Malazan Empire: OST is a stupid and boring book. - Malazan Empire

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OST is a stupid and boring book. There, I said it.

#161 User is offline   T'lan Imass 

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:39 AM

Apt has a lot of good points! This book could have been much, much, much better! More info about the Tyrant and his previous efforts to take control, more info about the Moranth civilisation (through Torvald''s eyes), more info about Moon's Spawn (interior, decoration, purpose of rooms etc), more badassery wakling around and smashing peoples' heads, less pages about Kiska's (futile to me) attempts/efforts to find Tayschrenn.

BUT (aye, a but exists everywhere) that doesn't mean it wasn't awesome. In my opinion, it is a fine continuation of the series. It clearly wasn't in the same wavelength as the MBotF (and Erikson could probably have done it better) but I believe that Orb Sceptre Throne delivered to the fans. A plethora of precious moments-->Moranth VS Seguleh (come on now, that was some good shit), Spindle trying for pages and pages to find a solution to break the foundation stones, only for Brood to pass by and slap the stone into submission, Topper just existing in the pages (we love that bastard, right?), seeing factions known to us through different POVs (Yusek and Bendan, who weren't exactly good guys), Kruppe once again be awesome and...well, slippery, Humble Measure becoming an agent of Kruppe and many other things.

I agree, the final convergence could've been more brutal, but haven't we seen enough brutal convergences so far? I loved the book not for its general stories and plotlines but for the small parts which have made the Malazan world one we love and adore.

Sidenote-->Regarding the Tyrant's demise by Leff and Scorch. Wasn't it the mask that was supposed to be immortal and not the body? I mean, our two guards killed not the Tyrant, but the Lim Legate. The Tyrant continued to live in the mask and inside Ebbin's head. The whole scene was orchestrated by Kruppe in order for him (or Topper, or Rallick) to take the mask away from everyone. Taya and the Second were, after that, ordered to wear the mask but didn't accept. By that, I think the Tyrant was frigthening enough. The idea of tyranny which cannnot die (as long as people exist to occupy a throne) and all that.

All in all (and that's my personal opinion again), Ian Esslemont is a very good writer who succeded in portraying many of Erikson's characters well (Kruppe, Envy's dismissal of Thurule, Studious Lock) and managed to produce a host of all these things that make us crazy for the Malazan world (Raest and the T'lan playing cards, Antsy speaking with Ferret and Mallet etc). Certainly, it hadn't the ending which MoI or RG threw at us, but then again, it wasn't meant to be one of those books.

Stopping my babbling now.
P.S.-->Was it only me who wanted Taya to be sliced in many small and tiny pieces by Topper?
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#162 User is offline   The Seguleh 46th 

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 03:24 AM

View PostThe Seguleh 46th, on 03 September 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

Everything has pretty much already been covered in this thread on why this book felt underwhelming to me, so won't go into any more detail than has already been described. There were moments, yes, but ultimately, it felt as though nothing happened at all. A big baddy that Baruk had told Anomander (in GotM perhaps?) that even with his help, they may not stand much of a chance, really turned out to be a true dud. I liked the menacing promise that he had when walking out the tomb and into Darujhistan, but that's where it ended. And why was Taya even in this group of obediant servants, what was her motivation, other than some unknown and unexplained adolescent rebeliion against her mother? Where was Kallor? Karsa and the killing of Fener (figured that would tie in somehow, as the killing of a God would seem to be a pretty significant event IMO!)? Dassem becoming First was predictable from the start. Ditto for Scorch and Leff "saving" the day. A wee bit too much Deus Ex Machina, ala Moranth swooping in with the aerial assualt, Tay saving the BBs in K'ruls', Brood showing up and doing, well, something, etc. No tragedy, no true impending sense of doom, or any true "Aha!" moments. I liked it enough for what it was, true, but also the same overall feeling i get when watching a second-rate action film. Good enough, but ultimately a one-time read. I really like ICE, and after his amazing/tremendous/electric (pick your description!) offering of Stonewielder, i was utterly salivating for this book to come out and be devoured by myself. Maybe it was the weight of writing a book that featured mostly characters from the SE side of things that brought it to this? Not sure. I'm just hoping when ICE gets back to his own personal side of the story, it will pick back up again, 1000%! Hopefully.



Above is what I said then. Recently reread all of ICE's books to lead up to my current read of Blood and Bone. Have to say, while some of the criticisms remain, I did enjoy it a lot more the second time through. Something I cannot even really pinpoint or explain, it just simply seemed much better on the reread. The DEMs of course remain the obvious points of nuance, but in retrospect, I almost feel the need to let it lie to the wayside with ICE, as it occurred to me that every single Darujhistan-themed volume has been heavily infused via DEM. Gardens of the Moon and Toll the Hounds both had their own forms of DEM, via the Finnest House/crazy shit happening, and Dassem/Rake fight, Death's death, Dragnipur, Seguleh 2nd, Karsa, Crokus, etc. all doing a whole bunch of "save the city from imminent doom!" at the end. Also came to the conclusion that Taya is Vorcan and whatever-human-happened-to-be-wearing-the-Tyrant's mask-at-whatever-point-In- time's daughter. So that is why she has sided with daddy. To go along with the typical adolescent rebellion Mommy issues. Or not. I could be utterly and completely wrong for all I know. So, while it was still his least favorite work to date for me personally, I felt I perhaps judged a bit too harsh in my 1st post.



Speaking of Blood and Bone, i'm really enjoying it thus far. Only 130 pages in, and nothing earth-shattering has really happened, but digging the fact that I almost feel like i'm hovering along for the ride with each character's separate journey!

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 05 June 2013 - 12:01 PM

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#163 User is offline   Spoilsport Stonny 

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 02:17 PM

View PostThe Seguleh 46th, on 05 June 2013 - 03:24 AM, said:

View PostThe Seguleh 46th, on 03 September 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

Everything has pretty much already been covered in this thread on why this book felt underwhelming to me, so won't go into any more detail than has already been described. There were moments, yes, but ultimately, it felt as though nothing happened at all. A big baddy that Baruk had told Anomander (in GotM perhaps?) that even with his help, they may not stand much of a chance, really turned out to be a true dud. I liked the menacing promise that he had when walking out the tomb and into Darujhistan, but that's where it ended. And why was Taya even in this group of obediant servants, what was her motivation, other than some unknown and unexplained adolescent rebeliion against her mother? Where was Kallor? Karsa and the killing of Fener (figured that would tie in somehow, as the killing of a God would seem to be a pretty significant event IMO!)? Dassem becoming First was predictable from the start. Ditto for Scorch and Leff "saving" the day. A wee bit too much Deus Ex Machina, ala Moranth swooping in with the aerial assualt, Tay saving the BBs in K'ruls', Brood showing up and doing, well, something, etc. No tragedy, no true impending sense of doom, or any true "Aha!" moments. I liked it enough for what it was, true, but also the same overall feeling i get when watching a second-rate action film. Good enough, but ultimately a one-time read. I really like ICE, and after his amazing/tremendous/electric (pick your description!) offering of Stonewielder, i was utterly salivating for this book to come out and be devoured by myself. Maybe it was the weight of writing a book that featured mostly characters from the SE side of things that brought it to this? Not sure. I'm just hoping when ICE gets back to his own personal side of the story, it will pick back up again, 1000%! Hopefully.



Above is what I said then. Recently reread all of ICE's books to lead up to my current read of Blood and Bone. Have to say, while some of the criticisms remain, I did enjoy it a lot more the second time through. Something I cannot even really pinpoint or explain, it just simply seemed much better on the reread. The DEMs of course remain the obvious points of nuance, but in retrospect, I almost feel the need to let it lie to the wayside with ICE, as it occurred to me that every single Darujhistan-themed volume has been heavily infused via DEM. Gardens of the Moon and Toll the Hounds both had their own forms of DEM, via the Finnest House/crazy shit happening, and Dassem/Rake fight, Death's death, Dragnipur, Seguleh 2nd, Karsa, Crokus, etc. all doing a whole bunch of "save the city from imminent doom!" at the end. Also came to the conclusion that Taya is Vorcan and whatever-human-happened-to-be-wearing-the-Tyrant's mask-at-whatever-point-In- time's daughter. So that is why she has sided with daddy. To go along with the typical adolescent rebellion Mommy issues. Or not. I could be utterly and completely wrong for all I know. So, while it was still his least favorite work to date for me personally, I felt I perhaps judged a bit too harsh in my 1st post.



Awesome theory re: Vorcan's baby-daddy, but I don't think anything you mentioned are in actuality DEMs. The finnest/Azath can be explained upon further reading. Seguleh 2nd/Crokus and the spear are a converging plotline from a previous book. Death's death was prepared for, and was hinted at in the prologue for TtH. Karsa accompanied Dassem from Kindaru lands to Darujistan, and Dassem was being herded to Darujhistan by ST & Cots. "Saving the City" makes sense as the story of TtH is a love letter from Kruppe to the Blue City he loves so dear - indeed he may be tied to more closely than just residing there - and the memories of friendships formed in that city, namely Murillio.

It's a novel about death, so its no surprise that Death dies.
Theorizing that one could poop within his own lifetime, Doctor Poopet led an elite group of scientists into the desert to develop a top secret project, known as QUANTUM POOP. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Doctor Poopet, prematurely stepped into the Poop Accelerator and vanished. He awoke to find himself in the past, suffering from partial amnesia and facing a mirror image that was not his own. Fortunately, contact with his own bowels was made through brainwave transmissions, with Al the Poop Observer, who appeared in the form of a hologram that only Doctor Poopet could see and hear. Trapped in the past, Doctor Poopet finds himself pooping from life to life, pooping things right, that once went wrong and hoping each time, that his next poop will be the poop home.
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#164 User is offline   The Seguleh 46th 

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:47 PM

View PostSpoilsport Stonny, on 05 June 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

View PostThe Seguleh 46th, on 05 June 2013 - 03:24 AM, said:

View PostThe Seguleh 46th, on 03 September 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

Everything has pretty much already been covered in this thread on why this book felt underwhelming to me, so won't go into any more detail than has already been described. There were moments, yes, but ultimately, it felt as though nothing happened at all. A big baddy that Baruk had told Anomander (in GotM perhaps?) that even with his help, they may not stand much of a chance, really turned out to be a true dud. I liked the menacing promise that he had when walking out the tomb and into Darujhistan, but that's where it ended. And why was Taya even in this group of obediant servants, what was her motivation, other than some unknown and unexplained adolescent rebeliion against her mother? Where was Kallor? Karsa and the killing of Fener (figured that would tie in somehow, as the killing of a God would seem to be a pretty significant event IMO!)? Dassem becoming First was predictable from the start. Ditto for Scorch and Leff "saving" the day. A wee bit too much Deus Ex Machina, ala Moranth swooping in with the aerial assualt, Tay saving the BBs in K'ruls', Brood showing up and doing, well, something, etc. No tragedy, no true impending sense of doom, or any true "Aha!" moments. I liked it enough for what it was, true, but also the same overall feeling i get when watching a second-rate action film. Good enough, but ultimately a one-time read. I really like ICE, and after his amazing/tremendous/electric (pick your description!) offering of Stonewielder, i was utterly salivating for this book to come out and be devoured by myself. Maybe it was the weight of writing a book that featured mostly characters from the SE side of things that brought it to this? Not sure. I'm just hoping when ICE gets back to his own personal side of the story, it will pick back up again, 1000%! Hopefully.



Above is what I said then. Recently reread all of ICE's books to lead up to my current read of Blood and Bone. Have to say, while some of the criticisms remain, I did enjoy it a lot more the second time through. Something I cannot even really pinpoint or explain, it just simply seemed much better on the reread. The DEMs of course remain the obvious points of nuance, but in retrospect, I almost feel the need to let it lie to the wayside with ICE, as it occurred to me that every single Darujhistan-themed volume has been heavily infused via DEM. Gardens of the Moon and Toll the Hounds both had their own forms of DEM, via the Finnest House/crazy shit happening, and Dassem/Rake fight, Death's death, Dragnipur, Seguleh 2nd, Karsa, Crokus, etc. all doing a whole bunch of "save the city from imminent doom!" at the end. Also came to the conclusion that Taya is Vorcan and whatever-human-happened-to-be-wearing-the-Tyrant's mask-at-whatever-point-In- time's daughter. So that is why she has sided with daddy. To go along with the typical adolescent rebellion Mommy issues. Or not. I could be utterly and completely wrong for all I know. So, while it was still his least favorite work to date for me personally, I felt I perhaps judged a bit too harsh in my 1st post.



Awesome theory re: Vorcan's baby-daddy, but I don't think anything you mentioned are in actuality DEMs. The finnest/Azath can be explained upon further reading. Seguleh 2nd/Crokus and the spear are a converging plotline from a previous book. Death's death was prepared for, and was hinted at in the prologue for TtH. Karsa accompanied Dassem from Kindaru lands to Darujistan, and Dassem was being herded to Darujhistan by ST & Cots. "Saving the City" makes sense as the story of TtH is a love letter from Kruppe to the Blue City he loves so dear - indeed he may be tied to more closely than just residing there - and the memories of friendships formed in that city, namely Murillio.

It's a novel about death, so its no surprise that Death dies.





I thought about that right after I posted it, and you are right, they aren't really DEMs for the most part. I was mostly trying to find a way to back off more gracefully off my previous criticisms.
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#165 User is offline   Anicetus 

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 12:01 AM

Every book ICE wrote except NoK was IMO the worst thing to happen to the Malazan series since... I dunno it was the worst.

He tried to dupicate Erikson without the level of detail and character development and so I was also left feeling let down. I was bored as well.

Having said that I don't know why your post starts with complaints against Erikson (I am biased I heart him). The Malazan BOTF series is epic, well written and tells awesome stories (maybe cause it isn't one story but that is it's charm).

Wait till you read the next book!!!!
There is something you canít give up. There is something you want to protect. There is a time you must take a stand no matter what kind of pain awaits us. The man clad in the red coat took up his gun once again, in order to stop the sadness, in order to stop the hate. I keep the word of the red geranium which I was taught so long ago. I keep the courage and determination, deep in my heart.
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#166 User is offline   Meese 

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 08:39 PM

The original premise was that neither SE nor ICE could telly a story. Well Maybe Apt I agree with only half or what you say - although I love the anger and bloody minded way in which you do it. SE can write. Oh boy. He can write, he can tell a story and he can constantly astonish us. ICE can't. Simples.

Sorry to say it, but its true - the two are not comparable and ICE is only published because he clings to the coat tails of SE. We all know it and it has become so obvious to me in the last year.

Awaiting the Forge of Light, Republic of Thieves, Aspect Emperor 3, Patrick Ruthuss's third part of the Kingkiller series, I was stuck and ventured off to The Final Empire - Brandon Sanders, The Beatings of his Wings - Paul Hoffman, the Demon Cycle - Peter Brent, - not bad - The Blinding Knife - Brent Weeks and at a lost last week I picked up my kindle and reread Forge of Darkness ---- phew - I was back in Joseph Conrad territory and the sense of relief was truly palpable.

Republic of Thieves was very disappointing - especially after such a long wait. But Forge of Darkness is complex intelligent crisp clear and a complete delight. OST IS AN INSULT.

SIMPLES
Now, ain't that just fine.
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#167 User is online   Aptorian 

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 09:05 PM

The thing is I actually do think ICE is a good writer. There's nothing wrong with the prose or the narrative itself. It's looks and feels like a Malazan story. It just doesn't hold Water as the story grows and it sort of collapses on itself by the time we get to the end.

I really liked Night of Knives. I wonder if Esslemont might now do a lot better if he either wrote something half the length with half the amount of storylines and characters or alternatively if there was a two or three year gap between each books, giving him time to refine and polish the story.

This post has been edited by Maybe Apt: 16 January 2014 - 09:06 PM

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#168 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 10:17 PM

View PostMeese, on 16 January 2014 - 08:39 PM, said:

The original premise was that neither SE nor ICE could telly a story. Well Maybe Apt I agree with only half or what you say - although I love the anger and bloody minded way in which you do it. SE can write. Oh boy. He can write, he can tell a story and he can constantly astonish us. ICE can't. Simples.

Sorry to say it, but its true - the two are not comparable and ICE is only published because he clings to the coat tails of SE. We all know it and it has become so obvious to me in the last year.

Awaiting the Forge of Light, Republic of Thieves, Aspect Emperor 3, Patrick Ruthuss's third part of the Kingkiller series, I was stuck and ventured off to The Final Empire - Brandon Sanders, The Beatings of his Wings - Paul Hoffman, the Demon Cycle - Peter Brent, - not bad - The Blinding Knife - Brent Weeks and at a lost last week I picked up my kindle and reread Forge of Darkness ---- phew - I was back in Joseph Conrad territory and the sense of relief was truly palpable.

Republic of Thieves was very disappointing - especially after such a long wait. But Forge of Darkness is complex intelligent crisp clear and a complete delight. OST IS AN INSULT.

SIMPLES


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#169 User is offline   nonamebutvaguelydescribedclothes 

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 01:39 PM

I just finished it and mainly agree with the overall opinion in this thread although i really enjoyed reading this book up to the last 150 pages.....

I think ICE really improved his writing since I hated ROTCG and liked OST more than SW, but in the end it just lacks genuine ideas and plots.... like a lot of you described it, the ressurrection of the tyrant was pretty scary and promised a great villain, but then it just ended!? suddenly there was a curfew without a reason and it seemed like ICE just wanted the tyrant to do anything and couldn't think of any other tyrannical action Posted Image

caladan brood was a real disappointment... he is also a disappointment in MBOTF, because he just doesn't do anything, but here his storyline suggests a major role in the convergent with badass moves like hood in TCG, and all he does is crushing a stone.....


In the end I really thought, that the whole tyrant resurrection had been arranged by Mallick Rel (through taya) to end the non aggression pact, annihilate the seguleh as darujhistans army, weaken the moranth to keep them close, finally send a large force through this magnificent sceptre (why add sth. like this and never use it???) and "liberate", pacify and annex the city....
this wouldn't have been an incredibly brilliant plot, but with good writing, some maybes (maybe mallick planned this all along, maybe he just reacted to the circumstances, maybe he struck a deal with oponn, to push&pull things in a way - nobody knows it for sure, we just can speculate ;)) and some ascendants realizing, that they maybe have been used by a human emperor could have been a nicer story than this.......

sorry for grammar etc. mistakes, I am from Germany Posted Image
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#170 User is offline   nacht 

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 04:27 AM

View Postnonamebutvaguelydescribedclothes, on 22 February 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

I just finished it and mainly agree with the overall opinion in this thread although i really enjoyed reading this book up to the last 150 pages.....

I think ICE really improved his writing since I hated ROTCG and liked OST more than SW, but in the end it just lacks genuine ideas and plots.... like a lot of you described it, the ressurrection of the tyrant was pretty scary and promised a great villain, but then it just ended!? suddenly there was a curfew without a reason and it seemed like ICE just wanted the tyrant to do anything and couldn't think of any other tyrannical action :p

caladan brood was a real disappointment... he is also a disappointment in MBOTF, because he just doesn't do anything, but here his storyline suggests a major role in the convergent with badass moves like hood in TCG, and all he does is crushing a stone.....


In the end I really thought, that the whole tyrant resurrection had been arranged by Mallick Rel (through taya) to end the non aggression pact, annihilate the seguleh as darujhistans army, weaken the moranth to keep them close, finally send a large force through this magnificent sceptre (why add sth. like this and never use it???) and "liberate", pacify and annex the city....
this wouldn't have been an incredibly brilliant plot, but with good writing, some maybes (maybe mallick planned this all along, maybe he just reacted to the circumstances, maybe he struck a deal with oponn, to push&pull things in a way - nobody knows it for sure, we just can speculate :p) and some ascendants realizing, that they maybe have been used by a human emperor could have been a nicer story than this.......

sorry for grammar etc. mistakes, I am from Germany Posted Image


You are more devious than Mallick ;).. That is quite an achievement.
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