Malazan Empire: OST is a stupid and boring book. - Malazan Empire

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OST is a stupid and boring book. There, I said it.

#61 User is offline   tiam 

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:27 PM

If one side has munitions and the other doesnt then there not fair fights. Also the use of sorcery is the same. If the Seguleh had been wiped out by a Beak style entity from the ranks we wouldnt have expected the Malazans to start crying.

One of the reasons it doesnt make sense is the these soldiers are stereotypical malazans and ICE depicts them as such. I dont mean Malazans are too tough to cry but there portrayal was very much 'business as usual' in regards to black humour and the vicious brotherhood they represent. If Beak had been more malicious and sent the sorcery back at the Letherii in RG we wouldnt have expected Fiddler and Co to start weeping at the death of honourable enemies.

Anyway its subjective ofcourse. I just felt it was off as did others
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#62 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:33 PM

I hear ya, but personally I'm like the prototypical tough guy that can handle any situation with ease, and yet even I spend roughly 60-70% of any given day weeping uncontrollably, so what does that tell you about the average schmoe? Exactly.
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#63 User is offline   Hoods Breath 

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 07:54 PM

I had a good cry when I read that scene. And then another cry when Scorhleff had his 'ooops' moment.
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#64 User is offline   Ulrik 

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 10:13 PM

For the cry scene... I know what ICE waned to do... it just didint clicked in my head n heart... It was too... forced... made up.

I have no problem with soldiers mourning for worthy fallen enemy, but. These are Malazan. It would work with Perish, Grey Swords, especially with Mott Irregulars...:wallbash:, Rhivi... someone without that distanced proffesional attitude to war as a job. But not with Malazans. After thirteen books showing how they are hardened and almost completely cynical. Thats my first problem. They can pity the enemy... but weeping just after they were slaughtered by exactly the same enemy and got their asses saved by ex-ally? Nope... this is not reasonable for me.

And ammunitions. Yeah, it was a LOT of cussers. But theyīve been using ammunitions for a long time and know what it does. They could collectively began to weep in RotCG when those poor Gold Moranth got ranalled. They didint. Ammunition is weapon, they are used to it and they are proud of it. It looks almost strange, when in one book hardened veterans cry after they are saved... and we have flashback in the same book of Antsy cussering some Fener (iirc) aspected warrior, who wasnt nothing less heroic and special. And nobody shed a tear, just cleaned remains of Fener guy from him.

Simply, for me, scene with crying soldiers wasnt bad as idea... but it was wrong army in wrong situation.
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#65 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 11:01 PM

I disagree on all the plausibility elements, but do agree with the fact that ICE didn't fully pull this scene off. We should have spent a lot more time with Bendan's squad before this event IMO, and also I think the scale of the crying is unclear...I would have preferred it if a few people were crying (one person even hysterical/traumatized) while others had a variety of reactions, because while I still consider it a plausible reaction, I do think it was too simply written, with no clash of perspectives. There should have been a character there who at least represents the argument you guys are making, for example, and nobody does. So what was written makes sense to me (Thorvald, the soldiers who were putting down the injured Seguleh, etc.) but he left out any differing perspectives, which was the problem.
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#66 User is offline   Ulrik 

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 11:10 PM

Yup, with that I agree. Give me two, four soldiers... some which will have enough of background for this sort of reaction. For me it was too schemed - "and now, we eill have crying army". But that is problem with Malazans here... they are useless and completely unnecesary for story. Except fan moment Seguleh army slashing them to pieces, we have too short POV one one squad... and for nothing. Malazans could have worked just with Aragan, Topper and... thats all.
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#67 User is offline   Cedz 

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 01:29 AM

Posted this in another thread, but its relevant here too:

The major problem I had with OST was that the Tyrant was built up throughout the series with so much foreboding that what ICE actually did with him was just a massive let down. Of all the ways he could have made the Tyrant WTF AWESOME, he chose something so mediocre. The Tyrant should have been the Raest of OST with a similarly badass journey to the city. Undead Seguleh should have been rising up from hundreds of cellars throughout the city to answer his call, and all 12 Cabal members should have been enslaved to his will while the living Seguleh arrived by the thousands. And that should have happened during the first half of the book! The scale of the conflict should have been much bigger. ICE could have even kept the Malazan army sections with them facing a whole Seguleh army backed by a cadre of demon high mages having to make a fighting withdrawal towards the Morath mountains. This would have made them getting chewed up much more plausible as ICE could have still shown how disciplined Malazan infantry could hold against Seguleh individual prowess but still get mauled my high grade sorcery. Do away with that silly dome of light and just have a big ass conflagration within Darujistan with all the different players taking the field and converging on the Tyrant who himself has actual overt power. But yeah, there are a hundred different awesome things that ICE could have done, but I guess his imagination went on holiday while writing OST or something.

And yeah I basically agree with all of Apt's points. This book could have been on par with MOI with the right scale of conflict present. ICE's writing has improved by leaps and bounds but he missed a great opportunity to showcase some awesome storytelling and creative plotting.

This post has been edited by Cedz: 29 March 2012 - 01:29 AM

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#68 User is offline   Fredwin 

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 04:22 AM

View PostMWKarsa, on 04 March 2012 - 02:06 AM, said:

The scene in this book that had me completely scratching my head in utter disbelief was the Malazan fighters' response to the Seguleh getting bombarded and blown away by the Moranth. They had just lost almost 50% of their strength and had their own comrades killed by the Seguleh and after watching them get destroyed they start weeping and crying. Utterly ridiculous to go from what had just happened to them to weeping over a foe that had just killed a huge amount of their friends and comrades. ICE tried to pen a powerful emotional moment and instead it came off as utterly cheap and laughable.


I have to say, this was my biggest issue with the title. This little mess of a scene instantly pulled me right out the book. Malazan soldiers crying over, what? Winning? "Nah, it's ok guys, these Seguleh are SO AWESOME that we're going to just let them finish off our entire force. Don't drop the bombs, it's fine. Oh, we use these things all the time and generally cheer afterward? NO, STOP! DON'T DO IT. OH THE HUMANITY."

That was trash.

Something else, can someone explain to me why at the very end of the book K'rul randomly becomes a female? Did I miss something important? That seemed ridiculous to me.

One other thing that bothered me. I feel like ICE screwed up the Barathol-Chaur reunion. That should have been such an awesome moment but it just wasn't there for me.
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#69 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 05:20 AM

Elder Gods are magical beings. They can transform as they want I am sure. But more importantly in this case I suspect, Elder Gods have often been worshipped in different images by different cultures in different ages since eternity. So, K'rul may just have been choosing one random form he/she/it was worshipped in. Perhaps during the last age of the Tyrant K'rul was a woman.
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#70 User is offline   Fredwin 

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 05:45 AM

View PostAptorius, on 03 April 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

Elder Gods are magical beings. They can transform as they want I am sure. But more importantly in this case I suspect, Elder Gods have often been worshipped in different images by different cultures in different ages since eternity. So, K'rul may just have been choosing one random form he/she/it was worshipped in. Perhaps during the last age of the Tyrant K'rul was a woman.


Yeah.. I'm not really saying I don't understand how K'rul can be female. I just don't understand why. Why go 13 books with K'rul a male and then shoe-horn in "Oh, BTW, actually a she." near the end of the 14th book? There was just no need for it. Seems like the author just wanted to pair up T'renn with a female.
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#71 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 07:26 AM

Well it's because K'rul is both and neither...s/he's an elemental god, s/he doesn't really have an XY chromosome pair. Keruli was a male, the moldy old lady in K'rul's bar is a female, neither necessarily gets at K'rul's true nature by any means.
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#72 User is offline   Sindriss 

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 04:35 PM

Horrible ending of the book. The cry scene didn't bother me extremely so, but the ending was just so blank and utterly lacking of any closure, action and awesomeness.

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#73 User is offline   Fredwin 

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 11:52 PM

View Postworrywort, on 03 April 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

Well it's because K'rul is both and neither...s/he's an elemental god, s/he doesn't really have an XY chromosome pair. Keruli was a male, the moldy old lady in K'rul's bar is a female, neither necessarily gets at K'rul's true nature by any means.


Well, I don't necessarily care on a personal level whether K'rul chooses to manifest as a male or female. I get that a god wouldn't strictly belong to one gender or another, that's just a human way of looking at things.

SPOILER!



I mean, The Blessed Lady was a manifestation of TCG right? I thought that was pretty awesome.


I just don't get why K'rul manifested himself as a male for the entire Malazan storyline and then all of a sudden a female for a few pages in this book. I don't see what it accomplishes. I don't see a reason for doing it. Maybe if this happened at the start of another book and K'rul was a major character in it, it would make perfect sense.

To make things more odd. Would you consider Mael an elemental god ? I mean, he only manifests as a male and it's mentioned he's a father to daughters. Usually the sea is thought of as being feminine isn't it? It would still be weird if I read a line in this book that Mael was a female, I don't think it's any less weird that he did it to K'rul.
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#74 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 12:14 AM

I think the point of it is that things are still, even after all these books, less static than what some folks would like to think. When a reader says "Well, finally I understand, that's how it is." these particular authors like to say "Oh really??" Not unlike the scene of gods picking over the scraps of Coltaine's Fall...it's definitely weird, but why not be weird? And Mael is definitely an elemental, as far as I'm concerned, since he is one of the oldest worshiped beings on the world. I don't think he only manifests as a male; doesn't he turn into some kind of monster before killing some Letherii jerks in MT? And Beru certainly seems to be a gender bender at times. And as we learn fairly late in the game (though hinted at through Korabas), the Eleint can switch sexes at whim. Why not gods?
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#75 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:45 AM

Antsy's confused comments over K'rul's gender show that ICE is certainly aware of the discrepancy. I wonder if maybe it is a case of SE remembering from their games K'rul being male and ICE remembering K'rul being female, so ICE decided to stick to his guns and not let SE get away with completely gender-shifting the Elder God on him!

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#76 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 03:04 AM

Haha yah, there's always the in-jokes and friendly competition side to it all.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 04 April 2012 - 03:04 AM

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#77 User is offline   Fredwin 

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:57 AM

View Postworrywort, on 04 April 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

Haha yah, there's always the in-jokes and friendly competition side to it all.


If that's the reason for it than that's fine with me because It at least makes sense. I didn't think of this at first, and it's totally plausible for 2 authors writing in the same universe they co-created to rib each other a little bit.

Personally, I just dislike things that are so jarringly random that they pull me out of the reading experience. Yeah, like you said, Coltaine's altar was another weird scene but I enjoyed it because putting a bunch of gods in a room and having them argue is awesome. Plus you come away from that scene with a few nuggets of information. For me it was learning that God Dessembrae and Mortal Dassim are pretty much different entities.

The K'rul thing though, totally random. Nothing came from it. Maybe if T'renn bangs her in the next book.
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#78 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:19 AM

Oh he will, he will.
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#79 User is offline   Eddie Dean 

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 02:58 PM

To me this book is like when you are working up a real good poop. You sit down and do nothing but fart. I thought the first 1/2 of the book was fantastic. The second 1/2 was a huge letdown. The Tyrant did nothing that made you feel like "Ah shit! Someone take this mother down!"

I liked the book, especially the insights into the Seguleh and the Moranth, but overall it is like Apt said: could have been SO much better.
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#80 User is offline   Edonidd 

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 11:44 PM

Power draws power, and these convergences are supposed to just get bigger and bigger. So let's look at who all was within a stones throw of all of this.

Karsa. He's right there but doesn't do anything, and isn't drawn kk by the convergence.
Draconus. He sends his Morn shadow to his daughter, but isn't drawn in at all himself.
Torrud Cabal or whatever. We know mammont is gone, and Vorcan and the witch manage to stay out of it. But other than those three we only see Baruk, Hinter, and Aman. Plus possibly Taya, don't know if she.counts.
Topper. He shows up and doesn't do much but chase after Taya.
Bridgeburners. Four of them, and they don't really do much besides get saved by Tays, some unread sugulah, and K'rul.
Some Imass who learned from Raest that metal was better than stone swords. Walked in, sparred with the 6th, looked at the tyrant and left. Didn't do anything.
Lady Envy. Didn't do anything at all. Fainted at the sight of a sending or something from daddy. Does Envy seem to any of you guys as a fainting type? She's a millennia old soletaken elient magic user. And could probably have taken out everyone else mentioned so far in this whole city.
Dassem. Fought some duelist with a broom... Off screen. Other than that just walked around and crokus/cutter style emo'd out.
Caladan Brood. Broke a brick or two. Possibly after they were already effectively neutralized by acid.
Sugulah. The second committed suicide Rake style, but for seemingly very little reason. Other than this they did almost everything offscreen, or we were told about it, but rarely shown them. Plus before this book, I believe every suguleh that we saw dual wielded longswords. Except for the hood servant. In this book none of them were shown doing this, but somebody did mention that a few people fought that way.
Kiska might not have been strong enough to matter in a convergence of this magnitude we have building, but Tays definitely is. Nothing, except saved a couple bridgeburners from a statue.
Tyrant himself. Strong enough in some sort of power to enslave the cabal, and usurp peoples own bodies and souls. But other than that did almost nothing.

So all of these and more massive powers and ascendants in the area, and what does the actual convergance look like? A couple nitwits (poorly written ones at that) kill the tyrant and end the whole thing.

Not only was it a stupid and boring book, it went back on everything that has made Malazan, Malazan. It would have been a bad book in anyone's world. I just finished reading it, and I still can't even conceive of a book like this being written in the Malazan universe. It just doesn't make any sense that not only did somebody write this, but it was somebody that helped.create the world and was initimately familiar with it from the ground up. And then some editors read it and said; "sure, this is a good idea."
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