Malazan Empire: OST is a stupid and boring book. - Malazan Empire

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OST is a stupid and boring book. There, I said it.

#1 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 06:41 PM

BOOM! How do you like them apples?!

Last year when I finished Stonewielder I complained that Esslemont and Erikson were bad story tellers. Not bad writers per say, for from it in fact, but they, Esslemont particularly, can't seem to tell a story properly. Or rather, maybe, it is that they are telling each other a story and us the readers are left standing by the way side oblivious to all the secret events and truths that they omit from their narrative. What ever, the point is that this book was meandering, vague and lacked any willingness to commit to what it promises. This was yet another convergence that fizzled out and turned into what I would now describe as the patented "Malazan blue balls of unexpected story turns".

It is like the writers have a dogma that they have to abide by when writing the story.

Rule nr. 1 - First rule of Malazan storytelling club is that you never ever tell the reader anything important. Do not under any circumstances let them know what is actually going on in the story. Give them all kinds of POVs but never tell them anything.
Rule nr. 2 - Second rule is the same as the first only spelled in capital letters like Brad Pitt was shouting them.
Rule nr. 3 - Have some kind of philosophical or political point you want to make, use new characters POV to do so.
Rule nr. 4 - Introduce at least 5 known power houses into the story. Imply that they will destroy EVERYTHING any minute now. Have them do fuck all.
Rule nr. 5 - Spend 900 pages implying how dangerous the Big Bad is and how terrible the coming convergence will be, then dismantle everything in a few pages by having quirky side character/ mischievous deus ex malazan pull out a new/old/something borrowed that changes everything and the story is over.

I really liked the set-up of the book but it never went anywhere. The first section with Ebbin was like something out of a HP Lovecraft story, really good. This tyrant had something that all the prior bad guys, perhaps with the exception of MOI, was missing, that being a feeling of "terrible dread". Antsy's preparations for going to the Spawns was also really foreboding. ANYTHING could happen.

Then the book gets going and... nothing is happening. NOTHING. Some mages teleport around the continent being mean. Pointless sections with patented Malazan soldier monologue. Ascendants get constipated. Random b-list characters go about their lives interspersed by brief sections of awesome where the Seguleh fuck up everything.

This is going on for a while and before I realise it there is only a couple hundred pages left AND THE BOOK HAS YET TO GET INTO GEAR, FFFFFFFFFFUUUUU....

Here's my problem with this book, the reason why I will call it boring. The same problem that TTH and DOD has. The book has no escalation of threat. No sense of impending Doom. It has no armies of Mordor marching upon the human kingdoms. It has no James Bond villain with his finger upon the Weapon of Mass Destruction 5 seconds before the world ends. It doesn't even have a Big Bad guy that you would expect to kick every ones ass if they encroach upon his domain. All you have is a mysterious tyrant sitting on a Throne, with a magic dome over his head, with some rather incompetent mages doing his biding. The seguleh were never really that imposing. We always knew munitions would kill them and if that wasn't enough an angry mage or a cloud of d'ivers could have killed them just as easily. Yes, Seguleh are cool, but I think this book demonstrated that Seguleh are cool in small numbers and when they are acting mysteriously, not when they are marching around on the field of battle. Then they are just another army.

The stuff at the Spawns was also tremendously underwhelming. As nice a guy as Antsy is, he's not really strong enough to carry his own story line. And the story he was in was not really that interesting when you realised that this wasn't a dungeon crawl/raiders of the lost arc type of story but more of a cannibal disaster movie. We didn't get nearly enough lore or info dumps and the protagonists and antagonist weren't really enough to keep the story moving. For it to have been really good, an actual Throne of Night would have needed to be there and it should have revealed a lot earlier as the "macguffin". If I hadn't read the blurb on the back of the book I would have been even more at a loss to what the point of that story line was. (was there a point? I suspect the entire thread was just a means of creating Orchid for Eriksons Kharkanas trilogy)

For this book to have been really good, you would have needed scenes where all 12 mages were out and about doing horrible stuff like destroying armies and blowing up cities. Like The Lady's henchmen in the Black Company book for example. Darujistan should be fielding horrible automaton stone soldiers, fanatical brain washed citizen armies and 50,000 undead seguleh arising from the dwelling plain marching upon Pale, Capustan, the Moranth, everything. Setting us up for epic city sieges and lasts stands of deadlocked armies. Meanwhile in Darujistan the Elect should have been busy conjuring up some kind of magical doomsday scenario. Like summoning an ancient warren of OH SHIT or maybe, tying in with this rulership business, he should have been trying to usurp the Deck of Dragons or something like that. Everything should be up in the air. Ascendants should be charging him and getting struck down. Gods should be meddling and making deals. Oponn should be having a field day.

But nope. Everyone is busy at another disappointing convergence on the other side of the world, so unfortunately only the B-team was available for cameo's that day. And that is a problem. Right here, just making up random scenarios, I've written a more interesting plot than Esslemon wrote over the course of a year.

Erikson at one point stated that he hasn't wanted or hadn't had time to go back and re-read the older books. Maybe Esslemont hasn't either. This is bad for the development of the series because it hit a high note in MOI with a multitude of armies, ascendants and general WTF'edness going on everywhere. For you to continue to meet the expectations of your readers you need to either reach at least the same level of awesome as MOI or try to surpass it. This book isn't even trying.

Which brings me to another problem I have with the book. Where was the normal Malazan tragedies? The heart break? The pointless soul wrenching loss of life? The mindless destruction? Nobody of interest even dies in this book? Maybe I'm forgetting some one important but for the life of me I can't remember a single person of interest dying except that sergent who got blinded, some awesome fist ("least we wounded one of them") and... oh Jan, yeah, now I remember, but who wasn't expecting that guy to die. Coll should have died of a heart attack, Torvalds wife should have died from an errant bomb explosion, Picker or Blend should have been crushed by the automaton, Corien should have died from his wound, Taya should have been falcon punched to death by Topper, Rallick should have been killed by Taya, Baruk should have been mercy killed by Kruppe, Duiker should have died in some stupid sacrifice, Leoman should have walked into the Vir, Karsa should have killed EVERYONE IN THE ENTIRE CITY etc. etc.

I remember a thread a year or two ago complaining that Fiddler was Eriksons Mary Sue (character that never dies) well, you know who this series real Mary Sue is? Fucking Darujistan. WHY IS DARUJISTAN STILL STANDING. FUCKING STUPID CITY. JUST DIE ALREADY. Munitions buried in its streets. A super demon fighting with a draconic ascendant. A Jaghut Tyrant on a rampage. Two ascendant twins having a mage battle. A dozen hounds running amok. A sword fight between Rake and Traveller. A FUCKING BARRAGE OF CUSSERS! WHY WONT YOU DIE, DARUJISTAN!? WHY!? We always hear that when powers converge, ascendants clash, etc. that cities are destoyed, countries fall, continents are lain waste... well? I really thought this time they are actually going to do it.

If this book had wanted to impress me, to actually commit to world changing events, either Brood would have destroyed the city (Not realising the dome was unbreakable) or the Moranth would have destroyed it anyway because [missing doomsday device plot] was still a threat. But no. Kruppe and Scorch and Leff saved the day. GOD DAMMIT.

So I repeat, this book was boring. Nothing of significance happens in this book. NOTHING.

But wait Apt, that's not true you say. Tayschren becomes a god. Dassem becomes the First. Who gives a shit? .... Not me. Those two plot strands were so god damn obvious and telegraphed that you could see them from the moment they got introduced. Oh hey, the 8th is looking for the 7th, Dassem is now a pacifist and the tittle of 1st is open. I really can't guess where Esslemont is going with this. What? Tayschren is immune to the touch of chaos, was remade by a creator of worlds and has lost his memory? I wonder if he is going to regain his conciousness and be completely different. WHAT A TWIST. As much as I liked seeing these two guys again, because lets face it, awesome shit happens every time they take a breath, their sections were predictable, drawn out and in the end amounted to fuck all in the main story line which should have been the important part. Why not time it so that Tay arrived in time to defeat Baruk and that clone of the Limper from the Black Company? Why not time it so that Dassem arrives in time to kill the top Seguleh, because [missing ploy device] had to be stopped before the Elect turned into the State Puff Marshmallow Man?

What's that? It would have been too awesome? Yeah, you're probably right. Better to have Baruk just disappear the last 200 pages. That limper guy crumple for no apparent reason. And Kruppe deus ex machina the Elect with the help of Scorch and Leff. (By the way are those two some kind of ascendants a la the drunks from Lether? Because I think they mainly live off alcohol.)

Again, like last year when I made a thread bitching about the authors story telling, I will say that the book had its moments and Esslemont continues to improve. I just wish the guy had some kind of circle of trusted proof readers that could look at his script and tell him that he needs to turn the awesome all the way up to 11 because the story isn't powerful enough.

This post has been edited by Aptorius: 18 February 2012 - 08:49 PM

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#2 User is offline   Khellendros 

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 07:50 PM

As when you wrote about it before, I'm not sure your argument about bad writers vs. bad storytellers is entirely valid (though it is a nice discussion point).

However, I agree with everything you said about OST. Which is unfortunate, because I don't want to bash ICE, I so want his books to be good, but with this one I was, simply put, severely disappointed for the exact reasons which you gave.

I am also entertained by your alternative plot ideas :Oops:
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#3 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 08:35 PM

Quote

OST is a stupid and boring book.


Quote

I will say that the book was entertaining


I'm confused.
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#4 User is offline   Khellendros 

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 08:37 PM

View PostH.D., on 18 February 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

Quote

OST is a stupid and boring book.


Quote

I will say that the book was entertaining


I'm confused.



I think that's part of his writing/storytelling argument. Which, as you're just pointed out, doesn't really add up :Oops:
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#5 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 08:52 PM

View PostH.D., on 18 February 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

Quote

OST is a stupid and boring book.


Quote

I will say that the book was entertaining


I'm confused.


Edited that. It had its moments. Seguleh at the Temple. Bauchelain in the Spawns. Every scene with Scorch and Leff. Fisher writing epic poems. Kruppe leaving pastry messages. Etc.

This post has been edited by Aptorius: 18 February 2012 - 08:53 PM

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#6 User is offline   Wry 

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 09:03 PM

Reluctant as I am, I have to aggree with you Apt - 100%.
There comes a point where the whole "mysterious big bad, caused by mysterious cabal of secret beings with unknown agenda, threatens massive cataclysm but is undone by an ironically, insignificant Deus Ex Machina" plot becomes formulaic. Especially in a shared world of fourteen books (is it 14? So far at least). Even more frustrating is the fact that all this mystery is just created by hiding characters names and writing in irritating non-sequiter, snapshot pov chapters.


And i can understand the reasoning. That mystery was a key aspect in generating the shock and emotional gut-punch effect some of the earlier novels had. However I think sometime before TtH this became less about making a great experience or story for the reader and more about the author trying to be clever. In a series this size the style needs to evolve, and it hasn't

I don't see ths as being an ICE problem, this is an SE problem that Ice seems to be compelled to repeat, through out ICE's books I see flashes of a genuinly good writer trying to get out and i think he'd be much better if he did his writing on a blank slate so to speak, where he would not feel constrained by these weird Malaz writing conventions.
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#7 User is offline   Bonecaster 

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 10:31 PM

I had said at another site that it was very slow-moving. Antsy's adventures could have happened in less than half the writing. The point - at least as far as this book is concerned - was to get the mask back to the Seguleh. Maybe SE needed Orchid, but that didn't need all that stuff either. The whole journey up to Traveller could have skipped a meeting with one or two groups. Kiska and Leoman were examining every grain of sand they ran across. The seventy four stories that took place in Darujhistan were too drawn out. Making Tayschrenn the new K'rul, making Dassem the Seguleh First, and getting a supposedly final resolution with the Moranth, Seguleh, and Darujhistan were great things. And each deserved a full, fleshed-out story. But, imo, it was filled-out more than it was fleshed-out.

Mind you, I'm not at all sorry I read it. I love all things Malazan, and Genebackis rocks. Monumental things happened. (I hope we get to see Dassem and T'renn in the future.) Well worth the shortcomings, imo. ICE ICE BABY!
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#8 User is offline   Porus Reign 

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 12:49 AM

It was page 555 when the ridiculous Leff and Scorch were shooting arrows that I could no longer deny that I'd been suckered. I put the book down in disgust. I felt had, cheap and a little bit used.

I love the Malazan Empire, I've been lurking around since the dawn, but what happened?

Putting a Malaz book down like that has never even been contemplated (expect in moments of respect for the narrative, to give a fallen character the space they deserved). I never thought putting a Malaz down from disillusionment could happen. I'm forgiving, those first 5 books in the series brought a lot of latitude. I've never really questioned the series. I've been puzzled by it, I've wondered about a few things, but I've always felt in safe hands. I just allow myself to be immersed in all things Malaz. I've laughed, I've cry, I've been worn out and I've rejoiced, for twelve years I've been revelling in the Glory.

Yesterday, was a real shame...

I read Apt's post and thought "Where do you get off!!!!! Show me your masterpiece and then we can compare notes!!!!!" But, apart from a few superfluous jibes, it hurt most because so much of it rang true.

My take is that I enjoyed the set up, I was salivating over what would happen at the Spawn; I didn't want to see the Malaz or Moranth get mauled but I DID want to see the Seguleh unleashed and then there was Dassam, Rallick, Barathol, Topper turns up and my fingers are positively sweating as pages turned... waiting, waiting...oh there Bauchelain!!! waiting, waiting, waiting... then page 555!

I think what is missing is the Risk! Where's the attack on the normal fantasy trope? Where's was the devastating, cut me off at the knees, I can't believe this is happening, oh my gosh Malaz reward we normally get?

For the first time EVER I'm not desperate for more.

It's too late now, but part of me thinks a good thing should be laid to rest before its too late.

(Back in 2000 when I was trawling for some literature to enthral me I was drawn to the Malazan books because that did not have in the title, "Book One of the 'Tolkien clone - yawn-' Trilogy"; I note Erikson's next offering is "Book One of the Kharkanas Trilogy." I'm a little worried.

This post has been edited by Porus Reign: 19 February 2012 - 01:01 AM

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#9 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 12:53 AM

Be prepared, he's said it's going to be based along more classical fantasy lines as well.
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#10 User is offline   Bonecaster 

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 01:24 AM

I think Leff and Scorch are the single worst thing about the book. ICE doesn't write that kind of silliness nearly as well as SE. And they aren't actually brilliant. Tehol and Bugg are incredible. And then they accidentally save the day? Which Kruppe somehow knew would happen? No, it doesn't work at all for me.
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#11 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 06:40 AM

I actually really liked Scorch and Leff. They have that bumbling ignorance that allows them to do anything, go anywhere, because they are oblivious to the world around them. A god isn't unkillable if you don't know you're not supposed to be able to kill him. I now suspect that Kruppe tampered with the councils guard roster to make it look like Scorch and Leff were highly decorated guards, but at the time I wanted to believe that Scorch and Leff had existed as two immortal drunk guards for centuries or millenia, where they had occasionally bumbled their way into the service of Darujistan time and again, accidentally done something awesome and then a week later been fired for being drunk on duty and vomiting on a princess.

I was going "Oh no, they didn't" when they first shot the Elect and then panicked and tried to kill him outright. Of course, I would have liked that scene more if the bolts had had no effect on the guy except annoying him. It would have been a fine demonstration that this guy does not die from mortal wounds. I find it hard to believe that the Elect or none of the mages were able to sense the power of the bolts and crowsbow. Kruppe being invisible I can accept since that is his thing but please. Slivers of dragnipur should be sensed from a mile away.

This post has been edited by Aptorius: 19 February 2012 - 06:56 AM

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#12 User is offline   WhiskeyJackDaniels 

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 08:09 AM

The Scorch and Leff killing the Tyrant really bothered me.

Not that they were the ones to do it, as opposed to Brood, or Dassem, or Karsa, or Kallor (is he not still in the city? did I miss something?) Jan wielding some secret Seguleh artifact that ends up being an otataral sword. Just how it happened.

They accidentally shot him once, so they decided to keep on shooting so that nobody would know it was them that did it.

Could it not have been something more poignant? Scholar Ebbin breaking down in the throne room and fighting the mind control that the Tyrant had over him like Baruk did the entire book giving clues to Spindle. Or maybe reporting some bad news, like say, idk...an ascendant with a really big hammer just broke your magical dome of invincibility and the Tyrant throws a hissy fit and starts choking out Ebbin. At which time Scorch and Leff look on drunk and bored until one of them realizes if Ebbin is dead he can't pay them the money he owes them so they pincushion the Tyrant with the special bolts Kruppe gave them.

Would that not have been an immensely more satisfying ending?




p.s. I like the Seguleh. The Seguleh are awesome. But I want in a future book for a veteran of the Bonehunters who stood down and fought off an army of K'Chain Na'Ruk to sit down in Coops with a veteran of the Malazan army from this book who tells them about the time 10,000 of them almost got entirely obliterated by 400 swordsmen while inflicting almost no casualties in return. I'm just saying...
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#13 User is offline   Nyarlathotep 

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 10:42 AM

I wouldn't go so far as to say that OST is a stupid, boring book but I do agree with Aptorius' dogmatic rules theory. This worked well in the first few Malazan books but towards the end it was becoming frustrating. Fair enough, don't spell it all out for us (we're not completely stupid) and, yeah, leave some things a mystery (speculation is a fun thing) but leave us some clues so we can work it out instead of being deliberately obtuse.
I think Wry's onto something with his post. I've been thinking that as well, that ICE is trying too hard to present his work in the accepted Malazan style. Lots of new characters, clash of powers/convergence, never giving answers, etc. Maybe it's a style that doesn't suit him.
I like ICE's books but I'm confused as to what he's trying to do with them. Sometimes I think they're stand alone books about things fans have asked to hear more of; Kellanved and Dancer-NOK, the Crimson Guard-ROTCG and so on. But if they are, they never clear things up. We still don't know what happened between K and D and Laseen. And other times I think they must be an ongoing series; Kiska's story arc. But if it is a series, it's really disjointed because Kiska's story is the only thing that connects them.
I'm also confused as to how ICE's books are fit in with TMBOTF. The one thing that springs to mind is Laseen's fate in ROTCG. OK, it doesn't have any impact on what Tavore is trying to achieve but it's barely mentioned and when it is, nobody really reacts to it. I woulda thought somebody, somewhere might have at least said "Oh good. The bitch deserved it!" but nah.
As for OST, as much as I enjoyed it, there's just too many unanswered questions to make it a completely satisfying read. Whadya mean, there's only been one Tyrant? And who is he? And where does that leave Raest? Where did Scorch and Leff get those magic arrows? We're assuming it was Kruppe but it's not made clear. Why are people looking for the Throne of Night in Moon's Spawn when it's in Kharkanas in KG? And if it's not, then why isn't the Throne in it's respective warren? Who the hell is Orchid? Why did Karsa sit it out when just about everybody else, including Bauchelain and Korbal Broach, make a cameo appearance? And why K'rul's sudden penchant for crossdressing? I'm all for being thrown a curveball but that's just ridiculous.
I'm hoping ICE will tie it all up in his last two books but if he sticks to Apt's dogmatic rules then it's gonna be disappointing. I'll still buy em, though.
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#14 User is offline   the broken 

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 02:44 PM

Quote

But I want in a future book for a veteran of the Bonehunters who stood down and fought off an army of K'Chain Na'Ruk to sit down in Coops with a veteran of the Malazan army from this book who tells them about the time 10,000 of them almost got entirely obliterated by 400 swordsmen while inflicting almost no casualties in return. I'm just saying...


That's not fair. The Bonehunters had Cotillion, Quick Ben (ie. Twelve skilled mages) a hell of a lot of munitions, and they didn't fight off the K'Chain, they just held them long enough for the army to flee. The Nah'ruk were on their way to somewhere else, so they didn't pursue.

The lack of references to Laseen is to avoid spoiling Crimson Guard to anyone who hadn't read it. Plus, they're on the other side of the world, so the only people keeping track of what's happening back home are Quick Ben and Shadowthrone.

Quote


Scholar Ebbin breaking down in the throne room and fighting the mind control that the Tyrant had over him like Baruk did the entire book giving clues to Spindle. Or maybe reporting some bad news, like say, idk...an ascendant with a really big hammer just broke your magical dome of invincibility and the Tyrant throws a hissy fit and starts choking out Ebbin. At which time Scorch and Leff look on drunk and bored until one of them realizes if Ebbin is dead he can't pay them the money he owes them so they pincushion the Tyrant with the special bolts Kruppe gave them.

Would that not have been an immensely more satisfying ending?



Absolutely. I would have preferred this by far. The Tyrant's end was a real disappointment. After all this buildup, I was hoping he'd be a two book villain like Rhulad or Sha'ik.

Edit: About the Kharkanas Trilogy... Is it set back when Rake and Blind Gallan were around, or after Nimander's recolonisation? Does anyone know?

This post has been edited by the broken: 19 February 2012 - 02:50 PM

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#15 User is offline   The Pack 

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 03:28 PM

I was waiting for the big reveal that the things that light the lamps at night were the original seguleh who didn't follow the path of the sword. It fits the story well enough and any physical differences can be explained by the years of isolation. Somebody get the text of the book and change all the dodgy bits that could have been better and post the Malazan forum revised version! I feel a bit bad trashing ICE's book, but it's only because i care i promise!!!
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#16 User is offline   WhiskeyJackDaniels 

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 04:49 PM

View Postthe broken, on 19 February 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

Quote

But I want in a future book for a veteran of the Bonehunters who stood down and fought off an army of K'Chain Na'Ruk to sit down in Coops with a veteran of the Malazan army from this book who tells them about the time 10,000 of them almost got entirely obliterated by 400 swordsmen while inflicting almost no casualties in return. I'm just saying...


That's not fair. The Bonehunters had Cotillion, Quick Ben (ie. Twelve skilled mages) a hell of a lot of munitions, and they didn't fight off the K'Chain, they just held them long enough for the army to flee. The Nah'ruk were on their way to somewhere else, so they didn't pursue.

The lack of references to Laseen is to avoid spoiling Crimson Guard to anyone who hadn't read it. Plus, they're on the other side of the world, so the only people keeping track of what's happening back home are Quick Ben and Shadowthrone.

Quote


Scholar Ebbin breaking down in the throne room and fighting the mind control that the Tyrant had over him like Baruk did the entire book giving clues to Spindle. Or maybe reporting some bad news, like say, idk...an ascendant with a really big hammer just broke your magical dome of invincibility and the Tyrant throws a hissy fit and starts choking out Ebbin. At which time Scorch and Leff look on drunk and bored until one of them realizes if Ebbin is dead he can't pay them the money he owes them so they pincushion the Tyrant with the special bolts Kruppe gave them.

Would that not have been an immensely more satisfying ending?



Absolutely. I would have preferred this by far. The Tyrant's end was a real disappointment. After all this buildup, I was hoping he'd be a two book villain like Rhulad or Sha'ik.

Edit: About the Kharkanas Trilogy... Is it set back when Rake and Blind Gallan were around, or after Nimander's recolonisation? Does anyone know?


Yea I know the Bonehunters weren't in the exact same situation, they did have Quick Ben and Ruthan Gudd for a little while(though not Cotillion, you're wrong about that). It's just a funny comparison I think.

And Kharkanas is gonna be set back in time. Not present day Malazan.
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#17 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 05:48 PM

Is this confirmed by Erikson? Because I suspect that both trilogies will have stories from present day and the past intermingled. That is why he has set up Sandalath and Rakes son in Kurald Galain at the end of TCG.
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#18 User is offline   WhiskeyJackDaniels 

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 06:05 PM

View PostAptorius, on 19 February 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

Is this confirmed by Erikson? Because I suspect that both trilogies will have stories from present day and the past intermingled. That is why he has set up Sandalath and Rakes son in Kurald Galain at the end of TCG.


Yea. He did a chat on Tor awhile back and confirmed it. I asked him about the name and here was his answer.

32. StevenErikson
VIEW ALL BY FRIDAY OCTOBER 29, 2010 03:58PM EDT
WJD, yeah, up till now only my TW editor knew the title. This trilogy takes us back to before the Tiste diaspora, and involves the eponymous peoples, along with a few others you know well, or think you know well, not as well as you think, as I think you'll see

So, you're the historian who survived the Chain of Dogs.
Actually, I didn't.

It seems you stand alone.
It was ever thus.
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#19 User is offline   the broken 

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 06:43 PM

View PostWhiskeyJackDaniels, on 19 February 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

View Postthe broken, on 19 February 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

Quote

But I want in a future book for a veteran of the Bonehunters who stood down and fought off an army of K'Chain Na'Ruk to sit down in Coops with a veteran of the Malazan army from this book who tells them about the time 10,000 of them almost got entirely obliterated by 400 swordsmen while inflicting almost no casualties in return. I'm just saying...


That's not fair. The Bonehunters had Cotillion, Quick Ben (ie. Twelve skilled mages) a hell of a lot of munitions, and they didn't fight off the K'Chain, they just held them long enough for the army to flee. The Nah'ruk were on their way to somewhere else, so they didn't pursue.

The lack of references to Laseen is to avoid spoiling Crimson Guard to anyone who hadn't read it. Plus, they're on the other side of the world, so the only people keeping track of what's happening back home are Quick Ben and Shadowthrone.

Quote


Scholar Ebbin breaking down in the throne room and fighting the mind control that the Tyrant had over him like Baruk did the entire book giving clues to Spindle. Or maybe reporting some bad news, like say, idk...an ascendant with a really big hammer just broke your magical dome of invincibility and the Tyrant throws a hissy fit and starts choking out Ebbin. At which time Scorch and Leff look on drunk and bored until one of them realizes if Ebbin is dead he can't pay them the money he owes them so they pincushion the Tyrant with the special bolts Kruppe gave them.

Would that not have been an immensely more satisfying ending?



Absolutely. I would have preferred this by far. The Tyrant's end was a real disappointment. After all this buildup, I was hoping he'd be a two book villain like Rhulad or Sha'ik.

Edit: About the Kharkanas Trilogy... Is it set back when Rake and Blind Gallan were around, or after Nimander's recolonisation? Does anyone know?


Yea I know the Bonehunters weren't in the exact same situation, they did have Quick Ben and Ruthan Gudd for a little while(though not Cotillion, you're wrong about that). It's just a funny comparison I think.

And Kharkanas is gonna be set back in time. Not present day Malazan.


Cotillion possessed Lostara. And thanks.
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#20 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 07:12 PM

View PostWhiskeyJackDaniels, on 19 February 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

View PostAptorius, on 19 February 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

Is this confirmed by Erikson? Because I suspect that both trilogies will have stories from present day and the past intermingled. That is why he has set up Sandalath and Rakes son in Kurald Galain at the end of TCG.


Yea. He did a chat on Tor awhile back and confirmed it. I asked him about the name and here was his answer.

32. StevenErikson
VIEW ALL BY FRIDAY OCTOBER 29, 2010 03:58PM EDT
WJD, yeah, up till now only my TW editor knew the title. This trilogy takes us back to before the Tiste diaspora, and involves the eponymous peoples, along with a few others you know well, or think you know well, not as well as you think, as I think you'll see



That answer says nothing about not including current time characters. It just says he will be telling the story of the first times in KG. I don't think he spent the last 3 books of the MBOTF building up the andii and shake along with the Liosan for the ending of TCG. He did all that work as foreplay for what is to come in the Kharkanas Trilogy. Surely. Otherwise there was absolutely no point to in their storylines. Also I am pretty sure Orchid is going to be a central character, in the Kharkanas trilogy, ICE handed her over to SE at the end of OST. There's going to be some story there about Rake mixing the blood of Andii and dragons there.

Similar story with the Karsa trilogy. Erikson is probably going to show how the TTTs fell and how they ended up in the Loaderon Mountains and what Calm and Iccy were doing there. Then in present day he will show Karsa returning to his home lands and showing what happens from there.
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