[Abyss]

D, on 19 June 2012 - 07:50 PM, said:

Abyss, on 19 June 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

Also, SE does make a habit of not going for the obvious play.

Which itself eventually becomes obvious.

But which in turn is subverted by SE in fact doing the obvious thing and not falling back on the obvious.

Obviously.

[Sinisdar Toste]

to be honest i go back and forth on icarium. if he was truly unleashed, with calm and her bones controlling him, she could have thrown off the korabas/t'iam balance and just caused everything to go to fiery chaotic hell. sometimes i think it would have been cool, but then i remember that it would mean ublala pung would have gone all that way to die accomplishing nothing. that would be a terrible fate for that beautiful idiot, and now him and icarium can show up in the toblakai trilogy.

[iron chef iskaral]

I only read the first page. I agree with some of the things the OP said, but have a few issues;

I don't think it's really fair to call Scorch and Leff killing the Legate dues ex machina. How much time was spent building up to that moment? Them going from job to job, always in the center of the action (unknowingly). Rallick finding the missing Dragnipur (with crumbs), Barathol and Humble forging the bolts, Ebbin bouncing in and out of sanity (the only thing that kept the two guards there), and, of course, all of Kruppe's doings (though idk what the Witch scenes had to do with anything). A large amount of text and storylines lead up to this moment, and while it was completely random and sort of nonsensical (personally I thought it was great and loved the scene), isn't that just the way that Kruppe would have a hand in things? We know he has supernatural intellect, and I'm currently also re-reading GotM, and just went over a passage that says, basically, he doesn't need a deck of dragons because he can divine all that shit in his own head. I think we'd all agree that Kruppe would play a large role in any "convergence". Forseeing and influencing events in a subtle way like this is how I see Kruppe acting. It's not like he could walk up to the legate and blast em with power like Tay or some of the other ascendants.

Seems to me like most of the other finales / convergences do end in crazy escalations of raw power (be it martial or magical), and that this one was really almost anti-climatic because of the way the antagonists are taken out with Kruppe's behind the scene scheming rather than Brood tearing their heads off or something. Often powerhouses do get taken down by random small time folks, but it seems like the crux of the stories usually lie in confrontations of immense power, so idk about your rule #5.

While I do agree he fumbled quite a bit in the execution, especially in the fleshing out and follow through of the badass evil mage guys, I really thought in terms of a story, this was one of the more well put together Malazan books. My biggest gripe with the story is that Spindles / Duikers / Fishers / Broods efforts in bringing down the wall amounted to, as you so eloquently put it, "fuck all". So the second half of the book for Spindle was pretty pointless. And like I said earlier I thought it was sort of anti-climatic. Future ICE books might lend this climax some weight if T'ren and the new First have large roles in his later stories. And while I think Traveller's story was kinda predictable, did you really forsee Tayschreen becoming a god? That seemed out of left field to me lol.

Also, where was Iskaral Pust?!?!? IMO ICE is afraid to write him ><

I like your post though, it's well written and made me laugh. I just personally think your arguments would work better on some of the other books.

[worry]

How can you have such thorough knowledge after reading only the first page?!?!?!?!?!?!

[End of Disc One]

iron chef iskaral, on 16 August 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

I only read the first page. I agree with some of the things the OP said, but have a few issues;

I don't think it's really fair to call Scorch and Leff killing the Legate dues ex machina. How much time was spent building up to that moment? Them going from job to job, always in the center of the action (unknowingly). Rallick finding the missing Dragnipur (with crumbs), Barathol and Humble forging the bolts, Ebbin bouncing in and out of sanity (the only thing that kept the two guards there), and, of course, all of Kruppe's doings (though idk what the Witch scenes had to do with anything). A large amount of text and storylines lead up to this moment, and while it was completely random and sort of nonsensical (personally I thought it was great and loved the scene), isn't that just the way that Kruppe would have a hand in things? We know he has supernatural intellect, and I'm currently also re-reading GotM, and just went over a passage that says, basically, he doesn't need a deck of dragons because he can divine all that shit in his own head. I think we'd all agree that Kruppe would play a large role in any "convergence". Forseeing and influencing events in a subtle way like this is how I see Kruppe acting. It's not like he could walk up to the legate and blast em with power like Tay or some of the other ascendants.

Seems to me like most of the other finales / convergences do end in crazy escalations of raw power (be it martial or magical), and that this one was really almost anti-climatic because of the way the antagonists are taken out with Kruppe's behind the scene scheming rather than Brood tearing their heads off or something. Often powerhouses do get taken down by random small time folks, but it seems like the crux of the stories usually lie in confrontations of immense power, so idk about your rule #5.

While I do agree he fumbled quite a bit in the execution, especially in the fleshing out and follow through of the badass evil mage guys, I really thought in terms of a story, this was one of the more well put together Malazan books. My biggest gripe with the story is that Spindles / Duikers / Fishers / Broods efforts in bringing down the wall amounted to, as you so eloquently put it, "fuck all". So the second half of the book for Spindle was pretty pointless. And like I said earlier I thought it was sort of anti-climatic. Future ICE books might lend this climax some weight if T'ren and the new First have large roles in his later stories. And while I think Traveller's story was kinda predictable, did you really forsee Tayschreen becoming a god? That seemed out of left field to me lol.

Also, where was Iskaral Pust?!?!? IMO ICE is afraid to write him ><

I like your post though, it's well written and made me laugh. I just personally think your arguments would work better on some of the other books.

I only read the first sentence of this post but I disagree with most of what you said.

[iron chef iskaral]

i meant first page of this post! just in case i said something someone else had pointed out, ya know

[Kurtz]

I am sad to admit that OST failed. It is not a bad book, it has its moments, I like ICE's writing style in this one, but definitely it does not accomplish what I expected.
The problem is this, too many expectations. I don't think I was the only one, since everything was there after TtH: powerful people in Darujhistan (Dassem, Karsa, Caladan Brood, Kallor, Vorcan, Fisher, retired BB,...), dead Seguleh under the city, the prophetised return of the Tyrant, Humble Measure, and so on. It was not required any description, just some new characters.
Everything was there.

How many times did I ask myself "who's the seguleh 1st? how powerful is he? Is he an ascendant? And what about Dassem, is he the 7th now?" or "were the so often mentioned tyrants of Darujhistant humans? Some connection to Raest?". Everything was there for ICE to tell us.
Well, he did, but what a disappointment.

As already said in another thread, the story in OST does not change anything: Moranth remain in the mountains, Seguleh back to their island, Genebackis is still under the Malazan imperium, the council rules Darujhistan, the great tactical genius Leoman is on vacation.
Oh, yes, the Seguleh have a new First, but it seems he likes monastery life, a bunch of wizards wander in Kurald Galain, Tayschrenn becomes T'renn, some Tiste Andii girl finds her home and Torvald Nom is councilor. Is it just me or this is not enough, given the premise?
I mean, Dassem fights with a broomstick, the WARLORD Caladan Brood is pushed aside by some Rhivi punk who wants war, Karsa says 'hello'.

In comparison to the other ICE books (Sw), here the reader knows from the beginnings a lot af stuff (the setting and the characters) and attention to some details was required: don't want to argue about the timeline, but there are some stupid inconsistencies like Orchid describing Rake that comes from Kurald Galain with Moon Spawn or the flintlegs T'lan Imass saying that he met the First to a Seguleh (someone said probably he was referring to the First Sword of the Imass, but to me it doesn't make sense).
On the other hand, even if I find the Malazan reaction to the Moranth attack on the Seguleh excessive, I think it had the purpose of showing indirectly how letal the Moranth were and to convince the reader that the resolution in Darujhistan required something different from a Moranth attack, unless one didn't want the annihilation of the city.
The Tyrant's death didn't bother me, after 500 pages of almost nothing I laughed out loud because despite the presence of Moranth, Seguleh, Dassem Ultor, Topper, Rallick Nom, vindicative T'lan Imass, etc, the feared Tyrant is killed (all right, by fragments of Dragnipur and) by two idiots.

The fact that the Tyrant was a mask and that anyone could be tyrant, that was a problem. It's too metaphorical, too easy, it does not give satisfaction. It makes the Tyrant a flat image, devoid of the true cruelty of his role, it is "just a mask", it is like that period. There can not be simpathy for the tyrant, we can not understand him, his motivation, his struggle to rise to power. No, it's just a mask, you wear it and you are Tyrant. All the previous (human) tyrants were that mask. This was so silly...

OST has some good moments, for Bauchelain at the Spawn or Madrun and Lazan Door fighting the Seguleh. But these are not plot twists or whaterver, just some pay off for a fan.
In my opinion OST failed to give a sense of achivement, the adventure is nice but without purpose per se (the Ansty/Red/Nightvision at the Spawns) and we Malazan readers deserve more than this.

[The Seguleh 46th]

Everything has pretty much already been covered in this thread on why this book felt underwhelming to me, so won't go into any more detail than has already been described. There were moments, yes, but ultimately, it felt as though nothing happened at all. A big baddy that Baruk had told Anomander (in GotM perhaps?) that even with his help, they may not stand much of a chance, really turned out to be a true dud. I liked the menacing promise that he had when walking out the tomb and into Darujhistan, but that's where it ended. And why was Taya even in this group of obediant servants, what was her motivation, other than some unknown and unexplained adolescent rebeliion against her mother? Where was Kallor? Karsa and the killing of Fener (figured that would tie in somehow, as the killing of a God would seem to be a pretty significant event IMO!)? Dassem becoming First was predictable from the start. Ditto for Scorch and Leff "saving" the day. A wee bit too much Deus Ex Machina, ala Moranth swooping in with the aerial assualt, Tay saving the BBs in K'ruls', Brood showing up and doing, well, something, etc. No tragedy, no true impending sense of doom, or any true "Aha!" moments. I liked it enough for what it was, true, but also the same overall feeling i get when watching a second-rate action film. Good enough, but ultimately a one-time read. I really like ICE, and after his amazing/tremendous/electric (pick your description!) offering of Stonewielder, i was utterly salivating for this book to come out and be devoured by myself. Maybe it was the weight of writing a book that featured mostly characters from the SE side of things that brought it to this? Not sure. I'm just hoping when ICE gets back to his own personal side of the story, it will pick back up again, 1000%! Hopefully.

[hadoken13]

I was going to post my complaints of this book but like the previous poster, it has already been covered.

I really need to re-read all the books again to see if there is anything I missed, after I get the Forge of Darkness of course, as I feel there are plot-lines and characters back stories that I may have forgotten or I want to find out about that may tie back into this book and make up for all the complaints I have. Although, this may be wishful thinking.

[Tyrant]

Rumours of my demise are grossly exaggerated
On a serious note, I finally got round to this book and there has been some very reasoned criticism levelled in his thread. I've not read it all though so may well be repeating people. I enjoyed the book, if only because I was once again immersed in my favourite world for a few days, and it's been a couple of years. But ICE cheapened it with that extremely unsatisfactory deus ex machina. I found those two muppets more and more irritating as the story wore on, their prominence, the pseudo-estuary English that didn't really work, I started to worry they were being set up for some crucial role but even then I didn't expect him to go that far. The entire plot thread with Spindle/Duiker/Fisher was utterly pointless: by the time the wall came down the Moranth barrage was already over and a couple of inadvertent plebs had taken down the all-powerful Tyrant of darujhistani nightmares. COME AGAIN?
I thought the Malazan regular parts were very weak too, which was a shame because they were excellent in RoTCG and such a hallmark of the series as a whole.
I did enjoy the Seguleh parts a great deal though and looked forward to them the most but I was also struck by how trite the Malazan reaction to them being cusser'd was. Clearly ICE was going for the emotional/compassion gravitas that SE does so well but it didn't really ring true.

And I still don't have a clue what the crack whore witch that Kruppe copped off with was about, I just about twigged she was a cabal member in hiding (I think) but what was her scenes all about?

This post has been edited by Tyrant: 05 February 2013 - 02:14 AM

[worry]

Derudan was a cabal member who resisted the call (recall the scene of her struggling and vomiting) because she was ensorcelled by Kruppe through his sex magic and other nefarious acts. She in turn ensorcelled the shaft portions of the bolts, which carried the Dragnipur shards that Barathol and Humble Measure shaped into bolt-heads, which Kruppe subsequently and secretly armed Leff and Scorch with to take down the Tyrant.

[Tyrant]

Ah right. And what about Humble Measure, I don't think his motivations were really explained: he wanted the return of the Tyrant/Legate so he could what, make lots of weapons and armour for Daru's defence, and then he realised the terrible error of his ways when they built a wall instead? Eh?

[worry]

From TTH, it appears that his primary goal was to resist the Malazans, whose military incursion destroyed much of his life in One Eye Cat. To be honest, I think he's one of SE's set-ups that ICE kinda flubbed, or at least under-served. I suppose you can say, since the Tyrant turned out to be worse than the Malazans, that Humble had a change of heart...not towards the Malazans, but in a means-justifying-the-ends way he realized he was doing more harm than good. But like I said, I think that element was under-explored by ICE.

[Overactive Imagination]

I thought Scorch and Leff were great in this book, which is surprising because they were my least favourite characters in TtH.

I also thought that ICE really nailed the conclusion with this one - it had me turning pages like a motherfucker like all of Erikson's books did as well.

[Cipher]

tl;dr


Just finished the book and I liked it. Wasn't the best but I enjoyed it.

[worry]

Valuable input.

[tiam]

Cipher, on 03 March 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

tl;dr


Just finished the book and I liked it. Wasn't the best but I enjoyed it.

Thanks for stopping by, excellent first post.

[koryk]

If I can take an intermediate view here, I agree that OST was weak, but still appreciated being in the universe of Wu for a time. For the most part, as has been said, the characters were almost without exception underpowered. Even the big names are underplayed: Caladan Brood seems a complete waste - big man with hammer that fails to break the only thing it tries to hit! Dassem barely lifts a finger in his new role as avatar of peace! Tayschrenn is rescued from the paper bag he couldn't fight out of by himself! Come on! (And will we ever see the Vitr again?) The main villain is sketched but never elevated to any serious level of danger, and so we fully expect a resolution with minimal significant casualties, which is exactly what we get. Female characters, disappointingly, don't lift off the page - Kiska and Yusek - can you tell the difference? Antsy comes across as an honest, if a bit pessimistic, old but not too old man. But the staggering convenience of arriving in Moon's Spawn while large numbers of other significant players also happen to be there, is a painful coincidence too much. The bunch at K'rul's bar are also pretty superfluous to the plot, though Esslemont and Erikson must know that readers want to see things happen around Fisher and Duiker. Leff and Scorch really need to be in a Bauchelain and Korbal Broach novella, where they would fit perfectly, rather than taking centre-stage here. I like them but again the coincidence of their ultimate use does not chime. The exposition of the Seguleh, implacable and exotic during so many previous books, strips them of any mystery without adding or even sustaining their reputation. I do think that their casual annihilation by Moranth bombardment weakens them, not only in Malazan eyes, but in the reader's as well. Unlike previous Esslemont entries, with ROTCG and SW providing strong characters and significant events, OST seems like a filler, cobbled together from ideas that our boys have had kicking around for a while regarding Seguleh v Moranth, but poorly executed. Mind you, better than 90% of the rest of fantasy out there. One hopes that Blood and Bone (BAB?) gets back on track in terms of events to significance to the Malazan concept as a whole.


On a separate note, does anyone think that they can launch a new series on the back of the most recent events, especially in DOD? It would be a shame if future books just fills in gaps rather than taking a leap forward.

[worry]

The first Karkhanas book was already a huge game changer and I have no doubt that series will continue to be. But forward-thinking, I also think the Karsa trilogy is gonna springboard off of these books nicely, with some new gods, new paths/warrens, new ascendants, and plenty of room for at least some old players to be involved too. Have no idea what ICE will do to follow up Assail, but as far as I'm concerned the adventures of Shadowthrone and Cots aren't over. They might intersect with Karsa or they may not, but it'll be interesting to find out.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Having now read FoD I would like ot go back and read some of the Draconus in Moon's Spawn scenes in OST for a little perspective.