[tiam]

Thurule was hardly happy about it. He claims theres no point doing something if it isnt for a higher purpose but does eventually fall in with Madrun and Cos plan of insulting the Seguleh by their very existence.

[limping dog]

 tiam, on 17 February 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

Im not understanding where the conflict is coming from here. Im not suggesting he was physically broken and thats why he lost his position in the Agatii. It seems more likely he was spiritually broken, became disillusioned with Seguleh society etc. In fact we have a viewpoint from Sall who claims his father told him his journey to Dassem would be his biggest test. Sall explains its because there is no immediate hierarchy that everyone obeys and it is so different from Seguleh society. Thus it seems Mok felt the same way on his fight through the Pannions.

You see it as spiritually broken, I see it as an awakening. Here we have this society, believed to be in waiting for greatness and then realizing they were nothing but glorified bodyguards.

All in all, making a big deal out of 1 word. Just figured he needed a little more respect for his role and growth in MoI.

I see Mok being as the Temp of Segulah heroes, sitting in bar in Cant, coming out when needed. Would have been nice to hear more about him...

[tiam]

He wasnt broken by the new role but likely by his experiences during the Pannion wars I thought. Anyway I wasnt suggesting he was actually broken but merely broken from Seguleh perspective to the fullest extent of his position in the Agatii was taken away from him/he left.

[Abyss]

 limping dog, on 17 February 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

You see it as spiritually broken, I see it as an awakening. Here we have this society, believed to be in waiting for greatness and then realizing they were nothing but glorified bodyguards.

That has nothing to do with Mok. he was 'broken' after MoI. The bodyguard thing only happens in OST.

Quote

All in all, making a big deal out of 1 word. Just figured he needed a little more respect for his role and growth in MoI. ...
I see Mok being as the Temp of Segulah heroes, sitting in bar in Cant, coming out when needed.

The Seguleh don't work that way as of the beginning of OST. Wherever Mok was, whatever he was doing, it wasn't generating any 'respect'. Just sympathy.

 tiam, on 17 February 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

He wasnt broken by the new role but likely by his experiences during the Pannion wars I thought. Anyway I wasnt suggesting he was actually broken but merely broken from Seguleh perspective to the fullest extent of his position in the Agatii was taken away from him/he left.

Yep.
But we're left with an open question of whether Jan's interpretation of 'broken' lines up with what that might mean for a non-Seguleh returning home after a war that threw their whole life perspective into doubt.

[tiam]

Abys-Yep.
But we're left with an open question of whether Jan's interpretation of 'broken' lines up with what that might mean for a non-Seguleh returning home after a war that threw their whole life perspective into doubt.

I dont think theres an example. I dont mean for us ofc but I mean for the Seguleh themselves. We see that 20 is there most ambitious expedition and they are staunch isolationist so Moks new outlook or whatever you want to call it likely has no precedent in living memory.

[Held]

I love all things Malazan and of course I enjoyed this book. It was a slower read for me than others. I found it easier to put down and go back to than most. It dragged in several places but it held my interest throughout and I was so happy to see familiar and well liked characters again. ICE was spot on with characters such as Antsy, Picker, Blend, Spindle, Duiker, and Barathol. I thought OSB provided many satisfying conclusions and left the reader with fewer questions or new threads to frustrate. I really enjoyed it. I thought ICE got the voices of the characters just right. Some of the storylines were more interesting than others.

My Favorite Storylines were:

First - Antsy and Orchid's trip to the Spawns. A tad slow moving but Antsy as a consummate bridgeburner and learning that Orchid is a daughter of Tiam, so satisfying.

Second - the Seguleh storyline was awesome. It was satisfying to learn more about why they fight the way they do. Less satisfying that 400 of the 500 had to be killed before they began to realize that they were being ill used. Shows the degree to which a warrior culture will follow its code of honor. Dassem and the Seguleh hooking up were most satisfying and intriguing.

Third - Tayshrenn being immune to the Vitr, finding a new and vastly improved self and then joining with Krul and becoming a God was simply Amazing. Does this mean that he will become a guardian of Icarium's new paths or the guardian of Krul's warrens?

Really Liked:

Liked that this book picked up many unfinished threads from the previous books. I thought ICE's writing style has improved yet again with OSB.

Liked finding out that Kruppe has been around thousands of years and repeatedly and successfully fought the Tyrant.

Liked learning the truth of the T'orrud Cabal. A surprise that all of the T'orrud were demons previously enslaved by the Tyrant.

Really liked that Orchard ended up being daughter of Tiam. So few Andi left and she bodes to be a significant Andi.

Liked that we learned a bit more about the Moranth but want more.

My money is on Morn being Rake's shadow not Draconus mainly because Rake would be helpful and this is not Draconus style and Mother Night when talking with Antsy was wistful in asking after Morn.

Did Not Like:

Mok being broken.

Did not understand Malakai's purpose in the story.

Thought the Tyrant was somewhat underwhelming as an evil character. Why does he keep coming back?

Do not like that we still do not know what Kruppe is, a mage supreme, an ascendant, a god?

Thought the Vitr/Maker and Tayshrenn storyline too long. Why is Leoman still in the story? His role seems pointless.

I kept wondering why Lady Envy was in the story, other than allowing us to see what happens to Thurule and Mok, she was a waste of words and ICE did not capture her essence at all.

What I want after reading this book is to see Orchid, Morn, and Dassem as Seguleh First, and Tayshrenn as Trenn in future books.

A final comment: I didn't find the fight scene between the Seguleh and the Malazan's to be fantastically unbelievable. This group of OSB Malazan's was a rag tag bunch with no mages, no hardened and experienced commanders, no munitions, and mostly green recruits. They do not compare AT ALL with Duiker, Whiskeyjack, the bridgeburners or Tavore and her Malazan's. They were totally outclassed by the Seguleh. The Moranth saved them from certain destruction.

While I liked this book, ICE does not draw the characters so that I care as deeply for them as I do with SE's characters. SE makes you care and then cry when they die.

This post has been edited by Held: 19 February 2012 - 02:15 PM

[Studlock]

Yeah, it seems people like to awesome=Malazan, but leave out the fact that all the awesome we see is either a respected, lengdary and veteran army or one lead by a brilliant commander or both. The one OST isn't either of those and they're fighting the Seguleh, top notch fighters who are literally world reunoun for being badass (at least in the Malazan Empire). I find alot of the criticism thrown at ICE is really just nitpicking most of the time which could easily have been done with SE. For all the action we've seen on SC we really don't know all the much about the cultures, tribes, cities, so on and so forth and yet we haven't even been to the Moranth's 'home land' of Cloud Forest and people complain we simply don't know enough about them (except of course what we were told in the book which isn't enough I guess). We didn't see the Barghast for what? three books? in SE's series but most of us trusted he was going to do something with them, but ICE still has written 3 and Moranth have been in all of them, why don't we trust him to bring it all together? Assial literally looks like the best place to bring all his threads together including the CG, Storm Riders, Malazan, Kiska's, and Kyles, hell I would be surprise if he threw in Seguleh as well. I just find it weird that people give SE praise (the first five books featured three different casts with MoI being the only true 'sequel' with HoC feature a half new cast with a quarter of the book diecated to Karsa) and ICE(who has written three novels and novella which gave us characters previous known plus not that many new characters excluding the CG and has clearly left hints that there is a bigger picture with both the CG, Kiska and Kyle) for doing the same thing. /rant.

[tiam]

The implications of the Miner

The Miner is a newish character that ICE brought out of the grounds of the Azath. In TTH when he was introduced were told he earned the ire of Raest by using metal, causing Raest to shatter his legs and toss him down the mine. He is caught up in the ritual of Tellan but is unable to leave because of the shattering of his legs. Harllo then finds the miner and releases him, allowing him to escape the mine but be trapped in the grounds of the Azath.

In OST he apparently has a flint sword, despite the fact we see him use a strange metallic sword that looks like flint. On oversight by ICE maybe? However here is where it starts getting odd. Raest crippling the miner is fine and tossing him into a pit makes sense. However how is it then that the Miner claims to have met the First long ago, when this was before the Ritual of Tellan and,as far as we know, before the rise of humanity? We hear in GOTM that the city is 2000 years old and there was alot of debate before the book came out if that was going to be changed. I suggested that it would be changed and it would likely be 2000 years since the Tyrant fell, which is pretty much what happened. However if thats the case then D'stan, the Tyrant and the Seguleh must stretch back to the time of the Imass, linking Raest with the very foundation of the city. Supposedly it was born on a rumour of finding Raests tomb but that cant really be right either unless the Tyrant is Raest, thus linking Raest with the Seguleh. The Miner even claims that he wouldnt have crossed the champions back then, suggesting the Agatii structure of the Seguleh was evident when he was around before the Seguleh where exiled.

There is more I could go on about here but it seems that theyre back peddling with alot of what laid down as fact in the early books. Did anyone else notice things along these lines?

This post has been edited by tiam: 20 February 2012 - 10:59 AM

[Cause]

 tiam, on 20 February 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

The implications of the Miner

The Miner is a newish character that ICE brought out of the grounds of the Azath. In TTH when he was introduced were told he earned the ire of Raest by using metal, causing Raest to shatter his legs and toss him down the mine. He is caught up in the ritual of Tellan but is unable to leave because of the shattering of his legs. Harllo then finds the miner and releases him, allowing him to escape the mine but be trapped in the grounds of the Azath.

In OST he apparently has a flint sword, despite the fact we see him use a strange metallic sword that looks like flint. On oversight by ICE maybe? However here is where it starts getting odd. Raest crippling the miner is fine and tossing him into a pit makes sense. However how is it then that the Miner claims to have met the First long ago, when this was before the Ritual of Tellan and,as far as we know, before the rise of humanity? We hear in GOTM that the city is 2000 years old and there was alot of debate before the book came out if that was going to be changed. I suggested that it would be changed and it would likely be 2000 years since the Tyrant fell, which is pretty much what happened. However if thats the case then D'stan, the Tyrant and the Seguleh must stretch back to the time of the Imass, linking Raest with the very foundation of the city. Supposedly it was born on a rumour of finding Raests tomb but that cant really be right either unless the Tyrant is Raest, thus linking Raest with the Seguleh. The Miner even claims that he wouldnt have crossed the champions back then, suggesting the Agatii structure of the Seguleh was evident when he was around before the Seguleh where exiled.

There is more I could go on about here but it seems that theyre back peddling with alot of what laid down as fact in the early books. Did anyone else notice things along these lines?

I wondered about all of these but given the books track records of being able to keep anything straight I simply ignored the inconsistencies rather than trying to give the problem any real though. Thats the problem with this series its no longer even possible to know when strange new revelations are errors or insights.

[tiam]

Like I said I could have went on. Things like Moonspawn coming out of Darkness with Rake is fine, it can be played off as Orchids POV and how she was brought up believing Rake came into Wu with legions of followers when we have an Andiian perspective of it in TTH claiming there was only a handful of followers. It clashes with Rake finding it in the ice fields we see in MOI but thats ok.

But its these characters that have only been introduced in the last few books that provide inconsistencies that really annoy me. Its not like it was a throwaway comment 10 years ago in a book they cant remember it was only released a few years ago. Why have Chaur almost die, have some sort of brain reshuffle, then tell us that he is still a man child?

OST doesnt stand up to a reread aswell as I thought it would. I thought it would be like SW and while tha doesnt come to a satisfying conclusion, it atleast seems beter on a reread. I noticed more this time round, Antsy seeing Orus ship just before he gets to the Spawns and other little hints that make sense but on the whole the Tyrant plotline is still less satisfying than the StormRiders.

Its actually like Dassem throughout SE work. Were introduced to him in HOC and there was alot of speculation about whether he was Dassem, despite the fact we only get confirmation of it as in someone actually calls him the First Sword in TTH. Yet we could piece it together in the same way we could when we first meet Urko. ICE doesnt do that, he doesnt provide enough he just leaves it blank.

This post has been edited by tiam: 20 February 2012 - 12:12 PM

[amphibian]

 Studlock, on 20 February 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:

I find alot of the criticism thrown at ICE is really just nitpicking most of the time which could easily have been done with SE.

There is some degree of nitpicking, yes, but there are more substantive criticisms than you are giving the critics credit for.

Quote

For all the action we've seen on SC we really don't know all the much about the cultures, tribes, cities, so on and so forth and yet we haven't even been to the Moranth's 'home land' of Cloud Forest and people complain we simply don't know enough about them (except of course what we were told in the book which isn't enough I guess).

We did get to see a bit of Cloud Forest through Torvald - which was basically him getting thrown in jail and then released and brought right back out.

Quote

Assial literally looks like the best place to bring all his threads together including the CG, Storm Riders, Malazan, Kiska's, and Kyles, hell I would be surprise if he threw in Seguleh as well. I just find it weird that people give SE praise (the first five books featured three different casts with MoI being the only true 'sequel' with HoC feature a half new cast with a quarter of the book diecated to Karsa) and ICE(who has written three novels and novella which gave us characters previous known plus not that many new characters excluding the CG and has clearly left hints that there is a bigger picture with both the CG, Kiska and Kyle) for doing the same thing. /rant.

Why would the Storm Riders be involved in Assail at all? They had a clean shot to Assail the entire time they were tilting at the Stormwall and chose not to go there. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's odd logic unless they were explicitly chasing Crippled God fragments.

I don't have that much faith in ICE because he's not consistently shown the ability to correctly balance the multi-layered method of storytelling he is attempting. I believe he has massive problems with his editorial process, as in the people involved don't challenge him enough to improve this section or that section (or even bother much with the timeline/prior portrayals beyond Kruppe, Dassem and some of the Malazan characters).

There may be a degree of harshness that you are correctly perceiving, but it doesn't necessarily obviate the criticisms as you are suggesting.

[tiam]

completely pointless nerd rant that didnt really effect the book coming up

How did Mok beat Tool? Before the book came out I was bitching like a girl about how in ROTCG we see the Seguleh fighting style focus on arteries and slicing through ligaments. I then made the point that IB over powered one of the Agatii using his strength rather than his speed. Tool, even as a mortal Imass, is ridiculously strong and is incredibly strong as an undead Imass.

So we see a similar scenario play out in OST. The 6th fighting the Miner. Now somehow the Miner claims he wouldnt have dared faced the champions millennia ago when he met the First, but now hes had time to practice hes interested in challenging Palla. What exactly constitutes practice is beyond me as hes been sat on his arse for 300 000 years, then got some shiny new legs only be entombed in an Azath which has limited sparring space. At the opening of the book we see Raest had recently gotten him back out. What im getting at is hes a swordsman probably on the scale of Onrack and inferior to Tool. Now we see Palla cut him to shreds but eventually tire and were actually told that had the Miner been alive he would have lost by the Miner himself. So the 6th Seguleh against a much inferior swordsman than Tool lost after being worn down. Thus, how did Mok beat Tool with an very similar fighting style? Even Jan who uses a two handed swords fights in the manner of Seguleh when he charges heavily armoured opponents.

Also we see that Blues is the premier swordmaster among the CGRD, yet could be overborne by Lazar Skinner and IBs so its not a question of sheer technique beating Tools strength. We see the longswords Palla uses buckling under the pressure of the Miners 'flint' sword so how did Mok get away with it.

This post has been edited by tiam: 20 February 2012 - 06:01 PM

[limping dog]

 tiam, on 20 February 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

Also we see that Blues is the premier swordmaster among the CGRD, yet could be overborne by Lazar Skinner and IBs so its not a question of sheer technique beating Tools strength. We see the longswords Palla uses buckling under the pressure of the Miners 'flint' sword so how did Mok get away with it.

Mok was 3rd, Palla 6th. It's only 3 positions but I imagine one would need to believe that the differences of skill are greater than say the 500th from the 497th. Also maybe one can assume that the top tier was not once as it was. Almost seems like Jan was toying with the new 3rd before ending his fighting career.

[tiam]

Its not a case of skill and I dont see what Jan has to do with it. Its about actual fighting style which doesnt work against the Imass.

[Aptorian]

It seems to me that the difference lies in terms of the engagement. The Azath Imass was using his considerable strength and damage resistance to wear down Palla. Palla was not able to engage the Imass like a normal sword fighter because any direct counter would have given the same result as Karsa vs the 12th, that being broken wrists and a shattered sword.

Tool, as we know, was a far more honorable fighter. Most likely he faced Mok on the Segulehs terms, that being that he was using skill and speed to try and beat the Seguleh, not his inhuman strength.

Or, Mok was/is just that good. He was, as far as we've been lead to believe, sent away for political reasons. He was a contender for 2nd and it sounds like he might have had the gall to take the 1st. For all we know Mok as well as the 2nd could have been on the cusp of ascendancy lending them even more strength.

[amphibian]

Wasn't the first time that we meet Tool when he explodes out of the dust and slices a redshirt Tribesman dude in half with zero warning?

I'm somewhat kidding here, as I do think there's quite some flexibility in how Erikson and ICE handle Seguleh power-ups in individual duels. Mok probably was on the verge of ascendancy, while Tool was greatly weakened by Silverfox's drawing upon Tellann and trying to engage on the same skill vs. skill level Mok was fighting on, rather than out and out winning like Karsa and Miner Imass.

At elite levels in most sports, not much separates the absolute top from those just below. Slight bits of technique being better, certain physical gifts being superior and/or the tiniest bit of metal speed advantages are what separate elite athletes - usually. Once in a while, you get LeBron James or Michael Phelps though and they have everything and more. Mok might be one of those otherworldly athletes just built to dominate. We know Karsa is one of those for sure.

[Abyss]

The answer is

[Aptorian]

I'll go with Wolverine.

Wolverine is super humanly fast and strong and far, far more durable than Batman because of his skeleton. He has more training in a variety of combat techniques going back to the 18th century. His senses are super human and he can heal a bullet wound in a matter of seconds when his adrenaline is pumping.

I would like to see the argument for how Batman could possibly stand a chance one on one against Wolverine without using gadgets or a super suit. It doesn't even matter if Wolverine didn't bother to block Batmans blows. Wolverines healing factor would repair any physical damage Batman tried to inflict in a matter of seconds. Batman can't break any of Wolverines bones and he can't punch or kick hard enough to knock WOlverine unconscious or cripple him. Spiderman going full out could not punch out wolverine.

[blackzoid]

Batman beat Superman, so he should be able to beat that dirty mutie no problem.

[Illuyankas]

Batman > Punisher
Punisher > Wolverine
Batman > Wolverine

logic