both in its intellectual approach as well as creatively and in the narrative. Since then I have kept coming back because these books are highly stimulating intellectually. I like Eriksons philosophical ramblings. They were what saved The Crippled God in my opinion from being... mediocre. Yes, that is how much bullshit I thought the final convergence was. But in terms of creativity and the narrative I feel the series has gone off its tracks and I have no idea where the hell the two authors are going any longer. I guess that in itself is kind of thrilling, but the "flakiness" of their story lines evolution has now come to the point where I am no longer surprised when I get surprised, if that makes sense. The unexpected resurections are now expected. The sudden deaths now feel less sudden. And I no longer anticipate the big final convergence because for the past 6 years in every book we go from what could have been an epic clash of titans to an anti-climax. And because, I suspect, there is no where the same level of depth to the planning of the later books they don't feel as tight. There are whole chunks of story that feel horribly unsatisfying to read. The stories do not feel complete. There is no sense of closure. You can't tell me that the way Esslemont deflates the threat in this book gave you satisfaction? Personally I was struck with disbelief. Did he just kill the Bad Guy just like that? No fight with Brood or Envy or Dassem? But... But... WHY? When I read 700 pages I expect a big pay off, you can hardly call what we got a pay off. Granted it was not as bad as the ending of Stonewielder but the entire book was far more boring.

Maybe I am stuck in the past but I think it is a problem that OST doesn't even come near matching the first books in its ambition. But yeah, ultimately this is a matter of taste and of expectations. Maybe the series is heading in a different direction than I expected. Maybe I am running sour on the series. That's what happens when a series runs for over a decade and you grow older.

This post has been edited by Aptorius: 16 June 2012 - 08:10 PM

[worry]

As per usual, your complaints about ICE's penchant for anticlimax are valid while your similar claims about SE's later work are buttwash in a handbasket (there were like a cool dozen ascendants at the end of TTH for instance). His later books trump the earlier ones by about a bajillion light years, and those early ones (besides GotM perhaps) are certainly A to A+ books in their own right. But that's because he's built on a legacy, whereas ICE -- for all his accomplishments and fairly frequent good ideas -- so far hasn't. While I believe he's going somewhere with all this, it's unclear that he is even from his own climaxes. My own opinions on this book, good and bad, are spread throughout this forum already so I don't need to rehash them here.

Anyway, point being, Apt didn't create this thread in a vacuum, and it's not up to Newbie Newbersons to teach him how to appreciate the Malazan universe novels. He's been reading them since before your grandpappy learned to drool. It's not up to Oldy Oldersons on the board either, but they at least get priority in making fun of him for his crazy ass opinions, so no cutting in line.

[Aptorian]

worrywort, on 16 June 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

As per usual, your complaints about ICE's penchant for anticlimax are valid while your similar claims about SE's later work are buttwash in a handbasket (there were like a cool dozen ascendants at the end of TTH for instance). His later books trump the earlier ones by about a bajillion light years,

Now you just talking crazy, son.

Spoiler for book 8, 9 and 10 of the MBOTF

Spoiler

Yeah, there was quite a gathering at the end of TTH but it was again one of those "ha! here comes a story twist out of left field" endings and the why and how of the convergence never quite made sense. It felt contrived. (That discussion we've had a dozen times in another book forum)

But do you remember the journey up to the convergence in TTH? Very little happens in that book up to the actual show downs. Karsa and Dassem go on a long journey. Rake and co brood a lot in Black Coral. The Redeemer and The Dying God take up HUGE chunks of the book but ultimately make little sense because Erikson has something about the war for oil he'd like to talk to us about... or something. Nimander, Kallor and Co manage to outshine the rest of the cast and people go about their lives in Darujistan. All the stuff about Humble Measure and the fate of the BBs is just left hanging in the air along with the future of Kallor and Karsa. The Tyrant and Crokus/Cutter parts are just plain wasted paper.

But again. It's okay because Erikson was trying out some new ideas for the narrative and it was interesting. Still it was a departure from the previous 6 out of 7 books that had mainly revolved around armies on the march clashing with what ever.

Book 9 was slow as molasses and it had a crazy cliff hanger ending that took every one by surprise but it was okay because we knew that book 9 and 10 were actually one book. So book 10 would pretty much be all convergence then, right? Fuck no, it spent another 3/4 setting up the ending, which should have been done in book 9, and then it gave us the most lackluster menagerie of half-ass'd armies and ascendants. Never got a fight between Karsa and Calm (or Iccy), never saw Iccy go nuts, never got that pantheon war, The Errant and Killy disappointed us all, Olar Ethil died a stupid predictable death, etc. etc. The entirety of Book 10 should have been a convergence. It should have been nothing but one race or army after another arriving and clashing on one grand field of battle with every single god available either present or manipulating things in the wings. It should have been dragons battling skykeeps, while Gods were fighting Jade statues and a million soldiers and demons fought for possession of the heart of the Crippled God. It should have taken place on an a mountain of corpses in a sea of ascendant blood under a sky of fire and brimstone as Burn shook in her last spasms of death. Not what ever the hell those unimposing FAs were up to.

But like I mentioned above I was distracted by that discussion Erikson was having with himself about Man vs Nature and beast. It was pretty interesting. I wonder what the series would have looked like if he'd started GotM with that discussion.

This post has been edited by Aptorius: 16 June 2012 - 08:53 PM

[Defiance]

In response to the quality of the last three books:

Spoiler

Eh, if The Crippled God would have been an endless convergence with every single character we've ever met I'd be a bit disappointed. It would have felt like cramming, and it would have felt forced. It would have felt like comic book fiction, like pulp fantasy. If I want ridiculous, completely nonsensical stuff that's flashy just for the sake of flashiness, I'll go delve into the incomprehensible, juvenile Warcraft lore. Sure, I was surprised by the lack of a few things, but with both time and listening to a few interviews any real complaints I had were gone. Erikson has stated that the series itself is a form of metafiction, in which the reader takes the hero's journey. I think that, if Erikson had ended his series in utter bleakness, it would have undermined all of the themes that kept cropping up time and time again throughout the series. Erikson has stated time and time again that his writing is as far from nihilistic as possible, and yet it seems many people want it to be nihilistic, just for the sake of endless tragedy ("Oh man, Erikson ended a 10 book series by killing pretty much everyone and the world not getting saved? Man, that guy has huge balls! Too bad he threw everything else he was trying to accomplish while writing the series out the window to achieve this!"). In my mind, at least, tragedy just for the sake of tragedy is stupid and pointless.

Toll the Hounds is a gem for me insofar as it's Erikson's meta fiction commentary on a micro level (the book being the cypher to the series, aka the hero's journey is taken in full in that book). Sure, it didn't follow the typical storytelling procedure which was a bit off putting the first time I read it, but hey, reading would get very boring if all storytellers followed the exact same model. Personally, and maybe I'm in the minority, I love traveling, character dialogue, and character reflection and growth. Sure, the convergences are fucking amazing, but - for me, at least - their amazingness derives from the fact that everything else is just so great.

As for Dust of Dreams, well, I have to agree with you here. It's the weakest book in the series for me. There are lots of great parts, but overall things didn't quite interest me as much as in all the other books. Still leagues better than almost anything else out there, though.

[worry]

Spoiler

I suppose "a bajillion" can be construed by some as hyperbole. Nevertheless! Nothing about TTH dissatisfied me, and I kind of loved every minute of it. The finale doesn't come out of left field...it comes as a shock, but it's well-prepped. The Dying God/Redeemer arc wasn't about oil, it was a culmination of the series-long theme of what gods and worshipers owe each other, and how either side might manipulate or downright fail the other (as was the matter with Hood, Rake/MD, Draconus, the TA kids). Also I enjoyed the Crokus storyline...it weaved well with the broader Phoenix Inn storyline, jarring in how discordant it was in comparison to the GotM stuff, how he just didn't fit anymore after all the gods had put him through, but contrasted with the dissatisfied in a wholly secular way Challice...it really came to a nice head in defining personal agency for Crokus, a refusal to just let things go where fate takes him. Which of course brings to fulfillment Crokus's place as the anti-farmboy-with-a-destiny. Paran of course is left to the later books, as the other side of the coin, kid with big romantic dreams of glory.

DoD had me on the edge of my seat the whole way through, I thought the Snake were an awesome, heartbreaking addition, and I loved the periods of downtime we got to spend with soldiers. It really underlined that old quote of soldiering/war being "long periods of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror." And I thought the finale did a nice job of deflating the expectations of Convergence with chance (which has also been a factor the whole series), and the KCNR were just about as foreboding an enemy as I've ever read.

With TCG, I didn't really want any of the things you described (except more specific action during the dragon fights), so personal taste is of course at the forefront. But I was only dissatisfied by a couple things: we didn't learn much about Icarias at the start....and I agree with you (to an extant) about how Olar Ethil got taken out. I would have also liked to see some mention of Gethol in a post-Hood world, and an acknowledgement of the Mhybe by someone/anyone connected to the Wolves or the Beast Hold. Otherwise, everything about this book was wonderful. The trek through the desert was a sad, pitiful, ignoble mirror image of the Chain of Dogs, and besides the awesome threat-from-within stuff from people pushed past their limits, there was the nearly unbearable tension of whether they would reach the Snake and what they could do once they did. The Karsa/Calm thing was never a true prophecy, it was her vague sense of his destiny and mere braggadocio on her part...but it was punctuated nicely by her mistaking Ublala for Karsa anyway. We know what Iccy can do, we learned why he can do it, and frankly I consider it a blessing that he wasn't fully unleashed in this finale.

[Anomander irake]

i loved the book. i think ICE does a good job and orb sceptre throne was one of his best in my book:)

[Sinisdar Toste]

i'm sorry apt, but some of what you say you wanted from tCG just seems completely ridiculous and most of the rest of it actually happened.

Spoiler

Gods fighting jade statues? the fuck? millions upon millions of souls trapped in fiery comets do not 'fight', they come down to your puny planet and ruin it's entire deal. what god is gonna put themselves in the path of that? and frankly, having the entire thing be one battle after another would not have worked in the slightest. even so it almost was. the shore turned into a goddamned meat grinder.

i have no idea who this half-assed menagerie you refer to is. we've got some of the most badass armies on the planet (the host - commanded by the master of the deck and including high mage quick "who the fuck is this guy" ben, as well as kalam "kills claws for fun" mekhar, who defeat three separate armies, once using artillery; the bonehunters - so hard that when they're told they're marching across a glass desert right after being mauled and then eaten by short-tails, they just get the fuck on with it and spit on anyone who thinks it's crazy; the last k'chain on the planet are there with reptilian tanks; against them there are over one-hundred thousand mindless killing-machines), and gods banging around fucking everywhere:

-hoods on a one jaghut rampage
-olar ethil is aiming for the heart
-togg and fanderay are possessing their destriant and are ready to burst through and go wild on everybody
-fener appears in the sky and rains blood over the entire area
-d'rek is under everyones nose
-k'rul, mael, and shadowthrone are playing the background like the geniuses they are
-cotillion steps out of shadows at the exact right moment to kill the crippled god
-badalle summons the remnants of the forkrul assail god
-brys literally VOMITS GODS

when you say things like "never got that pantheon war", i shake my head. it's just a daft statement. what in gods name has been happening since the first book? gods and deities dying off and being replaced, new ascendants vying for godhood, new gods consolidating their power, mortals killing gods, gods killing mortals, gods going with the nuclear option, gods fighting over scraps of power and meddling whenever they feel they can. i can name specific examples right now: poliel sides with the crippled god and ganoes kills her. the beast gods, togg and fanderay come to prominence then one gets stabbed in the heart by its chosen servant. the crippled god raises an empire that attacks k'rul's warrens, which the young gods derive their power from.

i'm also pretty sure there were mounds of corpses and insane things happening in the sky. you know, gods blood raining from a gigantic boar, the strangers getting closer with every second, and thousands of dragons doing battle against one enormous dragon (and i'm so sorry that skykeeps fighting dragonkeeps wasn't cool enough for you in DoD). i wouldn't consider korabas a god, but she could have killed every single one of the gods if not for heboric and tCG chaining her anew. With Korabas unleashed, t'iam manifesting, the jade statues falling and the FA about to open the gates to Akhrast Korvalain, that's four mass-extinction level events that are staved off in the space of a few days. there's a battle where jaghut and imass fight side by side with toblakai, k'chain che'malle and the ascended guardians of the dead. each and every FA that was taken down was done in by exceptional feats of bravery and/or skill, and/or getting their faces rearranged by hood.

the errant and killy weren't directly involved yes, but they were never intending to be anywhere near where the shit was going down. they were dickheads anyway and i didn't find it strange that killy was terrified of draconus, or that the errant scurried off to hide from him. in fact, there's the answer to my earlier question, what god is gonna stand in the way of the jade statues? draconus would. he did in fact, but he's only one guy and that one wasn't falling at high velocity. but that's how badass he is. killy and the errant knew it, that's why they're shit scared and running.

karsa v calm? more satisfying to see karsa kill fener and the scenes leading up to that. icarium being saved from his rage by mappo/pung and then remembering something for the first time since his accident? far more moving than just having him go crazy and kill a bunch of stuff.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 19 June 2012 - 04:26 AM

[D'rek]

Sinisdar Toste, on 19 June 2012 - 04:15 AM, said:

i'm sorry apt, but some of what you say you wanted from tCG just seems completely ridiculous and most of the rest of it actually happened.

Spoiler

Gods fighting jade statues? the fuck? millions upon millions of souls trapped in fiery comets do not 'fight', they come down to your puny planet and ruin it's entire deal. what god is gonna put themselves in the path of that? and frankly, having the entire thing be one battle after another would not have worked in the slightest. even so it almost was. the shore turned into a goddamned meat grinder.

i have no idea who this half-assed menagerie you refer to is. we've got some of the most badass armies on the planet (the host - commanded by the master of the deck and including high mage quick "who the fuck is this guy" ben, as well as kalam "kills claws for fun" mekhar, who defeat three separate armies, once using artillery; the bonehunters - so hard that when they're told they're marching across a glass desert right after being mauled and then eaten by short-tails, they just get the fuck on with it and spit on anyone who thinks it's crazy; the last k'chain on the planet are there with reptilian tanks; against them there are over one-hundred thousand mindless killing-machines), and gods banging around fucking everywhere:

-hoods on a one jaghut rampage
-olar ethil is aiming for the heart
-togg and fanderay are possessing their destriant and are ready to burst through and go wild on everybody
-fener appears in the sky and rains blood over the entire area
-d'rek is under everyones nose
-k'rul, mael, and shadowthrone are playing the background like the geniuses they are
-cotillion steps out of shadows at the exact right moment to kill the crippled god
-badalle summons the remnants of the forkrul assail god
-brys literally VOMITS GODS

when you say things like "never got that pantheon war", i shake my head. it's just a daft statement. what in gods name has been happening since the first book? gods and deities dying off and being replaced, new ascendants vying for godhood, new gods consolidating their power, mortals killing gods, gods killing mortals, gods going with the nuclear option, gods fighting over scraps of power and meddling whenever they feel they can. i can name specific examples right now: poliel sides with the crippled god and ganoes kills her. the beast gods, togg and fanderay come to prominence then one gets stabbed in the heart by its chosen servant. the crippled god raises an empire that attacks k'rul's warrens, which the young gods derive their power from.

i'm also pretty sure there were mounds of corpses and insane things happening in the sky. you know, gods blood raining from a gigantic boar, the strangers getting closer with every second, and thousands of dragons doing battle against one enormous dragon (and i'm so sorry that skykeeps fighting dragonkeeps wasn't cool enough for you in DoD). i wouldn't consider korabas a god, but she could have killed every single one of the gods if not for heboric and tCG chaining her anew. With Korabas unleashed, t'iam manifesting, the jade statues falling and the FA about to open the gates to Akhrast Korvalain, that's four mass-extinction level events that are staved off in the space of a few days. there's a battle where jaghut and imass fight side by side with toblakai, k'chain che'malle and the ascended guardians of the dead. each and every FA that was taken down was done in by exceptional feats of bravery and/or skill, and/or getting their faces rearranged by hood.

the errant and killy weren't directly involved yes, but they were never intending to be anywhere near where the shit was going down. they were dickheads anyway and i didn't find it strange that killy was terrified of draconus, or that the errant scurried off to hide from him. in fact, there's the answer to my earlier question, what god is gonna stand in the way of the jade statues? draconus would. he did in fact, but he's only one guy and that one wasn't falling at high velocity. but that's how badass he is. killy and the errant knew it, that's why they're shit scared and running.

karsa v calm? more satisfying to see karsa kill fener and the scenes leading up to that. icarium being saved from his rage by mappo/pung and then remembering something for the first time since his accident? far more moving than just having him go crazy and kill a bunch of stuff.

I agree and I disagree.

(and why are we spoilering everything? This is the OST forum...)

All of those things are good, and I don't really find that TCG was lacking in intense moments of conflict. However, because there are a whole bunch of "over-9000" moments all throughout the series and many in TCG, I think TCG could have benefitted from a big "over-9001!" moment - a final threat that comes only at the very end and threatens to ruin everything. I think SE was going for this with T'iam manifesting, but it didn't really work out all that well because {a} we have no idea what the heck is going on with T'iam at this point - she's a bunch of dragons making a dragon? Too suddenly confusing and not enough destructive hype throughout the series to be all that scary, and {b} the T'iam problem was solved by going through with all the "good guys" original plans, rather than forcing them to suddenly change plans at the last minute.

I'm sure there's lots of possible "over-9001" moments that could have been used, but how would I have done it (in hindsight, I know)? Have Calm be the last FA alive, and she can sense that all the other FA have been killed. She goes to Icarium and, despairing of accomplishing the FA's goal and wanting to just "deliver peace" to all who opposed them, deliberately unleashes Icarium - maybe using herself and/or her ancestor bones to superpower him somehow too, why not. Lifestealer goes batshit, the keening is heard from miles away, and starts moving (really fast I guess) towards the various armies and forces, slaughtering the crap out of them. Armies/groups try to run or try to fight him, and get slaughtered either way. Mappo catches up, but Lifestealer doesn't hurt him due to unconscious memories, just moves around him for more slaughter, so Mappo deliberately throws himself on Icarium's sword or something like that, and in doing so (or because of it because it suddenly makes him so sad) Icarium snaps out of it and falls unconscious, to be found later by Ublala (and then you can still have the sad Iccy-dead-Mappo-can't-remember scene).

The benefits to something like that are that the "over-9001" threat is unexpected, and delivers or threatens to deliver a lot of damage to the characters we are really invested in (unlike Tiam who threatens Korabas - yeah, I'm sure Tiam would threaten everyone else after, but initially she's just setup against Korabas), but at the same time it is a familiar source so it doesnt seem to come out of left field. It would provide a nice emotional finish to the Iccy-Mappo storyline, beyond just Calm-kills-Mappo-Ublala-kills-Calm happening over a couple pages. And also, it's a threat set in motion by the FA, which I think would've made the FA threat a lot more serious for those who found the FA to be pushovers.

So yeah, lotsa great Ascendant battles and pantheonic replacments throughout TCG and the series as a whole, but a great big unexpected "holy shit, screw the plan, we're all gonna die" plot point threatening our dearest characters at the very end would've been an improvement to the cherry that was already on top.

[Abyss]

Also, SE does make a habit of not going for the obvious play.

[worry]

So you're saying you wish Iskaral Pust had unleashed his might.

[D'rek]

Abyss, on 19 June 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

Also, SE does make a habit of not going for the obvious play.

Which itself eventually becomes obvious.