[Corabb Bhilan Thenu'alas]

 Abyss, on 17 February 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

 limping dog, on 17 February 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

You see it as spiritually broken, I see it as an awakening. Here we have this society, believed to be in waiting for greatness and then realizing they were nothing but glorified bodyguards.

That has nothing to do with Mok. he was 'broken' after MoI. The bodyguard thing only happens in OST.

Quote

All in all, making a big deal out of 1 word. Just figured he needed a little more respect for his role and growth in MoI. ...
I see Mok being as the Temp of Segulah heroes, sitting in bar in Cant, coming out when needed.

The Seguleh don't work that way as of the beginning of OST. Wherever Mok was, whatever he was doing, it wasn't generating any 'respect'. Just sympathy.

 tiam, on 17 February 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

He wasnt broken by the new role but likely by his experiences during the Pannion wars I thought. Anyway I wasnt suggesting he was actually broken but merely broken from Seguleh perspective to the fullest extent of his position in the Agatii was taken away from him/he left.

Yep.
But we're left with an open question of whether Jan's interpretation of 'broken' lines up with what that might mean for a non-Seguleh returning home after a war that threw their whole life perspective into doubt.

I had wondered about what the Punative Segulah Army of three had done after Black Coral. Good to recieve answers. Really, a hard dude like that could only end up being twisted over or by a woman. Personally I believe Mok was "broken" due to all the poking around Lady Envy was doing in his head trying to control him for so long. Somebody arched a perfect eyebrow...

[Corabb Bhilan Thenu'alas]

 tiam, on 20 February 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

The implications of the Miner

The Miner is a newish character that ICE brought out of the grounds of the Azath. In TTH when he was introduced were told he earned the ire of Raest by using metal, causing Raest to shatter his legs and toss him down the mine. He is caught up in the ritual of Tellan but is unable to leave because of the shattering of his legs. Harllo then finds the miner and releases him, allowing him to escape the mine but be trapped in the grounds of the Azath.

In OST he apparently has a flint sword, despite the fact we see him use a strange metallic sword that looks like flint. On oversight by ICE maybe? However here is where it starts getting odd. Raest crippling the miner is fine and tossing him into a pit makes sense. However how is it then that the Miner claims to have met the First long ago, when this was before the Ritual of Tellan and,as far as we know, before the rise of humanity? We hear in GOTM that the city is 2000 years old and there was alot of debate before the book came out if that was going to be changed. I suggested that it would be changed and it would likely be 2000 years since the Tyrant fell, which is pretty much what happened. However if thats the case then D'stan, the Tyrant and the Seguleh must stretch back to the time of the Imass, linking Raest with the very foundation of the city. Supposedly it was born on a rumour of finding Raests tomb but that cant really be right either unless the Tyrant is Raest, thus linking Raest with the Seguleh. The Miner even claims that he wouldnt have crossed the champions back then, suggesting the Agatii structure of the Seguleh was evident when he was around before the Seguleh where exiled.

There is more I could go on about here but it seems that theyre back peddling with alot of what laid down as fact in the early books. Did anyone else notice things along these lines?

Yeah, timelines darn 'em! Since GoTM brought up the 300,000 years factor, I figured Miner was from that era, and when he stated that he'd met the 1st, I first thought he meant Onos T'oolan, and then he started in about champions, so I thought, wait, did he mean Dessimbackelissisis' 1st heroe crew or D-stan Seguleh? cause if the former, he'd a have to have been to 7 cities t'lan-ified, and if the latter, they would have PROBABLY COME AND SEEN HIM UNDERGROUND WHEN THEY BURRIED THE TYRANT! Now, that's a thought... some of the T'orrud either escaped burial or went rouge and help the Seguleh entomb the Tyrant...

[Aptorian]

 blackzoid, on 20 February 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Batman beat Superman, so he should be able to beat that dirty mutie no problem.

Yes, but we're talking about a question of marshial skill and potential in a full contact match here, right? Not the "I have all the gadgets and trickery at my disposal" Batman.

 Greymanekas, on 20 February 2012 - 11:33 PM, said:

Batman > Punisher
Punisher > Wolverine
Batman > Wolverine

logic

Are you referring to that one time where Punisher shot wolverine in the face and balls and then steamrolled him? Because Wolverine hunted him down later and threw him out of a building as payback, leaving him bleeding on the ground for the cops to come find him.

And again, this was a question of two fighters going one on one.

In a "fist fight" in the Marvel universe the only people I can see having a chance against Wolverine is the people who have super human/magical strength along with their skill. Guys like Captain America, Electra, Iron Fist and of course Spiderman. A person with normal human strength and reflexes just isn't capable of damaging Wolverine enough to challenge him.

[Abyss]

Re the Miner Imass - he was only found because the mine Harllo was working thru broke through to a pre-Tyrant, Raest era mine. No reason for anyone to have found him before then. His skill level is surprising, but most Imass were warriors along with other practices, and he mentions he's been practicing and only won against Palla because he was undead. Tho i like the notion that the emclava legas added to his speed.

Re Mok 'broken' - i took that as a reaction to a combination of Tool's nobility (he could have dustfucked Mok at any point and fought 'mortal style' instead), Kilava denying Mok the much valued victory, Toc's sacrifice AND the fact that the Seer got away because Mok was off fighting Tool and Senu and Thurule weren't good enough to get to the Seer before he vanished, ergo their whole mission was a failure.

And i acknolwedge there's a line in MoI somewhere that the Seguleh put the contest ahead of anything else, but even so, that was a LOT of effort for no result.

Re the Punisher - Wolverine's whiny emo kid Daken, whose primary power is bisexuality, carved him up like a turkey recently. His credibility is shattered.

[tiam]

EDIT- Reread this and it sounded oddly harsh for some reason. I apologise if it sounds like an attack

 Aptorius, on 20 February 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

It seems to me that the difference lies in terms of the engagement. The Azath Imass was using his considerable strength and damage resistance to wear down Palla. Palla was not able to engage the Imass like a normal sword fighter because any direct counter would have given the same result as Karsa vs the 12th, that being broken wrists and a shattered sword. Tool, as we know, was a far more honorable fighter. Most likely he faced Mok on the Segulehs terms, that being that he was using skill and speed to try and beat the Seguleh, not his inhuman strength.Or, Mok was/is just that good. He was, as far as we've been lead to believe, sent away for political reasons. He was a contender for 2nd and it sounds like he might have had the gall to take the 1st. For all we know Mok as well as the 2nd could have been on the cusp of ascendancy lending them even more strength.

As Amph points out below Tool is not a more honourable fighter. I cannot remember Tool being an honourable fighter throughout the series. The only thing he does that can be seen as honourable is not kill Senu and Thurule and he only does this because he doesnt want to kill Lady Envys servants. In this he uses the flat of his blade. Every other encounter he kills his opponents. He has no reason to face Mok on the Seguleh terms. What exactly are the Seguleh terms your referring to here? You cant mean the practice thats followed by some of the Eldrii that its considered poor form to spill blood as thats not a code. Mok being a contender for Second and been on the cusp of ascendency is also pure speculation based on nothing. We see that Jan was superior to Enoch in every way possible, and while Mok is likely a better 3rd, its not hinted that Mok, Enoch, Jan or the Seguleh First are on the cusp of ascendency. And even if they were Tool is the most formidable swordsman of an entire race that has ascended. How is Mok that good when his entire fighting style is based on ligament damage, the same tactic Palla tried on a much inferior swordsman.

 amphibian, on 20 February 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

Wasn't the first time that we meet Tool when he explodes out of the dust and slices a redshirt Tribesman dude in half with zero warning?I'm somewhat kidding here, as I do think there's quite some flexibility in how Erikson and ICE handle Seguleh power-ups in individual duels. Mok probably was on the verge of ascendancy, while Tool was greatly weakened by Silverfox's drawing upon Tellann and trying to engage on the same skill vs. skill level Mok was fighting on, rather than out and out winning like Karsa and Miner Imass.At elite levels in most sports, not much separates the absolute top from those just below. Slight bits of technique being better, certain physical gifts being superior and/or the tiniest bit of metal speed advantages are what separate elite athletes - usually. Once in a while, you get LeBron James or Michael Phelps though and they have everything and more. Mok might be one of those otherworldly athletes just built to dominate. We know Karsa is one of those for sure.

As I said before Mok wasnt on the verge of ascendency. The Silverfox idea might be true but it didnt stop him killing many Kell Hunters.

The thing about this honourable fighting/skill vs skill level of arguement is that Tool would have wanted to win. Hed just rushed ahead of Envy to try and save Toc. He would want to win that fight to ensure the survival of his friend, so wouldnt have allowed himself to be destroyed. He asks Mok to continue his rescue of Toc but realistically I cant see Tool letting himself get destroyed rather than using the advantage in strength and weight of his weapon.

Like I said its not a huge deal and we can try and rationalise it using book knowledge but it comes down to SE had a differing picture of the Seguleh in MOI than ICE did for OST. We see this in the Krul expecting 400 11th level initiates being sent whereas we see in OST there largest expedition was 20. We also see that the First wouldnt have sent Mok to retain his position and it turns out MOk wanted to be sent against the Pannions and would have had to have the position passed down to him.

Its a difference in author and a difference in time. MOI was unfortunately a long time ago so the missing Second plotline wasnt really picked up as Jan has supposedly been Second for a while.

This post has been edited by tiam: 21 February 2012 - 07:24 PM

[Abyss]

 tiam, on 21 February 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

... As Amph points out below Tool is not a more honourable fighter. I cannot remember Tool being an honourable fighter throughout the series. ...

Actually , in MoI Tool makes the point to Envy and later to Toc, paraphrasing here, that the Imass "...First Sword must be the best...".

It is a HUGE point of honor for Tool that as Imass First Sword, no one is better that him. When Mok decapitates the Kell Hunter, Tool practically looses his shit and moves to challenge him right there, never mind that the only outcome would be one of their deaths while neck deep in Pannion country. Envy intervenes and Tool is very clear that the fight will happen sooner or later.

So it's all about honour and who is the baddest of the badass and nothing less than sword to sword, not fancy stuff, would resolve it.

[tiam]

 Abyss, on 21 February 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

 tiam, on 21 February 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

... As Amph points out below Tool is not a more honourable fighter. I cannot remember Tool being an honourable fighter throughout the series. ...

Actually , in MoI Tool makes the point to Envy and later to Toc, paraphrasing here, that the Imass "...First Sword must be the best...".

It is a HUGE point of honor for Tool that as Imass First Sword, no one is better that him. When Mok decapitates the Kell Hunter, Tool practically looses his shit and moves to challenge him right there, never mind that the only outcome would be one of their deaths while neck deep in Pannion country. Envy intervenes and Tool is very clear that the fight will happen sooner or later.

So it's all about honour and who is the baddest of the badass and nothing less than sword to sword, not fancy stuff, would resolve it.

You say 'not fancy stuff' like the Miner was using all sorts o Tellan to win. Apt also makes the point that the Miner Imass was using his undead endurance to win but we see Thurule cut Tool to shreds, as Toc comments 'your cut to shreds' and Tool claims its been a while since hes had such a challenge. So even in the Thurule fight Tool was 'using' his undead endurance. Also I cannot think of anything less fancy than using your strength advantage against a weaker opponent in a duel to the death.

[Aptorian]

Exactly. Like I mentioned Tool fought on Moks terms. He didn't throw a wall of fire at him, he didn't turn to dust, he didn't use his superior undead strength (we assume, maybe he did). This was a battle of skill. It would have been about finesse not brute force.

[tiam]

Then how? We see Palla beat the Miner on terms of skill but lose because she simply couldnt stop him. How does Mok stop him? We see Tool continue through what would be mortal/duel ending wounds during the Thurule fight so how exactly does Mok stop him using the same methods.

I also brought this up when the Seguleh fighting style was broken down in ROTCG (and ofc expanded upon in OST) that how did Senu and Thurule parry Kell Hunter blades when Gruntle, who is much stronger and also an excellent swordsman, couldnt?

Also do you guys really not think it was a simply a change in authors?

This post has been edited by tiam: 21 February 2012 - 08:03 PM

[Abyss]

By hitting him a LOT.

Which we know for a fact will stop an Imass sooner or later.

Plus Mok beheaded a Kell Hunter with one swipe. Tool couldn't do that and resorts to hitting them a lot later in the book. Point being it's far from clear that Tool takes it on the strength test.


Miner Imass and Palla's fight was a very different conflict and fundamentally in the end she could not hit him enough to take him out. if he had been alive he acknowledged she would have won. Also, that wasn't about honour - Palla was just in his way.

[tiam]

I suppose its never stated how long they fight. But you can see where im coming from with this. Like I said it didnt affect my enjoyment of the book but given that I was bitching about it before the book came out and the scenario came about again I just thought id bring it up.

I still thinks its the change in author though because of the examples I provided. Like the missing Kazz plotline

EDIT- Surely Tool is stronger, wielding an unbreakable flint wepon against some consistently called whip lean throughout the book?

This post has been edited by tiam: 21 February 2012 - 08:12 PM

[buddhacat]

By the way, just noticed an unforgivable sin - ICE called Raest's pet Tufty "Fluffy." That's just wrong.

[blackzoid]

I can see whats been said here, but for what its work I agree with the concept of
1: Tool been more honourable than the Miner Imass, so he fought on Moks terms. Whereas the miner just wanted Pella out of the way as quickly as possible. So the Miner just used pure blunt force. We can see that force can stop Seguleh (Karsa in RG)
2: There been a big difference in skill level between Pella and Mok/Jan

However this is not to say that Tiam is wrong as regards the change in authorship causing some problems with this scene: How the hell did any Imass every meet any Segulah back in the olden Imass days? Ya the timeline is fucked, it should not be fucked that bad!

Ya, the cats name is wrong too.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 21 February 2012 - 08:35 PM

[blackzoid]

Damn double post

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 21 February 2012 - 08:34 PM

[the broken]

Tool fighting Mok Sword to Sword has nothing to do with honour. "The first sword must be without equal." He wants to test himself. He already knows he's more skilled than some Barghast Warrior, so he doesn't feel the need to be noble. It's like being a medieval knight fighting other knights one to one in a duel, but having no problem with riding down peasants, because they aren't close to his level.

Maybe Mok is powerful enough that an attack from him is strong enough to crack bone, whereas Pella just doesn't have that raw power. Even still, she fights the Miner halfway across Majesty Hall, and probably does damage him pretty severely, just not enough to incapacitate him. Tool has been getting in fights for millenia, but the Miner hasn't been damaged since Raest.

'Lean' does not equal 'weak'. Wiry muscle can be as strong as bulky muscle, and is usually better for combat, because it's lighter.
I don't have a huge problem with ICE's writing, but he really, really needs a better editor. How hard is it to catch the cat's name, or that Darujhistani assassins aren't the same as a Claw?

K'rul's gender is probably intentional.

I always thought Mok was emotionally broken by losing his brothers to Lady Envy. He led them on a mission, which was immediately hijacked, and couldn't break her hold on them, so he had to return alone. I think Senu is in Darujhistan at one point in TTH

Quote

I would like to see the argument for how Batman could possibly stand a chance one on one against Wolverine without using gadgets or a super suit

He wouldn't. But I'd still bet on batman to win that fight, because if he needed to defeat Wolverine, he'd just go back to the batcave and get gadgets and a supersuit.

All he needs is a strong magnet, and then it's game over. Wolverine is helpless until Batman chooses to let him go.

This post has been edited by the broken: 21 February 2012 - 09:34 PM

[tiam]

Im not suggesting lean is weak but ofc lean muscle is different, every Seguleh we see apart from Madrun being incredibly lean for speed vs Tools incredible ascendent strength.

I think ill just have to agree to disagree. As I pointed out above I personally dont think Tool would allow himself to be killed while rescuing Toc, to the point where he would simply allow himself to be killed by fighting Mok on Moks terms. While I still dont know exactly Apt means when he says the Seguleh code I suppose if you want to believe that Tool would have died for honour at that point thats up to you. I honestly believe its the change in writer and and a different slant on the Seguleh themselves. For example how do Senu and Thurule exchange blows with the Kell Hunters and how come Pella's swords were close to breaking yet Moks (or Senu or Thurules) never broke. Like I said it didnt hamper my enjoyment of the book as much as other stuff.

As for the Claw/clan assasin thing yes that annoyed me as did any mention of the Miners 'flint' sword. Also I dont think Senu is in TTH.

Are we ever told how Shardam Lim died? I couldnt figure it out when we had the prologue and opening of book 1 as I couldnt remember how it happened in TTH when Gorlas and Hanut Orr get killed. I simply assumed Taya had killed him off sometime between TTH and OST offscreen.

This post has been edited by tiam: 21 February 2012 - 10:00 PM

[Black Winged Lord]

 buddhacat, on 21 February 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

By the way, just noticed an unforgivable sin - ICE called Raest's pet Tufty "Fluffy." That's just wrong.

Maybe Raest had given Tufty a bath? Special Jaghut formula for shampoo?

I dunno, the mental image of that may concievably be worse if thats at all possible.

[Illuyankas]

Reminder that Tool smashed an undead K'ell hunter through a stone keep wall in MOI. He's strong as balls.

[tiam]

 Greymanekas, on 22 February 2012 - 03:43 AM, said:

Reminder that Tool smashed an undead K'ell hunter through a stone keep wall in MOI. He's strong as balls.

Good example and I was also thinking of when he 'with no apparent effort' snaps the antlers off that deer he kills for the arrows

[the broken]

How does a T'lan Imass show exertion? I don't think they can sweat/pant/groan etc.